Worship as Evangelism?

[jbelokur]

I was just wondering what the prevailing thought among protestants is concerning the design of your worship services for the purpose of evangelism ie. “reaching the lost” . Evangelism mind you is quite obviously a worthy pursuit and is mission of Christ’s Church, but, to what extant is it to play a part in the worshiping of almighty God?

Here is an article from the Democrat and Chronicle concerning a new “church plant”. Notice in particular the major features of their worship services as observed by the author of this article.

Service-oriented church opens between tattoo parlor, liquor store in Gates

*Between a tattoo parlor and a liquor store may not seem like a preferred location for a Christian church, but it’s ideal to the Rev. Shane Smith.

Smith held the first service for his new church, called Church Radiant, in a rented 3,000-square-foot space at 744 Elmgrove Road, Gates, between Elmgrove Discount Wine and Spirits and Altered Image Tattoo.

“I hope it sends a message to the community. I think people are tired of fake handshakes and the superficial. They’re tired of a church that’s condemning and hypocritical. We want to be where people are,” said Smith, 39, of Rush.

For now, Church Radiant offers one 11 a.m. service, but Smith left space on the front door to add the times for an earlier and a later service.

If Sunday’s turnout is an indication, those additional services will be added very soon.

All 120 seats were filled and more people were standing in the back.

“After months of planning, thousands of hours of work and tons of mountains being moved, we are finally at our new home,” Dan Smith, who is related to Pastor Smith by marriage, told the congregation.

He introduced a Christian rock band with electric instruments that performed a 30-minute set that had the congregation on its feet and singing along.

The Rev. Smith, who graduated from Spencerport High School in 1990, earned a bachelor’s degree at Roberts Wesleyan College, a master’s in youth ministry at Huntington College in Huntington, Ind., and a second master’s at Northeastern Seminary at Roberts Wesleyan.

After being ordained in 1995 in the Church of the Nazarene, Smith led youth ministries at churches in Warren, Pa., Portage, Ind., and at Calvary Community Church in Henrietta.

Last February he spent 10 days in Uganda helping to set up a system that will provide clean water to people there.

During that trip, Smith said, he “actually looked poverty right in the face.”

After that, he felt a calling to start his own church.

While the new church space was being prepared during the past two months, Smith held services at the RIT Inn and Conference Center and at the Rochester Airport Marriott.

About 35 members of the new church came with Smith from Calvary Community Church in Henrietta.

“We believe in what the church has to offer. They do a lot of service work within the community helping people,” said Patricia Gruschow, 26, of Livonia, Livingston County, who used to go to Calvary.*

The Wed address for the article is: democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=20102080306

 

[Syele]

I have noticed a growing movement in protestant churches to remove all denominational ties(or just remove it from the church name out on the sign), Set the members to all in service capacities, and set the main Sunday service to be designed for “seekers”(therefore perfect for their new location), The real deep study and more serious worship is moved to small home groups scattered all over the town. These smaller groups also go around town doing community service, helping the poor etc. so they meet a couple times a week.

This group seems to be following that model. I’m curious if anyone knows where that trend is originating from. Before I moved to this town, the Episcopal church I attended started the process to swap to that.

The Churches I have seen doing it seem to grow really fast, lots of new attendees. I don’t know how many of the “seekers” convert to Christianity then dig deeper by going to the home churches (each church seems to name these different things) and helping the poor. It would be interesting too to know what percentage of people stay in those churches or if its a revolving door of new people all the time.

I suppose it brings in the non-Christians and those coming back to faith after falling away to help them and invite them and have the Church next door to the liquor store. Then once the new person comes several times and decided to live for God, they get invited to the home of someone they have already gotten to know.

Anyhow, all this is speculation on my part, gained from hearing about my cousins church (grew to a megachurch very fast and they have a skating rink IN the church complex for some reason I fail to grasp), my own church doing it, then moving to a new town and church visiting all over. I’m seeing alot of it. As a lifelong Christian (Protestant) It frustrates me. Dropping the denomination makes it so I don’t have a reference point to what they believe. The services being run like a tent revival also makes it focus on teaching basics in the sermons “Jesus died on a cross” “You should repent of your sin!” etc. means I still cant get an idea what sort of group I’m encountering either. I don’t want to go to a home church of 8 people as a first time visitor only to discover they are snake wrangling or something.

 

[jbelokur]

I guess to clarify, do you think that it is acceptable to shape that time Christians set aside for the worship of almighty God to make it more appealing to non-Christians(or who I like to call pre-Christians). I have found that they often times become the focus of worship rather than God Himself. Also, to what extent should worship we something wholly other rather than a reflection of the common or the day to day? I think of the Exodus narratives or the burning bush, where God commands Moses to take off His sandals because he is on holy ground, or of the instructions for building the Tabernacle and the worship furniture and priestly garb to be used in worshiping God. These things were set apart and as I said wholly other than what was the day to day for the Israelite, and they were set apart for God alone. Thanks for you reply!

 

[Silence_Dogood_1]

I was just wondering what the prevailing thought among protestants is concerning the design of your worship services for the purpose of evangelism ie. “reaching the lost” . Evangelism mind you is quite obviously a worthy pursuit and is mission of Christ’s Church, but, to what extant is it to play a part in the worshiping of almighty God?

Here is an article from the Democrat and Chronicle concerning a new “church plant”. Notice in particular the major features of their worship services as observed by the author of this article.

Service-oriented church opens between tattoo parlor, liquor store in Gates

*Between a tattoo parlor and a liquor store may not seem like a preferred location for a Christian church, but it’s ideal to the Rev. Shane Smith.

Smith held the first service for his new church, called Church Radiant, in a rented 3,000-square-foot space at 744 Elmgrove Road, Gates, between Elmgrove Discount Wine and Spirits and Altered Image Tattoo.

“I hope it sends a message to the community. I think people are tired of fake handshakes and the superficial. They’re tired of a church that’s condemning and hypocritical. We want to be where people are,” said Smith, 39, of Rush.

For now, Church Radiant offers one 11 a.m. service, but Smith left space on the front door to add the times for an earlier and a later service.

If Sunday’s turnout is an indication, those additional services will be added very soon.

All 120 seats were filled and more people were standing in the back.

“After months of planning, thousands of hours of work and tons of mountains being moved, we are finally at our new home,” Dan Smith, who is related to Pastor Smith by marriage, told the congregation.

He introduced a Christian rock band with electric instruments that performed a 30-minute set that had the congregation on its feet and singing along.

The Rev. Smith, who graduated from Spencerport High School in 1990, earned a bachelor’s degree at Roberts Wesleyan College, a master’s in youth ministry at Huntington College in Huntington, Ind., and a second master’s at Northeastern Seminary at Roberts Wesleyan.

After being ordained in 1995 in the Church of the Nazarene, Smith led youth ministries at churches in Warren, Pa., Portage, Ind., and at Calvary Community Church in Henrietta.

Last February he spent 10 days in Uganda helping to set up a system that will provide clean water to people there.

During that trip, Smith said, he “actually looked poverty right in the face.”

After that, he felt a calling to start his own church.

While the new church space was being prepared during the past two months, Smith held services at the RIT Inn and Conference Center and at the Rochester Airport Marriott.

About 35 members of the new church came with Smith from Calvary Community Church in Henrietta.

“We believe in what the church has to offer. They do a lot of service work within the community helping people,” said Patricia Gruschow, 26, of Livonia, Livingston County, who used to go to Calvary.*

The Wed address for the article is: democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=20102080306

IntheBible,churchservicesareonlyfortheBodyofChrist.That’snottosaythatnon-Christianscannotvisit,butthepurposeoftheserviceisnotforthem.

In every example of the church doing evangelism in the Bible, the church always goes out into the world. It never invites the world into the church.

We love to have visitors in our church and nothing would make us happier than if a non-Christian was convicted by the Holy Spirit in our of our services, as has happened before, and gets saved, but that’s a by-product of the role of the church service, not the role of the church service, itself.

 

[MarkBrown]

Syele,

This “new” way of doing church stems from Rick Warren and the Emergent Church groups. While in Baptist Seminary I had to study Warren and his movement. (By the way the Baptist seminary I attended loved this movement.) Warren started his church in California by conducting a survey to find out what people wanted. He stripped away all mention of denomination (SBC), took out the pulpit, “religious jargon”, symbols (no crosses) and anything people associated with religion. Emergent church, the same.
(*there are always exceptions).

The Anglican Church I was confirmed in follows this model. I am no longer in that particular parish. They stripped the church of anything remotely Anglican/Christian. Brought in a praise band and tossed the liturgy.

I have found in these churches an emphasis on feeling good. How you feel in the service is the most important. These churches have a habit of changing the service or “liturgy” every few months to keep things fresh. My old parish has changed it’s name three times in four years.

Is the Mass for evangelism? Yes as a by product. The focus of the Mass is Worship of God. Can the Mass, the Eucharist, draw people to Christ? Yes it can. Evangelism is when the laity lives the Gospel in the world. Evangelism is when the Church tells the world “come and see”. Not when the Church tells the world, see we are just like you. The world is looking for more. Hence the fluid membership in Churches who try to be like the world.

Just my observations.

Fr.Mark

They have to keep it fresh for the foundation is shallow. The small groups are not lead by truly trained people in biblical studies. Usually the one who volunteers, most active and most “on fire”. Numbers grow, but the people do not stay the same. Even in mega churches. My former Anglican priest has asked me to come back to be his “Director of Religious Education”, he has four deacons but not one is capable of leading the religious education of the parish. He words not mine.

They have turned the time of Worship of the Creator God, into a man centered pleasure service. Not my opinion, what I have witnessed. Many of these churches are built, not around Christ, but the personality of the minister. In this article, and to be fair the church does not the ability to choose what is in the article, no mention of Christ. Just social services and the “we want to be where the people are” quipp. After being judgmental on other churches being judgmental.

 

[Silence_Dogood_1]

I have noticed a growing movement in protestant churches to remove all denominational ties(or just remove it from the church name out on the sign), Set the members to all in service capacities, and set the main Sunday service to be designed for “seekers”(therefore perfect for their new location), The real deep study and more serious worship is moved to small home groups scattered all over the town. These smaller groups also go around town doing community service, helping the poor etc. so they meet a couple times a week.

This group seems to be following that model. I’m curious if anyone knows where that trend is originating from. Before I moved to this town, the Episcopal church I attended started the process to swap to that.

The Churches I have seen doing it seem to grow really fast, lots of new attendees. I don’t know how many of the “seekers” convert to Christianity then dig deeper by going to the home churches (each church seems to name these different things) and helping the poor. It would be interesting too to know what percentage of people stay in those churches or if its a revolving door of new people all the time.

I suppose it brings in the non-Christians and those coming back to faith after falling away to help them and invite them and have the Church next door to the liquor store. Then once the new person comes several times and decided to live for God, they get invited to the home of someone they have already gotten to know.

Anyhow, all this is speculation on my part, gained from hearing about my cousins church (grew to a megachurch very fast and they have a skating rink IN the church complex for some reason I fail to grasp), my own church doing it, then moving to a new town and church visiting all over. I’m seeing alot of it. As a lifelong Christian (Protestant) It frustrates me. Dropping the denomination makes it so I don’t have a reference point to what they believe. The services being run like a tent revival also makes it focus on teaching basics in the sermons “Jesus died on a cross” “You should repent of your sin!” etc. means I still cant get an idea what sort of group I’m encountering either. I don’t want to go to a home church of 8 people as a first time visitor only to discover they are snake wrangling or something.

That’s actually a very big controversy in Evangelicalism right now, but the good news is that it isn’t nearly as widespread as you think. It’s just a matter of the squeaky wheel getting the grease.

 

[jbelokur]

Syele,

This “new” way of doing church stems from Rick Warren and the Emergent Church groups. While in Baptist Seminary I had to study Warren and his movement. (By the way the Baptist seminary I attended loved this movement.) Warren started his church in California by conducting a survey to find out what people wanted. He stripped away all mention of denomination (SBC), took out the pulpit, “religious jargon”, symbols (no crosses) and anything people associated with religion. Emergent church, the same.
(*there are always exceptions).

I too have studied the Rick Warren movement as well as others in the Emergent Church movement. I found your statement that, “Warren started his church in California by conducting a survey to find out what people wanted.” Is true but sad. People who do not know God at some level don’t know what they crave or rather who they crave. their desires are warped by selfishness and spiritual laziness. Some of the things that the people need the most are the things you list as having been stripped away. In reality you end up with a worship service that is the most basic form of idolatry, or the worship of self.

 

[jbelokur]

In the Bible,church services are only for the Body of Christ. That’s not to say that non-Christians cannot visit, but the purpose of the service is not fort hem.
.

Not only in the Bible but in the Apostolic Church as well, and I would contend currently in the Catholic Church. In the first few centuries those who were not fully apart of the Body of Christ had to leave after the liturgy of the Word. And even these were people in the process of being grafted into Christ’s Body.

 

[BernadetteM]

My close friends left the Episcopal church, which they had been members for just a few years to join her cousins new church. He was brought up Church of Christ. He used many gimmicks to bring in new members. He had some muscle building group of men in the beginning to entice the youth, then a large band.

His church is now a mega church, it is a hugh building/buildings. His only function now is to do one sermon on Sunday. He has ministers, I have no idea if any of them have seminary backgrounds.

I went once and they had an actress who followed a guest preacher around on the stage and then invited people to her home for a bible study. It was very phoney and was more like a theater type of setting.

I know for a fact that her cousin owns two very expensive homes and expensive cars.

His brother wanted to start his own church and her cousin was furious and told his brother that he better make sure that his new church was far away and that he better not take any of the congregation with him. They haven’t really spoken in many years because of this.

I didn’t feel like I was in a worship service at all. It was all entertainment. The church has many small groups and most of the people don’t really know one another unless they meet them in these small groups.

The church is like an auditorium, there is nothing that would make you think you are in church. A large stage, screens all around the seats like in a theater.

The time I was there the speaker wasn’t really talking about Jesus or quoting scripture.

I have never been to any other mega church so don’t know if they are all the same.

When I was young I went with a friend to her church sometimes and it was a fundamentalist church and still uses the denominational name. Although it was not liturgical, it did preach the word of God.

I do wonder why mega churches find fault with the Catholic Church because our churches have beautiful pictures, statues and reminders of Christ and the saints, when they have nothing, but coffee shops, big bands and gimmicks. I am sure that it cost millions more than any Catholic Church I have attended to build this mega church.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[jbelokur]

My close friends left the Episcopal church, which they had been members for just a few years to join her cousins new church. He was brought up Church of Christ. He used many gimmicks to bring in new members. He had some muscle building group of men in the beginning to entice the youth, then a large band.

His church is now a mega church, it is a hugh building/buildings. His only function now is to do one sermon on Sunday. He has ministers, I have no idea if any of them have seminary backgrounds.

I went once and they had an actress who followed a guest preacher around on the stage and then invited people to her home for a bible study. It was very phoney and was more like a theater type of setting.

I know for a fact that her cousin owns two very expensive homes and expensive cars.

His brother wanted to start his own church and her cousin was furious and told his brother that he better make sure that his new church was far away and that he better not take any of the congregation with him. They haven’t really spoken in many years because of this.

I didn’t feel like I was in a worship service at all. It was all entertainment. The church has many small groups and most of the people don’t really know one another unless they meet them in these small groups.

The church is like an auditorium, there is nothing that would make you think you are in church. A large stage, screens all around the seats like in a theater.

The time I was there the speaker wasn’t really talking about Jesus or quoting scripture.

I have never been to any other mega church so don’t know if they are all the same.

When I was young I went with a friend to her church sometimes and it was a fundamentalist church and still uses the denominational name. Although it was not liturgical, it did preach the word of God.

I do wonder why mega churches find fault with the Catholic Church because our churches have beautiful pictures, statues and reminders of Christ and the saints, when they have nothing, but coffee shops, big bands and gimmicks. I am sure that it cost millions more than any Catholic Church I have attended to build this mega church.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Bernadette,
Thank you for your response! Though I think that having grown up in a Catholic Paradigm (an assumption) may inhibit your ability to some degree from understanding that the pastor of this new church plant is not doing what he is doing for his own glory or so that he might one day have a mega church, he is in love with God and wants above all else to introduce people to Christ. Having been a protestant the way one thinks about worship (gross generalization) is fundamentally different than that of the Catholic Church. Using worship to draw non-Christians into a understanding of and relationship with Christ is normal and makes perfect sense to them (again gross generalization).
Another question is, for those that are familiar with the emergent church movement, how is this movement not a exercise in subjectivity? Certain things from the Tradition of the Church are raised up while other elements of Tradition are tossed without any consistent means of determining why either of these are done.

 

[BernadetteM]

Bernadette,
Thank you for your response! Though I think that having grown up in a Catholic Paradigm (an assumption) may inhibit your ability to some degree from understanding that the pastor of this new church plant is not doing what he is doing for his own glory or so that he might one day have a mega church, he is in love with God and wants above all else to introduce people to Christ. Having been a protestant the way one thinks about worship (gross generalization) is fundamentally different than that of the Catholic Church. Using worship to draw non-Christians into a understanding of and relationship with Christ is normal and makes perfect sense to them (again gross generalization).
Another question is, for those that are familiar with the emergent church movement, how is this movement not a exercise in subjectivity? Certain things from the Tradition of the Church are raised up while other elements of Tradition are tossed without any consistent means of determining why either of these are done.

In response to yours, I did not grow up Catholic, I am a convert. The problems I have with this particular pastor and church is that I know his cousin, my friend very well and she does enlighten me about what is going on in that church. The pastor has treated his own mother in an un Christ like way, just as his brother. He doesn’t want anyone (brother included) to take anything away from what he has built up. His poor mother has to deal with two sons who are not speaking. My friend also would have liked to belong to the brothers start up church, but because her grandaughter attends the churches school was afraid to join. From what she has told me there is no christian charity in the pastor who has the mega church. My friend is a wonderful Christian and would never just gossip to be mean, she is very concerned with the situation and because I don’t belong to the church feels free to discuss it with me.

As I said I have no experience with other mega churches and the hearts of those who start them. I am not judging any other church, just that this has left a bad taste in what I have seen there and what I know. I am sure that many people start churches with good intentions, but just as some of our Bishops also start with good intentions and are following the Lord, POWER over others seem to come into play and they become like politicians who start out with high hopes to better the country, but somewhere down the line they are lured by money or power and forget their original reasons for being in Congress.

I see faults within our Church, but they are personal faults, not the doctrines of the Church. Thank God He has promised that the gates of hell will not prevail.

I also have met many people from other denominations who are very lovely and have offered prayers for me. Some know I am Catholic and others don’t. There is a unity among many Christians whether Catholic or non Catholic even if it is the unity of brotherly love for others.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[Syele]

I guess to clarify, do you think that it is acceptable to shape that time Christians set aside for the worship of almighty God to make it more appealing to non-Christians(or who I like to call pre-Christians)

I find it disturbing and frustrating.

Syele,

This “new” way of doing church stems from Rick Warren and the Emergent Church groups. While in Baptist Seminary I had to study Warren and his movement. (

Thanks Fr.Mark for the background, it all makes much more sense to me now. Somehow, Im not at all surprised it came out of Rick Warrens stuff.

That’s actually a very big controversy in Evangelicalism right now, but the good news is that it isn’t nearly as widespread as you think. It’s just a matter of the squeaky wheel getting the grease.

Well it seems more widespread than I’d like in my own area as I am trying to find a church home.