Worried about NFP

[StJudePray4Me]

I am not sure if any of you are sensitive to the fact that I also have my views and beliefs, and those demand respect just as much as the views and beliefs of my fiancée. If I were to force or demand that my fiancée use contraceptives, I would clearly not respect her beliefs. But similarly, if my fiancée were to demand that I do not use contraceptives, that would be disrespectful of my beliefs. She may ask me, and she has, but for the time being I believe we need a backup to NFP. That is my belief, and subsequently my responsibility.

Hi again, Actually, I do respect your beliefs. I don’t think anyone who is not Catholic has any responsibility whatsoever to follow CC teachings, even if they are married to a Catholic.

But I do wonder – why has your fiancee decided to stop using ABC? It seems to me, if you are going to contracept, just do it. Why mess around with safe and unsafe days? I assumed in my other post that her motivation was related to CC teaching, but upon re-reading them, I see that you never actually said that.

 

[GorgerCracker]

Those are not the facts as I see them. We both want to have sex, but simultaneously we want to avoid pregnancy. In the future, we would like to have children. I have taken responsibility for my sexual behavior (using contraception), but that is not a loophole. Taking responsibility for my own behavior is not a loophole. Sex is more pleasurable for both of us without a condom, but this is not the only reason for using a condom. However, I will admit that my motivation for decreasing the fertile phase is mostly due to my wish to avoid using condoms. Given this, and the acceptance of the priest, I cannot see why this would not be an appropriate question. I have put this question to various people, as I think different perspectives will give me more information.

I am not sure if any of you are sensitive to the fact that I also have my views and beliefs, and those demand respect just as much as the views and beliefs of my fiancée. If I were to force or demand that my fiancée use contraceptives, I would clearly not respect her beliefs. But similarly, if my fiancée were to demand that I do not use contraceptives, that would be disrespectful of my beliefs. She may ask me, and she has, but for the time being I believe we need a backup to NFP. That is my belief, and subsequently my responsibility.

One last thing. I do not think it is impossible to stay abstinent in general. I am abstinent now. The question is if this will be a source of irritation and dissatisfaction when we are living together and sleeping together in the same bed. I will tell you one thing for certain, if I have to go to bed with my fiancée for 15 days without release, my sleep will be seriously affected. We have already tried sleeping together while abstaining, and it didn’t work very well…

As Catholics we are morally obligated to tell you that using contraception is a sin. If you want to talk to people who agree with you, I’m sure there are Atheist forums somewhere. They’ll probably support you no matter what you want to do in conjunction with NFP.

 

[Persuader]

Also, the priest you and your fiancee are talking to is preaching heresy if he’s telling you it’s okay to use any sort of contraception.

StJudePray4Me:

But I do wonder – why has your fiancee decided to stop using ABC? It seems to me, if you are going to contracept, just do it.

The priest doesn’t say it’s okay to use contraception, but he is saying that it is my responsibility if I am the user (and subsequently my sin). Obviously, if my fiancée was to use contraception, it would be her responsibility (and her sin). This shouldn’t be difficult to understand.

GorgerCracker:

As Catholics we are morally obligated to tell you that using contraception is a sin.If you want to talk to people who agree with you, I’m sure there are Atheist forums somewhere.

You guys are very strange. I know that contraception is a sin. That was not the question I was asking, or the issue I presented. I was asking if anyone had any tips to decrease the fertile phase, and as a consequence decrease the likelihood of using condoms or at least decrease the use of condoms. I would think this was a good thing, but for most of you it seems like it’s more important to obsess over, judge and critique (although I have gotten a few tips here and on PM) what I want to minimize.

PS: I have put this question to secular people and New Age-people, and the response has been informative. But as I am sure you know, both NFP and FAM have few users, and catholic users are probably the largest group (so it would be stupid not to ask this group).

 

[GorgerCracker]

The priest doesn’t say it’s okay to use contraception, but he is saying that it is my responsibility if I am the user (and subsequently my sin). Obviously, if my fiancée was to use contraception, it would be her responsibility (and her sin). This shouldn’t be difficult to understand.

You guys are very strange. I know that contraception is a sin. That was not the question I was asking, or the issue I presented. I was asking if anyone had any tips to decrease the fertile phase, and as a consequence decrease the likelihood of using condoms or at least decrease the use of condoms. I would think this was a good thing, but for most of you it seems like it’s more important to obsess over, judge and critique (although I have gotten a few tips here and on PM) what I want to minimize.

PS: I have put this question to secular people and New Age-people, and the response has been informative. But as I am sure you know, both NFP and FAM have few users, and catholic users are probably the largest group (so it would be stupid not to ask this group).

Is calling us strange your way of being respectful of other people’s beliefs? You probably feel judged because you have a guilty conscience. It’s not judging someone to tell them they are sinning or intending to sin. It’s one of the spiritual acts of mercy.

Just because you are an Atheist, doesn’t mean that sinning won’t harm you or your marriage.

Secondly, your priest was wrong to advise as he did. He should refuse to marry you. Who knows what his thinking is?

It doesn’t matter if you reduce the number of times you commit grave sins, as long as you firmly intend to go on committing them. And your fiancée does not magically become free of guilt just because you are using a male condom, especially since she knows ahead of time that you intend to do this within the marriage.

As for us being “strange,” that is exactly why you should not marry your fiancée. If she really believes the teachings of the Catholic Church, and if she starts wanting to comply with them, you are going to have a very hard time. And since you find it impossible to follow or respect the principles behind NFP, you’re probably going to find it really annoying if or when she insists you do. This marriage has all the earmarks of another divorce statistic.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

The morality of using condoms aside, I can’t believe the OP is really going to trust condoms during his wife’s known fertile phase! When they “fail” it’s during the fertile phase. The statistics on condom use are for ALL phases. If you’re only using them when she’s fertile, the “failure rate” (hate calling babies “failures” ) is going to be much higher. I predict she’ll be pregnant w/in 6 months (then he’s going to be pissed!). It’s much better to exercise some self control and just abstain (even if it means you have to sleep on the couch during the fertile time. Get a comfortable couch!).

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[crohnie4life]

I know of someone who used a condom w/his girlfriend thinking he’d be safe 100% in not getting her pregnant. Well guess what, she wound up pregnant and he broke up w/her because he didn’t want any of the responsibility that came with raising a child.

He told me and I quote, “When I realized that it failed, it just ruined our relationship…well for me anyway.” When I asked what he meant by how it ruined the relationship he said that when he slept w/his girlfriend, he wasn’t thinking of her needs at all, just his AND he actually believed that most contraception out there is 100% effective. When it failed, he couldn’t handle it or the responsibilities that came with it. I told him that he really should have thought of that before sleeping with her and to have waited until he was married.

It is a well known fact that abstinence is 100% effective in avoiding a pregnancy and contracting STDS, AIDS, and HPV. NFP is 99.9% effective when used correctly to either avoid or conceive. If DH& I can use it successfully to avoid due to my life threatening health issues for 13 yrs. so can the OP and his soon to be bride. Other CAF posters here have been using it as well successfully w/o any complaints b/c we are all committed to the same thing–PUTTING OUR SPOUSES NEEDS FIRST and keeping Christ in the center of the relationship.

I wonder what is going to happen when the OP’s fiance starts perimenopause down the road and her fertility is all over the place for 10 yrs. until menopause. Then what is he going to do? He can’t control her fertility and that is what it sounds like he’s trying to do now. Control it to satisfy his needs w/o thinking about her feelings. What’s going to happen if she has a high risk pregnancy & the MD tells them they can’t be together for a while?? Is he still going to force the issue just so he can get some sleep instead of taking say Tylenol PM or talking to his MD about his “issues”?

The statistics stand for themselves. Condoms are not 100% and if/when she does get pregnant sooner than later, the OP will be in for a surprise. And that is REALISTIC.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

The priest doesn’t say it’s okay to use contraception, but he is saying that it is my responsibility if I am the user (and subsequently my sin). Obviously, if my fiancée was to use contraception, it would be her responsibility (and her sin). This shouldn’t be difficult to understand.

Oh, OK, so I was correct that your fiancee doesn’t want to use ABC due to CC teachings. You’re right, it’s not hard to understand. Since you don’t believe it’s a sin, you’ll take the responsibility, and it has to be condoms since that’s the only ABC that is 100% the guy’s responsibility.

You guys are very strange. I know that contraception is a sin. That was not the question I was asking, or the issue I presented. I was asking if anyone had any tips to decrease the fertile phase, and as a consequence decrease the likelihood of using condoms or at least decrease the use of condoms. I would think this was a good thing, but for most of you it seems like it’s more important to obsess over, judge and critique (although I have gotten a few tips here and on PM) what I want to minimize.

Well, I guess the audience here would tend to be a bit unsympathetic to your plight. And as to it being “good” that you don’t want to use condoms as much, it really depends on your motive. I think you said your motive was not to respect the CC teachings on NFP, but to increase your pleasure.

PS: I have put this question to secular people and New Age-people, and the response has been informative. But as I am sure you know, both NFP and FAM have few users, and catholic users are probably the largest group (so it would be stupid not to ask this group).

Good point. But still, your expectation that people on a Catholic board would not try to convince you that you’re doing the wrong thing is a bit disingenuous. Not to mention, I suspect you might be enjoying these “strange” responses a bit! It may amuse you to see the Catholics get all in a dither, perhaps?

 

[AnneElliot]

Persuader’s fiancee cannot marry him knowing he’s planning on sinning (it doesn’t matter “who takes the blame” for it). Cooperation with sin is still sin. The situation is different if one converts AFTER one is already married and the spouse refuses to consent to the teachings of the Church, but to knowingly enter into a marriage where one KNOWS the spouse will sin is to cooperate in another’s sin, and she would thereby sin herself.

If Persuader is unwilling to embrace the lifestyle his fiancee wants to live, then they should not get married.

 

[FrenchGwen]

Persuader, many helpful things have been said here.

One point I would first like to emphasize is :
as AnneElliott and others have underlined, there is a difference between : being married with a spouse who suddenly decides he wants to use ABC, and having to cope with it AND getting married to somebody who plans on using ABC. So, yes, one thing is clear: if your girlfriend marries you while you’re still in this state of mind, she will be sinning.

But well, NFP and sexuality are difficult, sensitive matters, and to me it is very clear that to somebody who does not believe in the Church teachings, there is no being coerced into following them.
So I will try to put it another way round, not focusing on the moral aspect, but on the couple, psychological aspect: Have you thought about how your fiancee will feel when you will be making love to her ? She will not only be wondering whether she’s sinning or anything. Oh no.

• She will be thinking how, even within this most intimate act, she and her husband are not able to fully be ONE.
• She will be hating this small sheet of rubber who will keep you apart from her.
• She will feel you’re not willing to fully give yourself to her as you are (meaning, as a fertile young man), and to fully accept her (as a fertile young lady). This will lead her to feel (both consciously and unconsciously) she’s being made us of.
• She will hope that, maybe, this time, you will be willing to not use it and be open to life.
• She will begin resenting you.
• She will begin having mixed feelings when you start initiating: being drawn to the togetherness that might be, and yet afraid at the feeling of loneliness that she knows will be.
• She might even show herself more “passionate” in a certain way, in order to make up for these feelings, thinking “if I can’t have the meaning of sex, at least I shall make the most of its pleasure”.

And you both will find yourselves secretly wondering why your sex life is not making you happier, closer.

What I am tellling you is not something I’m imagining to scare you off. It’s what I’ve felt when, during the first months of our marriage, DH and I had a certain tendency to lean towards ABC on some fertile days… Honestly, that’s not something I’m wishing for you. This psychological aspect, and the state of mind that went together with it, made our first months of marriage SO MUCH more difficult. Our young marriage might even have collapsed on it. Because those feelings don’t stop once out of the bedroom. You’re a guy. You’re able to compartimentalize your life, not thinking at work about what you’re doing home. Your future wife will, on the contrary, think of it day after day, hour after hour. Resentment will be stocking up. When at home with you, she will be more prone to getting angry or upset at little things that have nothing to do with the matter. Because, whether or not you acknowledge it, she will be hurt.

 

[Persuader]

"StJudePray4Me:

Good point. But still, your expectation that people on a Catholic board would not try to convince you that you’re doing the wrong thing is a bit disingenuous. Not to mention, I suspect you might be enjoying these “strange” responses a bit! It may amuse you to see the Catholics get all in a dither, perhaps?

Well, I would expect that you would say that it was wrong, but perhaps you would relax and give some practical advice also. Some of you have, after all, so it was well worth my time at this dead-beat summer-job.

Unfortunately, I am not that amused. It seems to me like these types of reactions to my ideas have a strange way of reflecting the opinions of my soon to be MIL. I would expect that she would respect the priest if she heard of this, but after reading your reactions… let’s just say I would rather not risk her catching a whiff of this business.

What I am tellling you is not something I’m imagining to scare you off. It’s what I’ve felt when, during the first months of our marriage, DH and I had a certain tendency to lean towards ABC on some fertile days… Honestly, that’s not something I’m wishing for you.

I respect your experience. If my soon to be wife feels that way, I am confident she will tell me. We have a honest relationship, I think. Nevertheless, I will be on the look-out, and if I suspect that she is experiencing something akin to what you have been, I will try to talk to her and try my best to stay abstinent on her fertile days. However, I have to say that I am not sure that I understand all your points. For instance: if she feels that the condom is a hindrance to our togetherness, it will be many days when the condom will not be used and she will be able to feel this togetherness. Shouldn’t that make up for it? If she feels that I am not accepting her fertility while using a condom, she should feel this acceptance when we do not use it (in her infertile phase). If she doesn’t, she presumably wouldn’t feel that I accepted her fertility if we abstained either. In any case, as long as we are consciously trying to avoid getting pregnant, any method for achieving this will not fully embrace her fertility.

I am, of course, aware that feelings do not always follow reason and logic, so if it is as you say, maybe condoms will not work in this marriage. I will not use condoms if it makes her unhappy. It should be obvious that I wouldn’t marry this girl when there is so many things against us, if it wasn’t for my deep love for her. :yup: PS: I’m still open to tips on NFP-use

 

[newbetx]

Those are not the facts as I see them. We both want to have sex, but simultaneously we want to avoid pregnancy. In the future, we would like to have children. I have taken responsibility for my sexual behavior (using contraception), but that is not a loophole. Taking responsibility for my own behavior is not a loophole. Sex is more pleasurable for both of us without a condom, but this is not the only reason for using a condom. However, I will admit that my motivation for decreasing the fertile phase is mostly due to my wish to avoid using condoms.

Two things here…
First, from your statement it appears that your gf doesn’t understand the meaning of sex and if you are keeping her from the TOB information, you are aiding in the poor catechisis that she has already received.
You are so close… but so far away. Taking control of your actions and responsibility is exactly what TOB is talking about. But, if you use condoms because “you don’t want to control yourself” or “avoid the natural consequences of sex”, then your aren’t in control of yourself.

I am not sure if any of you are sensitive to the fact that I also have my views and beliefs, and those demand respect just as much as the views and beliefs of my fiancée. If I were to force or demand that my fiancée use contraceptives, I would clearly not respect her beliefs. But similarly, if my fiancée were to demand that I do not use contraceptives, that would be disrespectful of my beliefs. She may ask me, and she has, but for the time being I believe we need a backup to NFP. That is my belief, and subsequently my responsibility.
…

Your responsibility is your responsibility whether or not you wish to believe responsibly. Again. I state that I was once where you are. My experience backs up the claims of the church’s teachings. It is unwise to ignore them. Dire consequences are likely to occur.

Secondly. These “differences of opinion” of the basic rules of engagement (pun intended) is the demise of many marriages. Good luck with this. You are still at the 50-50 stage.

One last thing. I do not think it is impossible to stay abstinent in general. I am abstinent now. The question is if this will be a source of irritation and dissatisfaction when we are living together and sleeping together in the same bed. I will tell you one thing for certain, if I have to go to bed with my fiancée for 15 days without release, my sleep will be seriously affected. We have already tried sleeping together while abstaining, and it didn’t work very well…

Are you really, abstinent? I thought I recall you saying you were still doing the “m” thing. If so, you’ve just created a cheap substitute for the real thing until you figure you don’t have to put up with this anymore.

 

[FrenchGwen]

Hello Persuader

If my soon to be wife feels that way, I am confident she will tell me. We have a honest relationship, I think.

I hope so. Yet, yes, be on the look-out, because as for me, it was really difficult even to discern I was feeling this way, and why. It took a long time where I just didn’t understand how the fact that we might “cheat with fertile time” (we didn’t do it that often, but the mere fact that it was something possible, which might come up, was enough) impacted me, and how strong said impact was. Moreover it is difficult to express. So please be aware that the fact that she’s already expressing her wish to stay away from contraception might be her way to express the above feelings : the fact that she’s taking this from the moral angle àla “it’s a sin” does not mean this is the only thing that is bothering her. It may simply be the easier, most neutral way for her to express much deeper feelings. Again, BTDT, I too tended to just say “it’s not right” rather than express that I felt intimately hurt by such behaviour.

For instance: if she feels that the condom is a hindrance to our togetherness, it will be many days when the condom will not be used and she will be able to feel this togetherness. Shouldn’t that make up for it? If she feels that I am not accepting her fertility while using a condom, she should feel this acceptance when we do not use it (in her infertile phase). If she doesn’t, she presumably wouldn’t feel that I accepted her fertility if we abstained either. In any case, as long as we are consciously trying to avoid getting pregnant, any method for achieving this will not fully embrace her fertility.

I understand your not understanding, and I am glad to be able to explain this to you. (I’ll try to make it as clear as possible, please be aware that, since English’s not my mother language, this may explain for some unclear ways of phrasing things).
There are several way of being together. Making love with a condom is like “being half together”. When using a condom, you’re not giving yourself fully, because you keep your own fertility to yourself. If she were to take the Pill, she would’nt be able to give herself fully / you woudn’t be accepting her as she is, because her cycles would be intentionnally altered in order to avoid the consequences of your making love.
But in the fertile time, whenever my DH looks at me with a spark in his eyes and tells me he would soooo much like to make love to me yet shows himself tender in other ways, THAT makes for a powerful feeling of togetherness: we’re together whenever as a couple, together, we face the consequences of our fertility. During fertile time, it is the “not making love” that draws us together because even though we both would like to express our love in a physical way, we’re a team and we support each other in our wish to give every physically intimate moment we share its whole meaning.
KWIM ?

I am, of course, aware that feelings do not always follow reason and logic

Well, if that’s already clear to you, you’ve gone a long way, because indeed that’s the beginning of good communication with a woman.:thumbsup:

so if it is as you say, maybe condoms will not work in this marriage. I will not use condoms if it makes her unhappy. It should be obvious that I wouldn’t marry this girl when there is so many things against us, if it wasn’t for my deep love for her. :yup:

I am very glad to hear that.

 

[FrenchGwen]

PS: I’m still open to tips on NFP-use

And so I will give some, because I know the length of the fertile phase makes temptation more difficult to resist. As for what I wrote just above: the fact that we feel this togetherness even during our fertile phase, you will notice this maybe won’t be the case during the first cycles of your marriage. That’s normal, you’ll be adjusting to a new rythm, and learning to schedule a bit your lovemaking sessions. Once you will be used to “fertile time is when we go out with friends, meet family, and spend couple quality time sharing our hobbies, going to the movies,…” / “infertile time is when we tell our friends we’re already booked, switch the internet and the phone off on some evenings, and get out of work earlier in the evenings”, you’ll get this impression of complicity with your spouse, and fertile time will be filled with joyful expectation and laughters.

As for NFP, for my own experience, we usually have to abstain 7-10 days per cycle (+ during the period, but that last thing depends on the couple. Some are not grossed out by it). I use Billings + temps to crosscheck. But I rely mostly on Billings, using temperature only as a confirmation (and thus not waiting 3 days after the temperature rise since I was able to see how my temperature usually is 2 days late after ovulation, so I would be losing some infertile days). From my experience, here is what is most important and will help you using NFP with success and happiness:

• your fiancee needs to start charting eeeeeveryday NOW, even though things may seem unclear. Getting used to do it everyday is one main key to NFP. It will feel difficult at first, and time-consuming, but after a few months she will realize this has just got into her everyday routine and does not take her more than maybe 3 minutes a day. And it is important that she reads and rereads the pertaining websites and books as often as she has questions, and has somebody to ask those questions to should she remain unable to answer them after reading and rereading.
• you and your fiancee need to get used to talk about this often: NFP will fail you if she feels talking about her cycles bothers you, because if one evening she’s “not that sure”, she will not dare telling you, and you’ll end up being pregnant; So your job is to show as much interest as possible, even though you may, at the beginning, not be very interested / think it quite difficult. Ask her about it, read her charts, tell her you want to understand, and, by the way, take advantage of this great opportunity to marvel at how well thought our bodies are. AAAAnd you will understand your wife’s general behaviour and states of mind better, as those are often dependent on where in her cycle she stands. (DH has become able to feel less “a failure of a husband” when I just can’t seem to stop crying 2 days a month. Now he knows it not his fault, and that the only thing I need from him are hugs and nice words until my period’s here).
• the first months of your marriage are the decisive ones. They are the ones where you will need to be extra careful, because your wife will have to adapt her observations from a “not having intimate relationships state” to a “having them state”. This may lead to some doubts, especially regarding the beginning of the fertile period (most women are able to detect the end of their fertile period quite easily once they have understood the method). So, the tricky thing being to detect the moment when your wife becomes fertile, I advise you to use a “when a doubt, assume we’re fertile” rule. I have to warn you: such a rule (+ the fact that the wedding stress messed up my first post-wedding cycle) led us to a 15 days abstinence 2 weeks after being married. But being that careful enabled us to feel more confident, and to check that, anyway, I still had plenty of days where there was no doubt, so that after a few months we were able to revert the rule to “when in doubt, assume we’re not fertile”. So, basically: being more abstinent than absolutely necessary during the first few months will enable you to reduce the abstinence for the rest of the time…