Worried.

[fabricdragon]

God doesnt condemn anyone to Hell for not having certainty…
in fact, if you read the Bible it usually seems that people condemn themselves to Hell.

There are plenty of cases of people who, despite evidence in front of them, did not believe in something… whether that was God or something totally different. and cases of people who “knew something to be true” without evidence (and i am not only referring to God, there have been some very interesting cases in Physics and Electrical Engineering…)

IF you genuinely do not know… you doubt… you want the answer… then i suggest you ask for it.
seriously
pray to God to help you to understand, to find faith or answers. i also suggest you try praying teh Rosary… for that matter, even if you dont like the Rosary as a prayer its got a fascinating history…

oh, and i dont know how i could present “evidence” for anything, really. you dont know who i am… you dont have proof that anything i say is real… at some point you have to decide to take a risk and believe something whether that is that God is real, or that He isnt, or whatever.

and you are letting some of the negativists get you with false arguments.
God doesnt “send people to Hell for not believing in Him”
God does everything He can to save people from Hell, including sending his Son to die on the cross. If you read your Bible, and read the books about what Catholics believe, you pretty much have to walk to Hell over a series of roadblocks saying “turn back!”

 

[jayeffem]

It just saddens me that if God does exist, the ratio of people in heaven to those in hell must be somewhere around 1:1,000,000. The only thing that people who have posted that yes - if you do not believe in God when you die you will go to hell - have done is affirm my suspicions that God is either nonexistent or wholely malevolent.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence comet evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicurus

 

[Lorrie]

Hi jayeffem,

I’m actually in the same boat as you right now, and have been for a few months when it comes to questioning everything. I actually started a thread on it recently.

I think it’s only logical to ask the questions you’re asking. Do I have the answers? No. Does anyone have the answers? No, not concrete answers at least. All anyone can do is speculate. Almost every thread I see here on the forums requires some sort of answer when it comes to this or that. It takes a lot for me not to simply reply to every thread with: “All anyone can do is speculate.”

I admire anyone who has strong faith, after all, to believe is to have faith, it’s a basic requirement. My faith has been lessening here lately because I question things like creationism compared to evolutionism, if God/Jesus exists why not let yourself be seen by everyone as opposed to creating situations where there’s possible doubt? Was it God or coincidence? If God so desperately wants everyone to believe in Him why not go that extra mile to prove, absolutely, that You exist?

Is there a heaven or hell? All anyone can do is speculate.
What happens when we die? All anyone can do is speculate.
Is the Bible really God’s word? All anyone can do is speculate.
The list could stretch a mile.

I have absolutely no advice for you as I am, like I said, in the same boat as you. I felt bad the first time I started questioning things, but that slowly disappeared as it’s only natural (and logical) to ask questions especially when it comes to something this important.

 

[fabricdragon]

one of the many things that attracted me about Catholicism is the fact that “questioning” as long as its done without rudeness, is actively encouraged.

i suspect the best people to talk to would be jesuits, who apparently train in debate.

for myself? simply put… I have never doubted that there was “something” or “someone” beyond us… my only question was who and what. this puts me in a different question than someone who honestly can say they do not believe in God/Gods/spirit

in my own case? one of the best arguments i ever heard about Christ and Christianity was this:
something took a bunch of cultists who had scattered like quail and hidden from everyone in back rooms. speaking to no one… denying they even knew the man…after their “messiah” was brutally executed, and turned them into a group of people willing to stand up and be heard.
people who were willing to face death without even a qualm.
and how the heck did a visibly, publicly shamed , brutalized, dead “messiah” who obviously had NOT led the Jewish people to their kingdom…not get overlooked for the next “messiah” to come along (there had after all been several uprisings and rebellion leaders among the Jews)
suddenly… suddenly there are mass conversions? after the guy was killed??? instead of following the next one to come along like they always had before?

and within a couple of years of his death we have Jewish records… from the Pharisees and more… of a new “Jewish cult” that was violating Jewish precepts and dealing with Gentiles and more…
and ROMANS became followers…
in a matter of a handful of years after his executions…

what could possibly take a bunch of people who were looking for someone who was supposed to overthrow Rome and restore the Jewish kingdom, and who disbanded after their leaders ignoble death… into a group of people who actually reached out to proselytize the Romans and non Jews… and preached a Kingdom that was not of this earth… and to heck with the idea of Jewish Sovereignty.

oh there is more… but thats the part that really got me.
as to the writings?
it was written about… but usually as a “Jewish Cult” because until much later thats all the Roman authorities knew of it… and the Jewish writers wrote of it mostly as a heretical group… because thats how they saw it.

 

[d_erford]

That is an excellent question!

Th fact that there are such a myriad of religions, and not just in monotheism, but in all world religions, kinda leads us to conclude that no one really knows the truth…if god wants us all to be saved, why confuse the **** out of us?

That is not a necessary logical conclusion. If there are 100 people yelling “I am Spartacus”, that does not mean that none of them are Spartacus, even if the other 99 are deluded. Likewise, simply because many difference religions claim to know the truth does not prove that none of them know it.

And who says God is the one who has confused us? Humans are responsible for the misleading. You may ask why does God not overpower so as to remove all doubt. The only way He could do that is to overtake our free wills because we are always susceptible to self-delusion and being mislead. For example, Jesus performed many miracles that would seemingly convince anyone that He was who He claimed He was, but people still did not believe, whether out of jealousy, unmet personal expectations, etc. But God does not overtake our free wills because He wishes us to love Him, and being forced to “love” is not really love.

 

[d_erford]

It just saddens me that if God does exist, the ratio of people in heaven to those in hell must be somewhere around 1:1,000,000. The only thing that people who have posted that yes - if you do not believe in God when you die you will go to hell - have done is affirm my suspicions that God is either nonexistent or wholely malevolent.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence comet evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicurus

Malevolent: having or showing a wish to do evil to others. There is an error in both your last sentence and the quote from Epicurus. Simply because God ALLOWS evil and suffering does NOT mean He wishes those things on people. Could He stop all evil? Yes, but not without destroying our free will. He respects our free will so much (because love must be freely chosen in order for it to be authentic) that He allows evil and suffering, while also knowing that at the same time, He can make greater good come from it. Would your father be loving you if he handcuffed you to your bed at all times so that you wouldn’t go out into the world where you could possibly get hurt? In the same way, our Father will try to guide us but allows us to make decisions, even if they are the wrong ones. Yet, He will also always be there for you to come back to.

 

[Luke_K]

It just saddens me that if God does exist, the ratio of people in heaven to those in hell must be somewhere around 1:1,000,000. The only thing that people who have posted that yes - if you do not believe in God when you die you will go to hell - have done is affirm my suspicions that God is either nonexistent or wholely malevolent.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence comet evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicurus

The centuries-old answer to this dilemma is that

1. God created us to love him
2. Free will is necessary for love.
3. God provides us with this free will, thus allowing us to do evil to ourselves and others.
4. God does not allow any evil to be committed without creating a greater good out of it had the evil not been committed.

#4 may be the toughest one to believe, but the best example is the Fall of Man. God allowed the Fall to happen, but through the Incarnation and Jesus’ sacrifice and resurrection we now have the opportunity to be in an even better state than we were before the Fall.

Regarding your trouble with non-believers who do good works yet go to hell, remember that God deserves to be loved just as much/greater than our fellow human beings. I hope this doesn’t upset you, but humans are not an end unto themselves. Secular humanism is not the answer.

 

[GrahamAPhone]

God doesn’t ‘allow’ bad things to happen. He loves us so much that he respects that he gave us free will, and we screw up, constantly, and after the fall, the world has been askew, and accepting God, and Jesus doesn’t make things easier, in fact, its harder, but you do it anyways, because you love God…
Ha ha, the first part was relevant

 

[fhansen]

I am a catholic teenager and I have a question that has been deeply distressing me. I am not entirely sure if God exists. To me, it just doesn’t seem possible. I wish that I felt otherwise, and I can say that I do, but I just cannot at this time, embrace a God that would allow all the terrible things in this world to happen. Please do not respond to the preceding sentence, I do not wish for help in embracing God, as I am hoping that later in my life I may be brought closer to Him. The following is my real question: If I never in my lifetime accept that God is real, will I go to hell regardless of how well I lived my life? For example, if I live my entire life according to the Bible, am a genuinely good person, and always do my best to help others and make the world a better place, will that not count for anything? Will I go to hell no matter how good of a person I am, just because I don’t believe that God exists? This has me seriously distressed, because assuming God exists, and he is omniscient, just saying that I accept Him will not be enough, as I can’t lie to Him, and I can’t change the way I feel. Please help, I am very worried and distressed that my entire life ahead of me could be meaningless.

(I am also not entirely sure if this thread belongs in the moral theology subsection, it was just the first one that I was at)

To put it in general terms, the reason we must believe in God is simply that our very happiness depends on it. Man is born into the unnatural state of not believing in, let alone knowing God as a result of his rebellion against Him. To come to know and love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength is to enter into eternal beatitude. And Jesus is the way to God, demonstrating His nature, will, and love.

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love. St. John of the Cross

 

[choy]

It just saddens me that if God does exist, the ratio of people in heaven to those in hell must be somewhere around 1:1,000,000. The only thing that people who have posted that yes - if you do not believe in God when you die you will go to hell - have done is affirm my suspicions that God is either nonexistent or wholely malevolent.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence comet evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicurus

i did not see that in my post, did you read my post?

God is loving. you don’t have to put your 100% trust in Him right away. He knows what you are feeling, all you have to do is open up and let Him show you what He is all about.

faith is never meant to be blind. all these questions you have is an opportunity to explore the religion you are in and why you are doubting it now. hopefully you find the right answers. as long as you remain open, God can enter your life and show you the right way

 

[teachccd]

Is your question: Does God exist? or Is the God that exists the God that has the characteristics of love?

These are two very distinctive questions and have very different answers. If you truly believe that God does not exist then you have way more faith than I ever could have. You see I believe that God spoke and creation leaped into existence. an atheist believes that something came form nothing. That is a leap of faith that I could never reach. Even if you regress to the primordial gas or soup that erupted in the “big bang” you still need to regress further to find the origins of that “soup”. Was it eternal? Was it created? You have to pick one and then be satisfied that there is absolute proof that your choice is correct.

Is our God a God of love? Now that would take a while since much evidence shows to the contrary at times. If you were to remove all of the evil in this world what would you have left? Now in order to understand evil we have to look at our human condition. We are creatures that act on individual choices. Everything that we do is a choice. My writing this right now is a choice. Evil is a result of a choice against human dignity and love. Evil is not a thing, it is a result. If all humans chose to respect human dignity and to love everyone then there would be no consequential evil. So, back to my question, if you removed all evil you would only have love. God created us out of love and gave us free will as a gift so that we would not be robots. We choose freely to love or to hate. That is our gift.

Faith is an entirely dofferent matter. If you are following me here I will continue to post other wise tell me that I am all wet and I will let you be. My prayers are with you since I see your post as a step in your journey back to God. If you had full consent attached to your choice you would not be here. Your light is on. It just needs some fuel…teachccd

 

[4EverHis]

Hi there… I can’t say where you will go as that is God’s decision, but keep in mind that if a person rejects faith in God, it can be very difficult for them to accept other graces. In the Bible it says that without faith we can’t please God, and that’s not because we’re saved by “faith alone” as the Protestants say; we are not, but rather because faith is what gives our actions their meritorious value…when we do them out of love for God. Christianity is a transformation…it’s not just about being a nice person, but a person who cooperates with grace. And that is how we are saved. You said that you’re open to looking more into faith later on in life, if you’ll be ready, but how do you know you will be ready, unless you take steps now? Just being honest with you… remember that faith is a choice, not a feeling. Faith isn’t “fake” if it happens to go against what you feel at the moment!!! that is a big illusion that people have sometimes… God looks at our choices, not our feelings. You won’t be “lying” to God or to yourself… ask God to increase your faith and be open to that possibility.

I’m sorry you’re struggling and I wish I could help you in some way
Have you ever read anything by CS Lewis… for example, “Mere Christianity”, or “Problem of Pain.” The last book deals with the question you have… why would God allow suffering. Trust me that’s a question many people have struggled with, but it’s also a question that many have found an answer to. Remember that suffering doesn’t come from God…it comes from our sinful world, and we sinned through our own choice. God didn’t want this to happen. But now that sin is here…and now that suffering is here… Christ has taken it all upon Himself on the Cross… and when we suffer, He gives us the grace to suffer with Him and then rewards us for this. In other words, God takes our suffering, which is something that’s bad in itself, and turns it to good. The Catholic teaching on suffering is really quite profound… we can be sanctified through it. The Saints even saw it as a gift. Even though, in itself, it’s not of God… He still uses it. I really suggest researching the Catholic view of suffering and thinking carefully about it.

Here is a quote by St Padre Pio:

“Listen here… as a child, when you sat at your mother’s feet on a small stool, what did you see of her embroidery? From the wrong side you saw nothing that you could make out and understand, zig zag lines, threads this way and that. It made no sense to you at all. You were sitting on a low stool. You were looking at the embroidery from the wrong side. All the threads were confused in your eyes, and so you asked your mother what she was doing, what design, what pattern. You asked, “Mother, may I know?” and you asid, “I can’t make it out.” To answer you then, your mother lowered the embroidery, turning it for you to the right side. Then you were able to see the design and finally you understood it. So there. We see the wrong side of the work because we are sitting on a low stool”

here are some more things the Saint said, I think they’re all very wise:
padrepiodevotions.org/wordsoffaith.asp
maybe you could read about his life it’s full of miracles. It’s hard for me not to believe in God when I read about such people. You can see Him in their lives.

one day we will look back on all the suffering and it will make sense and if we had kept our faith, we would be glad, that we believed though “we did not see”. Prayers for you…

God bless.

 

[4EverHis]

Thank you all for replies, however, I just don’t understand why a just and loving God would sentence me to hell just because He did not provide enough evidence for His own reality.

God provides evidence all the time, we just need to be willing to accept it

if a person’t isn’t willing to believe, and if they’re not willing to accept the evidence that is given, nothing would convince them. Even if they were to see God,they’d think He’s just a hallucination. And be careful about wanting to see God…we are not READY to see Him…that is why we do not. Our souls are too weak. This time on earth, it’s a preparation for what is to come. But the more you believe in Him, the more real He will be to you, and eventually you’ll be oki with not having proof…your faith will be proof. The way He’s changed your life will be proof. I know God is real because He changed me.

Definitive proof of existence. Something that I can feel or see or hear. A 2000 year old work of fiction just doesn’t cut it. Nor do accounts of miracles. If God wishes for me to believe in Him, why not just make Himself known to me and everyone else?

God wants us to choose to love Him and believe in Him… He wants free children, not a colony of ants what use is love and faith if it’s not chosen? it’s very weak that way… God wants us our faith to be stronger than that!

let me tell you something…we believe in God though we do not see…but as we grow in our faith, we begin to see. He becomes very real to us. I know that God is real because I know Him. I used to doubt, but I don’t anymore. it just takes time. First when I read the Bible, it seemed like fiction to me too. But once i got to know God better, it came alive for me.

what would happen to a person who denied God all their life and then they meet Him? they would only feel shame and grief but if they did believe, they would feel joy. There is so much merit in faith. That is how we grow… when we don’t see God, but yet still trust Him, the devil can’t do anything with us… we become so much stronger. That is why we need faith and not just evidence. This time here on earth…it’s given to us so that we may learn how to love God and how to believe. God bless.

 

[joannazenobia]

What you are going through is absolutely normal. Faith is a life long journey with lots of ups, downs, and doubts. We ALL doubt. Mother Angela on EWTN said this with a very emphathetic heart once.

You know, believe it or not, the story of Creation is also a metaphor of our faithful life. We are born into God’s great world and love and obey him. Once we get older, and reach the age of reasoning we start to learn an abundance of worldly knowledge and that’s when we start to question things. Then we get to a point where all of us start thinking like teenagers where we think we know everything about our physical world and don’t need our parents to baby us every step of the way (LOL no offense). Its not a coincidence that now you are a teenager, understand the world a bit more, that you question why he would allow suffering? All of us reach this stage of our faith when we start doubting. This is all part of your faith formation.

I empathize.

See, our relationship with God is like mine with my two little children. Even if they deny me, I will always love my children with all my heart, just like God will always love you. Don’t ever forget that. So even if there comes a time when you don’t believe in him, he still believes in you.

As a mother, I know there is going to come a time when my two little girls will be women and they will not need me or want me around…BUT…when they are ready, I will be here waiting for them with open arms no matter what happens.

 

[joannazenobia]

What you are going through is absolutely normal. Faith is a life long journey with lots of ups, downs, and doubts. We ALL doubt. Mother Angela on EWTN said this with a very emphathetic heart once.

You know, believe it or not, the story of Creation is also a metaphor of our faithful life. We are born into God’s great world and love and obey him. Once we get older, and reach the age of reasoning we start to learn an abundance of worldly knowledge and that’s when we start to question things. Then we get to a point where all of us start thinking like teenagers where we think we know everything about our physical world and don’t need our parents to baby us every step of the way (LOL no offense). Its not a coincidence that now you are a teenager, understand the world a bit more, that you question why he would allow suffering? All of us reach this stage of our faith when we start doubting. This is all part of your faith formation.

I empathize.

See, our relationship with God is like mine with my two little children. Even if they deny me, I will always love my children with all my heart, just like God will always love you. Don’t ever forget that. So even if there comes a time when you don’t believe in him, he still believes in you.

As a mother, I know there is going to come a time when my two little girls will be women and they will not need me or want me around…BUT…when they are ready, I will be here waiting for them with open arms no matter what happens.

I wanted to add that you sound like a very, very normal Christian to me. The fact you are worried about going to hell is proof that you are still holding on to God. (You don’t hear about athiest worried about hell, right?)

 

[Bailey2]

Now I will admit I haven’t read all these posts so I don’t know if this was said. Teresa of Calcutta doubted God’s existence until her death. And I believe upon the Resurrection, St. Thomas said, “I believe. Lord help my unbelief.” If you posted this worry and you are a part of this believing community forum, there is already a part of you who believes in God. Our experiences of unbelief (we all have them, admitted to our not), are simply part of the human condition. God is beyond us. Live as if you believe. Belief in your own way will come.