Worsening states in Purgatory?

[AndyF]

Is it possible to worsen one’s state in purgatory?

Say after 1000 years of doing time out of a max of 2000, a person is behaving himself while being ridiculed, and buffeted around by demons(hang with me, I’m trying to drum up a hypothetical with nothing to go on.), and generally being harassed in a purgatorial type manner, then one day he lets out of few expletives, or actually makes the equivalent of an earthly class of sin, or goes beserk with blasphemous words and general nut house mischief, does he get time added for his behaviour, or does he go to hell(solitary?) for a few years to “cool” off, or, the dreaded the Reverse Jacket?

But seriously, (taking a break) that’s not to far fetched, as the sensual nature of ourselves is also felt, so why can’t displays of frustration be real and expected as well, after all it is punishment. But then again I suppose one would need to be on his best behaviour, hard to do where punishments are on a spiritual scale, and times measured in thousands/hundreds of years, and provocative annoyances are also spiritual, the invisible demons playing “Guess who hit You” any chance they can.

For perspective, we know that in heaven after being beatified to the degree a person is justified, then all desires are oriented to God, so external influences or irritants are non existant.

In hell it’s a free-for-all and every crime is reenacted along with some mankind hasn’t even heard of, so we know that there it doesn’t really matter.

For those who agree and consider added time possible, how does that reconcile with the creationist Devine plan. Wouldn’t that be the creation of an earthly test bed of sorts, thus starting the process all over again, albeit on another plane of existance?

For those who don’t, what are the limiting factors in purgatory. Can you spend your time making others miserable with no one to take you to account for it, and still guaranteed heaven in the end? (Personally, this world looks a lot like earth, doesn’t it?:banghead

Then we can go on into the various beliefs. Some feel purgatory is a limited stay in hell. Anyone monitoring behaviour there is due for disappointment. “Dang, we put him there 1000 years ago, and I could have sworn I heard him whimper a complaint, well, he certainly doesn’t look like a candidate for heaven”.

Some describe it has a desolation, where zombie like people walk around pondering the meaning of life and existance.(just occured to me, that wouldn’t be much of a punishment for us guys. Ha! They’d have to rip the monitors from our puters.! Our behaviour would be…errrr, debatable.
Actually we’d probably drive the demons nuts in our own way.!

 Was just wondering.

 AndyF

 

[elvisman]

AndyF -
I think that your perception of Purgatory is a little skewed - perhaps by literature and/or pop culture.
Many people think of it in terms of time, whereas St. Peter tells us that in heaven "a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day." In any case, Purgatory is not a mini version of hell where we are tormented by demons.
Purgatory is not so much a place of horrible suffering as it is a state of being cleansed before entering Heaven. I am not saying that we won’t suffer, but we should only hope that we make it to Purgatory.
C.S. Lewis, although a protestant said that God’s mercy and the state of our souls demands purgatory.
Here is an indication of the state of purgatory from St. Paul:

1 Cor. 3:12-15
"If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

---

God Bless,

 

[AndyF]

AndyF -
I think that your perception of Purgatory is a little skewed -

Could be. But I think we could agree it IS punishment, albeit to make amends.

It occured to me we will still be able to express some emotion, some disappointment, otherwise what would it’s purpose be. Finding no challenge to this reasoning so far, it follows that there must be some degree of tolerance for each individual, and a limit as to what one could take, that is, a limit within the confines of what our material nature can accept. Of course it will not matter, and what we can take won’t limit what is dispensed.

Many people think of it in terms of time

Wouldn’t it’s purpose become the instrument of punishment out of many that could be used, the length of which gets to be “felt”.? Of course it would be different if they mean we get to fall into some deep cryogenic like sleep only to wake up and find our sentencing is complete. With time applied it’s the same reasoning and application, and doesn’t take away application of a stimulus to affect the senses.

Purgatory is not a mini version of hell where we are tormented by demons.

Are you saying this view is finally Fides Ecclesiastica. If so, then I’ve been out of touch with the latest pronouncements. It was my understanding the jury was still out, and was still category Sententia Communis .

I’m sorry, I can’t see how 1 Cor 3:12-15 refers to purgatory or it’s description.

Thank you for the post and the references.

AndyF

 

[Melanie01]

Dante has a lot to answer for…is purgatory on the edge of Hell…

rather see purgatory as a suburb of Heaven, you are saved but through your sins and imperfect contrition, you are scrubbing the stains away from your soul before entering the Beatific Vision…your would not want to meet God grubby heh

 

[petra]

rather see purgatory as a suburb of Heaven, you are saved but through your sins and imperfect contrition, you are scrubbing the stains away from your soul before entering the Beatific Vision…your would not want to meet God grubby heh

I have a similar perspective—that Purgatory is actually the entrance or foyer to heaven. We all pass through the cleansing fire and those with unremitted temporal consequences will feel the heat as that dross is burnt away. 1 Cor 3:12-15 is an excellent scriptural reference to this fact.

Andy, Purgatory has nothing to do with hell, and there will not be demons there. It is a holy place, and the fire is not hellfire, but God’s holiness.

 

[LilyM]

What the OP is suggesting is that it possible for us to in effect keep on sinning after death :bigyikes: since the only thing that could add to our time/severity of Purgatory would be further sin.

This is totally contrary to what Catholicism teaches about what happens after you die - there is no further opportunity either for sin or (most likely) for repentance from sin. Your time for such things would appear to be up when you die.

 

[AndyF]

Petra, LilyM:

It was my understanding that the description of Purgatory was still in the theological arena, and probably in the field, but not necessarily* Sententia Communis*.

Can you both supply reference dogma to support your views.? If so, that is good news.

1 Cor 3:12-15 is an excellent scriptural reference to this fact.

This passage makes reference to duty. It refers to Paul’s work as it differentiates from work of the community. Nothing in it implies that it is a metaphor of Purgatory.

AndyF

 

[LilyM]

No - everyone who is in Purgatory is assured ultimately of going to heaven, that IS dogma - from the CCC:

***III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 **All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.* [my emphasis]

So there is no possibility of transfer from purgatory to hell, which means no transfer between ‘levels’ of purgatory either (since both would require that free will still be present)

 

[AndyF]

LilyM:

No - everyone who is in Purgatory is assured ultimately of going to heaven, that IS dogma.

I agree. But if dogma claims that everyone still has his senses, which would need to exist to feel some punishment, and still has the option to mentally process the suggestion/desire/act sequence, then there would need to be some limiting factor, otherwise his falibility assures the probability, not necessarily that he will, make things worse for him. In an assured environment the probability is a potential hindrance and unwelcome.

This is what I meant by dogma, additional to what is already known, and that is that being there assures eventual acceptance to heaven. There is no argument there. However, we need to reconcile these others factors about our physical nature and the limitations and freedoms it imposes within the given environment the purgatoree(?) finds himself.

I can just as well say the purpose for prison is to have the offender make amends and prepare him for society, but he isn’t tied to a chair. He has free movement and can still cause. So then we need to ammend our purpose to say it is only a desire that this purpose become a reality.

So here we have in our hypothetical case one who after a 1000 years lets out a few expletives. How is this handled by the celestial juducial system in an assured scenerio.?

1/ It could he is restricted in what he can cause.
2/ The transgression is ignored.
3/ He finds himself with added sentencing.(original case)
4/ His natural faculties are altered. His state is made ready for the environment. (purgatorial?)
5/ Everyone there is only on a receptive end.
etc,

In summation, it’s a hypothetical of what is allowed wthin the confines of what is dogma, provided the natural factors I mention are also allowed in purgatory.

BTW: The first sin was committed out of earth’s environment.

AndyF

 

[StCsDavid]

I folks here treating Purgatory to be a stand-alone place versus a state of existence. The discussion seems to lose sight of the fact that Earth, Purgatory, Heaven and even Hell are interwoven in their existence and that we, as eternal beings created by God, are part of that eternal existence. One day Earth will pass away as will Purgatory as both are transitory states of being.

 

[AndyF]

StCsDavid:

Purgatory: (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.(NewAdvent.org)

Could be either.

In any case it would have to be an environment where one feels less comfortable, is not entirely content,etc. In other words if heaven is the standard in maximum contentment and sensual fullfillment, then Purgatory would need to be a place where the individual senses a lesser degree of contentment. If his senses are intact, in what other ways can he make us of what his senses present to him.? Can he think evil thoughts? Can he conceptualize the sentence, “Sh**, been here 1000 years, I’m so mad I’d like to beat the cr$% out of someone here”.? Is his intellect unhindered? Are his mental faculties intact?

AndyF

 

[Andruschak]

 Was just wondering.

 AndyF

No, but this opinion is based on the books concerning Purgatory written by Susan Tassone. Her books give (in my opinion) a faithful rendering on current concepts of Purgatory. They also show ways for us to help the souls in purgatory, since they are unable to help themselves. So I do

And sometimes I wonder if, in some way, it has been Mother Mary pushing me into all this, since the practice of praying for the Holy Souls seems to have dropped off, and she wants me to help take up some of the slack

 

[LilyM]

StCsDavid:

Could be either.

In any case it would have to be an environment where one feels less comfortable, is not entirely content,etc. In other words if heaven is the standard in maximum contentment and sensual fullfillment, then Purgatory would need to be a place where the individual senses a lesser degree of contentment. If his senses are intact, in what other ways can he make us of what his senses present to him.? Can he think evil thoughts? Can he conceptualize the sentence, “Sh**, been here 1000 years, I’m so mad I’d like to beat the cr$% out of someone here”.? Is his intellect unhindered? Are his mental faculties intact?

AndyF

Well, for starters we’ll never know unless we go there - no-one’s come back to tell us so it’s total speculation on all sides.

We have been told by numerous saints that those in heaven, even when they see those they may have loved in life being punished in hell, are so at one with God’s own heart, mind and will that they willingly accept His perfect justice.

I imagine those who end up in Purgatory know full well why they are there, and how much their sins deserve not just Purgatory but worse. In fact all our sins deserve Hell and it’s only through God’s grace and Christ’s sacrifice that any of us are saved. All this being the case, they probably wouldn’t complain.

 

[steve99]

Purgatory is primarily a place of purification since nothing impure can enter heaven. That purification may be painful as we let go of the things we cling to, like pride, lust, anger, etc.

However there is also punishment. But as LilyM pointed out this is not to be comapted to the punishment of the damned.
1031** The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned*.* [my emphasis].

In the Catechism we find mention of punishment not in the section on purgatory but in that on indulgences.
“To understand this doctrine and practices of the Church [Indulgences] it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God, and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the ‘eternal punishment’ of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial sin, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures [this means all created things not just living creatures], which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This punishment frees one from what is called the ‘temporal punishment’ of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but following on from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain a complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.” (CCC1472). (my comments in ….] brackets)

In the section on punishment (by the State) the Catechism says “The primary effect of punishment is to redress the disorder caused by the offence. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it take in the value of expiation” (CCC 2266). The Collins Concise Dictionary defines expiate as “to atone for (sin or wrongdoing); make amends for.”

The Church teaches about purgatory in terms of punishment, not only in the Indulgences section of the Catechism, but also in the Apostolic Constitution of Paul VI on Indulgences (Jan 1 1967).
**“It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God’s sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or ‘purifying’ punishments” **(chap 1, para 2).

Our Protestant brethren argue that we cannot atone for our sins, only Jesus can, and that he made full atonement for all our sins.
“My children, I am writing this to prevent you from sinning; but if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the upright. He is the sacrifice to expiate our sins, and not only ours, but also those of the whole world.” (1 Jn 2:1)

To understand this we have to return to two of the liabilities of sin, to the liability of punishment and the liability of restitution. “I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless.” (Is 13;11). Judgment pertains even to the smallest sins: “For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.” (Eccl. 12:14)’

If I do something wrong, for example steal a car, I am liable for punishment for that, I also have a duty to return the car to the rightful owner, or to compensate him/her if I am unable to do that.
Part 2 follows

 

[steve99]

Part 2

We also need to understand the notion of satisfaction.
In the section on Satisfaction (CCC 1459) the Catechism defines three effects of sin:
1.Wrong we have done to others, which we should do what is possible to redress.
2.Weakens our relationship with God
3.Spiritually weakens/damages the sinner himself.
It says “Absolution [forgiveness] takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin; he must ‘make satisfaction for’ or ‘expiate’ his sins. This satisfaction is called ‘penance’” (CCC 1459). However it goes on to say “Such penances help to configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our since once for all.” (CCC 1460).

The quote from the Catechism at the start of this section talks about the double consequence of sin. Firstly the eternal punishment (i.e. forever in hell) and temporal punishment (for a time).

If I commit a mortal sin I am turning my back on God and rejecting his love and his grace. The punishment for this is infinite since it lasts for ever. There is no way I can ever expiate this. When I repent and turn back to God I appropriate the atonement of Christ, since only he can pay (and has paid) the price for this.

If I commit a venial sin I have not turned away from God, but, as it says above, I have weakened my relationship with him. I have also turned **towards **something else, some created thing.

By our repentance and God’s forgiveness we restore that relationship with God that was either lost totally in mortal sin, or damaged in venial sin. But though the relationship may be restored the debt of sin remains. Take the case of a child who has been told not to play near the house with a hard ball. He does so, and smashes a neighbour’s window. He may say sorry and his father forgives him and they are fully reconciled, but there may still be a punishment for his disobedience, and restitution has to be made for the broken window.
But we may ask, and Protestants do, has not Christ paid all our debts by his suffering and death on the cross? Yes he has as we saw in the quote 1Jn 2:1 above. And also I have said that removes both the liability of guilt and the liability of punishment. But, and there is a but.

But that expiation for our sins is not given without some cost on our side. God does not give us a license to commit (venial) sins with impunity. To acquire that payment of our debts we have to join with Christ in his suffering on the cross, or to be “configured with Christ” (as the Catechism puts it), or be “likened unto Christ” as St. Thomas Aquinas puts it.

He says **“In order to secure the effects of Christ’s Passion, we must be likened unto Him. Now we are likened unto Him sacramentally in Baptism, according to Rom 6:4 ‘For we are buried together with Him by baptism into death.’ Hence no punishment of satisfaction is imposed upon men at their baptism since they are fully delivered by Christ’s satisfaction. But because it is written (1.Pt 3:18), ‘Christ died’ but ‘once for our sins,’ therefore a man cannot a second time be likened unto Christ’s death by the sacrament of Baptism. Hence it is necessary that those who sin after Baptism be likened unto Christ suffering by some form of punishment or suffering which they endure in their own person; yet, by the co-operation of Christ’s satisfaction, much lighter penalty suffices than one that is proportionate to the sin.”

** Take the example above, of the child and the broken window. He cannot afford to pay for the broken windows, and his father may pay the cost of repairing the window, but he may stop the child’s pocket money for a week as a punishment and as the child’s contribution to the restoration of the disorder he has caused