Worship of Mary

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I hope that the OP stops back soon and lets us know if we’ve been of help…👍

Peace
James
 
The proof is in the Mass. If veneration of our Holy Mother seems too much for some, then the worship of our Lord in the Mass is way too much for them…
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Samson01 - AMEN! very will put. Thank you! 👍
 
Jesus_Freak_357 said:
Just trying to get straight anwsers from Catholics instead of some website that just bashes you guys.Do you or do you not worship Mary. If yes, what about Jesus’ command in Matt. 4:10 to “Woship the Lord your God, and serve him alone”. If no, what about when the Vatican council II said “when she[Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son…” Please comment:D
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I commend your honest question. Many non-Catholics just assume they know the catholic faith better then Catholics themselves.

🙂

You can read about it at your leisure here:
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

But the answer to your question is No, in the sense that worship is used today.
 
Samson01 said:
The proof is in the Mass. If veneration of our Holy Mother seems too much for some, then the worship of our Lord in the Mass is way too much for them…
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BTW, this veneration is expressed by the priest (“in persona Christi”) by bowing toward the missal at the mention of her name (“in primis gloriosæ semper Virginis Mariæ, Genetricis Dei et Domini nostri Jesu Christi:”) in the Canon.
 
Jesus_Freak_357 said:
Just trying to get straight anwsers from Catholics instead of some website that just bashes you guys.Do you or do you not worship Mary. If yes, what about Jesus’ command in Matt. 4:10 to “Woship the Lord your God, and serve him alone”. If no, what about when the Vatican council II said “when she[Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son…” Please comment:D
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It’s the same discussion as with all the saints. I do believe you can pray to or preach about Mary as mother of God.
 
PJM said:
NO Catholic DO NOT Worship Mary!

We honor her as the most unique and BLESSED human being in the history of the world. MADE perfect by God inorder to merit being the VERY MOTHER OF GOD.

Look here at the MOST frequently prayed Marian Prayer then READ the Bible passage I have included.

Hail Mary FULL of Grace, The Lord is with thee.
Blesed are you among women and BLESSED in the fruit of your womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God
PRAY FRO US SINNERS NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH… AMEN!

NOTICE that in its entiretly EXCEPT for the final petition; it is completely Biblically grounded. 😉
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First of all I would like to thank you all for your anwsers. Now about the Hail Mary. I see a couple of problems with it that are not supported by scripture, or at least I haven’t seen any scripture supporting it. The phrase “Full of Grace” in Greek(which is what the NT was wrote in) is “plaras karitos”. This phrase only occurs in the NT twice, in John 1:14 and in Acts 6:8, neither in reference to Mary.

Another part of this prayer I see that is contrary to scripture is the phrase “Holy Mary”. If the phrase is meant as “sinless”, I disagree and find no ground for this in scripture. But if it is meant as Blessed, I understand that she was Blessed to give birth to Jesus our Savior and Lord. She said so herself in Luke 1:48.

One last thing is the concept of Praying to Mary and/or the Saints. Again, I’ve seen no evidence in Scripture condoning prayer to anyone other than God Almighty. Again I appeciate the comments and would love to hear more.:cool:
 
Jesus_Freak_357 said:
The phrase “Full of Grace” in Greek(which is what the NT was wrote in) is “plaras karitos”. This phrase only occurs in the NT twice, in John 1:14 and in Acts 6:8, neither in reference to Mary.
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**
From another thread:**

The Koine Greek used at the time is different from modern Greek. It is a much more precise language than English. The words used of Jesus in John 1 are Pleres Charis. Pleres means “full” or “lacking nothing” (and is applied also to “truth”). Charis simply means “Grace”.

The word used of Mary in Luke 1 is Kecharitomene. It is a complex participle. The root of this word is Charis, meaning Grace. The prefix ‘Ke’ means that the grace was already perfectly present before the angel appeared. The suffix ‘mene’ means that Mary was the recipient of this grace. In other words Kecharitomene shows that Mary was a recipient of a fullness of Grace. The grace was given to her. The perfect tense indicates that this filling with grace is a continuous event that was ongoing before the angel appeared.

The translations which state “highly favoured” instead of “full of grace”, are largely motivated by a doctrinal desire to downgrade Mary. The first version to use this translation was the King James Version, where the translators noted that “highly favoured” was used instead of “full of Grace” in order to show that Mary was not a source of grace. (Tyndale’s version on which the KJV was largely based, used full of Grace).

Most protestant bibles followed the KJV, (along with some modern Catholic ones)

Now, in modern Greek, which Protestants used to interpret these verses, Charis can be translated simply as “favour”. So “Highly-favoured” could be a conceivable translation - but this would only be acceptable if the word “favour” were used as a translation for “Charis” everywhere else in the New Testament. But THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN. Even those bibles which translate “Charis” as Favour" when referring to Mary, translate it as “Grace” everywhere else. This is highly misleading because in the New Testament the word “Grace” has a particular meaning distinct from “Favour”.

In the New Testament “Grace” is a gift of God that saves from sin and its effects. So translating the word any differently is wrong. The correct translation is rightfully “Full of Grace”.
 
Another part of this prayer I see that is contrary to scripture is the phrase “Holy Mary”. If the phrase is meant as “sinless”, I disagree and find no ground for this in scripture. But if it is meant as Blessed, I understand that she was Blessed to give birth to Jesus our Savior and Lord. She said so herself in Luke 1:48.
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Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Since we believe Mary to be in Heaven, we call her Holy Mother.

Genesis 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work…

In Exodus 20:7-9 what God blessed is now holy.
And that is just one example of how God blesses things and they are made holy.

In your reply, you assert that this reasoning is contrary to scripture. Can you please provide the proof from scripture that Mary is not holy? Also, since Mary is heaven she is not sinning while she is there, so it is right to call her Holy according to Revelation 20:6.
 
One last thing is the concept of Praying to Mary and/or the Saints. Again, I’ve seen no evidence in Scripture condoning prayer to anyone other than God Almighty. Again I appeciate the comments and would love to hear more.:cool:
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If you want to make prayer synonymous with worship, then no it is not in the Bible, because we are never taught to worship anyone other than God.

If you say prayer to the saints is intercessory prayer (which is what it really is), then, yes, that is in the bible.

Your statement actually falls under the fallacy of Burden Of Proof:

the claim that whatever has not yet been proved true must be false (or vice versa). Essentially the arguer claims that he should win by default if his opponent can’t make a strong enough case.

There may be three problems here. First, the arguer claims priority, but can he back up that claim ? Second, he is impatient with ambiguity, and wants a final answer right away. And third, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”

To understand prayer of the saints, you have to take the same approach as with any doctrine that is not explicitly defined in scripture (a good example is the doctrine of the Trinity-- scripture supports it, unless you want to misinterpret it purposely to support your rejection of it, or just ignore all the evidence).

Here is an explanation of prayer to the saints using scripture to support it. I don’t claim that is is a complete explanation, and it might not be fully understood or accepted, but this is the best I can do. Take it or leave it.

We are instructed to make intercessory prayer for each other.
*1 Timothy 2:1 - “I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone.”
*If you believe that the Bible is the Word of God, then this is God’s command.

The Church is the body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:27 - “Now you are the body of Christ, and severally members thereof.”
When someone dies in Christ they are not cast off from the Body of the Christ

and the members of the Body all need each other:
*1 Corinthians 12:14-15
For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason [k]any the less a part of the body.
*

one cannot say to the other, “I don’t need you.”…in other words: you can’t say to the saints: “I don’t need your prayers.”
1 Corinthians 12:14-15
And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”

We have a tendency to think that because they are not hear, they cannot hear us or help us. On the contrary, those who seems the weakest in the body are necessary, and on them we bestow much honor.

*Corinthians 12:22-23
On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor
*

And those who die in Christ are not dead, they are alive
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

and precious is the death of his saints, who he rises up to walk in the land of the living (not the land of the dead).
See Psalm 116

God is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.
*Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
*
Note: He says “I AM the God of Abraham”, not “I WAS the God of Abraham” - they are living, not dead.

The saints are in the hand of God, and death cannot touch them. To the unwise they seem to be dead, but they are not.
*Wisdom 3
But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery: And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace. And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality. Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God has tried them, and found them worthy of himself.
*

The prayer of the righteous person avails much, and who is more righteous then those living in heaven?
*James 5:16
Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
*

In heaven the prayers of the saints are offered to God. These are intercessory prayers, because the saints in heaven are already saved, they have no need to pray for themselves.
*Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
*
And the angels add to these prayers:
Revelation 8:3
And another angel came and stood over the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should add it unto the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Now, I just don’t see how prayer to the saints is contrary to scripture. Perhaps you can explain in more detail why you feel that it is.
 
JonathonofOhio said:
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Since we believe Mary to be in Heaven, we call her Holy Mother.

Genesis 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work…

In Exodus 20:7-9 what God blessed is now holy.
And that is just one example of how God blesses things and they are made holy.

In your reply, you assert that this reasoning is contrary to scripture. Can you please provide the proof from scripture that Mary is not holy?
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JonathonofOhio said:
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Since we believe Mary to be in Heaven, we call her holy since those who reign with God are blessed and holy.

Genesis 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work…

In Exodus 20:7-9 what God blessed is now holy.
And that is just one example of how God blesses things and they are made holy.

In your reply, you assert that this reasoning is contrary to scripture. Can you please provide the proof from scripture that Mary is not holy? Also, since Mary is heaven she is not sinning while she is there, so it is right to call her Holy according to Revelation 20:6.
Click to expand...
 
The importance of Mary:

God is PERFECT.

Adam and Eve were made perfect, but they lost that perfection by eating the forbidden fruit. God gave them all they needed but they wanted more, the one thing God said they could not have. Because of their original sin we are all born with original sin. This is why Baptism is so very important. It washes away original sin, but still being imperfect we sin of our on free will. We cannot enter Heaven until our sins are forgiven and we have made retribution for our sins. Without Christ, there is no forgiveness. Without Christ’s Passion, Death, and Resurrection, we cannot peform enough retribution. We need Christ more than we know.

The Son of God, Christ, wanted to become Man to teach and redeem us. Christ, being God, is PERFECT. Christ could not come Man from one with sin. God choose Mary to be sinless and she was immaculately conceived herself and lived a sinless life. Mary, therefore could become the Mother of Christ, the Mother of God the Son.

Mary had the ability to sin but also the grace of God to not sin. Mary also had the ability to refuse God’s request for her to become the Mother of God the Son. In Faith, she agreed. Had she been afraid to trust God, how would Jesus have become Man and redeem us? By the Power of the God, the Holy Spirit AND by the faculties of a sinless human woman - Mary - Christ become Man.

So WITHOUT Mary, Jesus would not have come into this world and we all would be the much worse for that.

BECAUSE Mary said YES, we have the hope of Heaven. We owe her big time. We can never say “thank you” enough to her.

After God the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit, Mary is THE MOST IMPORTANT of all of God’s creations. She is thus worthy of our utmost respect. As others above have said, Catholics do, and all mankind should, venerate Mary and would if they but understand Mary’s position in our Salvation.

We all have needs. We seek satisfaction of our needs from the one who can satisfy our needs. Yet often we are afraid to ask directly for many reasons. We often ask a friend of the one who can grant our request to intercede for us. Saints, being in Heaven, are friends of Jesus. We pray to Saints to intercede for us.

Mary is also in Heaven. But she is so much more than a Saint. She is the Mother of Christ. As the Loving Mother of Jesus Christ, it is impossible for us to think that Christ would refuse any request Mary would make of Him. We pray to Mary, the HOLY MOTHER OF GOD to intercede us. Who among us would ignore the intercession of our own loving mother asking us to do some good for someone who asked her to intercede?

We venerate Mary because she is the Mother of Christ who won for us eternal salvation if we but do our best to follow her Son Jesus Christ.

We further venerate Mary, because, as the Holy Mother of God, she is in the best position to intercede with Christ to grant us our petitions.

Once we understand the importance of Mary in Salvation, we should have no problem in using the right words in expressing our relationship with Mary the Holy Mother of God.
 
Jesus_Freak_357 said:
Just trying to get straight anwsers from Catholics instead of some website that just bashes you guys.Do you or do you not worship Mary. If yes, what about Jesus’ command in Matt. 4:10 to “Woship the Lord your God, and serve him alone”. If no, what about when the Vatican council II said “when she[Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son…” Please comment:D
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I have not seen a post that differentiates prayer to a catholic and a protestant.

Catholics worship is during the mass, mainly, and we worship as a community. Prayers are our personal time with Jesus…to thank him for His blessings, petition our wants in accordance with His will, etc.

Prayers to a protestant is worship. Ever since the Reformation, when the reformers threw out the Eucharistic celebration and worship, the only thing left is prayers as their form of worship.

When Catholics pray to Mary, it is not to worship her, it is to ask her intercession, her help. Same with other saints, when we ask for their intercession.
 
Jesus_Freak_357 said:
First of all I would like to thank you all for your anwsers. Now about the Hail Mary. I see a couple of problems with it that are not supported by scripture, or at least I haven’t seen any scripture supporting it. The phrase “Full of Grace” in Greek(which is what the NT was wrote in) is “plaras karitos”. This phrase only occurs in the NT twice, in John 1:14 and in Acts 6:8, neither in reference to Mary.

Another part of this prayer I see that is contrary to scripture is the phrase “Holy Mary”. If the phrase is meant as “sinless”, I disagree and find no ground for this in scripture. But if it is meant as Blessed, I understand that she was Blessed to give birth to Jesus our Savior and Lord. She said so herself in Luke 1:48.

One last thing is the concept of Praying to Mary and/or the Saints. Again, I’ve seen no evidence in Scripture condoning prayer to anyone other than God Almighty. Again I appeciate the comments and would love to hear more.:cool:
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Hello Jesus Freak welcome to CAF,

Pretty advanced argument with the “full of grace” comment, usually given by deep beliving Protestants refuting Catholicism, problem is the argument is outdated as Jonathon pointed out you can also read your answer fully here: bringyou.to/apologetics/a116.htm . Was the intent of the thread to inquire Catholics if we worship Mary or debate us? Guess we’ll see but the original question was answered.

“Holy Mary” is in full unity with Sacred Scripture when you understand the above that she is FULL of grace.

Show us where, anywhere, that we pray TO Mary or Saints? I think the word you are looking for is WITH.

If this is going to be a back n forth, might want to put this into Apologetics.
 
Jesus Freak,

Just want to let you know, some of those anti-catholic sites reference ‘catholic documents’ about ‘various councils’ that never existed. Sometimes they try to claim that Catholics worship the Pope or think he is God because ‘it says so in so and so council’. Be wary.

God Bless you,

PiousTemplar.
 
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