Worship of Mary?

[QuickCat]

Shalom


God bless

Thanks. None of these titles are found in Scripture. I read the prayer. How sad that this poor fellow is asking for “mercy.” God the Father showed supreme mercy upon His creation when God the Son paid the full price for our sins on the cross. To ask for mercy is the same as asking God to have the Son pay the penalty for our sins all over again. No greater mercy was every shown. Rather than pray for mercy we should thank God for the mercy He has already shown by the cross.
Grace and Peace,
QC

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Thanks. None of these titles are found in Scripture. I read the prayer. How sad that this poor fellow is asking for “mercy.” God the Father showed supreme mercy upon His creation when God the Son paid the full price for our sins on the cross. To ask for mercy is the same as asking God to have the Son pay the penalty for our sins all over again. No greater mercy was every shown. Rather than pray for mercy we should thank God for the mercy He has already shown by the cross.
Grace and Peace,
QC

chuckle Tell that to the hesychasts, whose spirituality is centralized on the Jesus Prayer: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, the sinner.” Or to Jesus Christ Himself, who gave us the Our Father

 

[stewstew03]

Thanks. None of these titles are found in Scripture. I read the prayer. How sad that this poor fellow is asking for “mercy.” God the Father showed supreme mercy upon His creation when God the Son paid the full price for our sins on the cross. To ask for mercy is the same as asking God to have the Son pay the penalty for our sins all over again. No greater mercy was every shown. Rather than pray for mercy we should thank God for the mercy He has already shown by the cross.
Grace and Peace,
QC

You think it is sad that someone is asking for God’s mercy?

Our “sin debt” was paid in full on the Cross - does that mean you no longer ask for forgiveness?

 

[peace2u2]

Thanks. None of these titles are found in Scripture. I read the prayer. How sad that this poor fellow is asking for “mercy.” God the Father showed supreme mercy upon His creation when God the Son paid the full price for our sins on the cross. To ask for mercy is the same as asking God to have the Son pay the penalty for our sins all over again. No greater mercy was every shown. Rather than pray for mercy we should thank God for the mercy He has already shown by the cross.
Grace and Peace,
QC

First, the titles that honor the Mother of God need not be found in Scripture in order to prove that she is all of those titles. Remember, or perhaps you don’t know that the New Testament was not written all at once and the 12 Apostles did not carry around the book that you or I do to evangelize. They did as Jesus commanded them to:

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matt. 28:19-20)

The first evangelizers taught by word of mouth you know, we call it “Oral Tradition”.

Even St. Paul taught by Oral Tradition. Look at these verses:

“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2).

“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us” (2 Thess. 3:6).

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15). Notice in this particular verse, St. Paul says **by word of mouth first **implying Sacred Tradition preceded Sacred Scripture.

God reveals all things to us gradually. That is how we learn as humans, gradually. I wasn’t born and therefore knew everything there was to know about life, I was taught, first by my earth mother and father; the same with my spirituality and my relationship with God. I came to know Him by what I was taught by what my parents told me and as the years went on developed my relationship with Him being taught by my teachers, pastors, friends, etc. about who God is and who the Mother of God is and having the Bible explained to me; by Oral Tradition.

What exactly do you have trouble with in understanding this and I will try to clarify it better if you are still struggling with this?

Second, you have no need to ask for God’s mercy everyday? Congratulations, You must be a saint already!

But, I am not, for I can barely get through one day without sinning, (no matter how trivial; i.e. judging that persons outfit, I find this person I’m having a conversation with annoying, oh darn why did I have to swear at my son while we were having that heated argument or swear at that person for cutting me off in traffic?) and yes, I ask for His forgiveness that tomorrow I may be a better person to all those people that He places in my path as St. Paul says in Scripture we are called to be saints implying that we are not already Saints but to strive to be.

Romans 1:7, St. Paul says, "To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[zz912]

Thanks. None of these titles are found in Scripture.

Luke 1:39 During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, 40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, 42 cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”

 

[QuickCat]

You think it is sad that someone is asking for God’s mercy?

Our “sin debt” was paid in full on the Cross - does that mean you no longer ask for forgiveness?

Hasn’t He already forgiven you of ALL trespasses? Col. 2:13
Does our apostle [Paul] ever tell us to pray for mercy?
Hasn’t He already shown us the greatest “mercy” when He paid our sin debt?
Wasn’t His work on the cross entirely satisfactory or does He need to be sacrificed over and over again? If so, just when is it enough?
QC

 

[Farsight001]

Hasn’t He already forgiven you of ALL trespasses? Col. 2:13

As the previous verse makes clear, all trespasses are forgiven AT BAPTISM. It says nothing of the trespasses committed after baptism, though.

Does our apostle [Paul] ever tell us to pray for mercy?

Why in the world would Paul have to for it to be a thing we should do? Where is it written “if Paul didn’t tell you to do it, don’t do it”?

Hasn’t He already shown us the greatest “mercy” when He paid our sin debt?

Sure. May I suggest you check out Colossians 1:24?

Wasn’t His work on the cross entirely satisfactory or does He need to be sacrificed over and over again?

Where did this come from? No one is trying to sacrifice him over and over again.

 

[stewstew03]

Hasn’t He already forgiven you of ALL trespasses? Col. 2:13

If I do not forgive others for their trespasses, will He continue to forgive me for all eternity?

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 6:12[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[QuickCat]

As the previous verse makes clear, all trespasses are forgiven AT BAPTISM. It says nothing of the trespasses committed after baptism, though.
Why in the world would Paul have to for it to be a thing we should do? Where is it written “if Paul didn’t tell you to do it, don’t do it”?
Sure. May I suggest you check out Colossians 1:24?
Where did this come from? No one is trying to sacrifice him over and over again.

Are you implying that the Lord’s death on the cross wasn’t sufficent to save us?

Now I rejoice (nun chairomen). This is not a new note for Paul. See him in jail in Philippi (Ac 16:25) and in 2Co 11:16-33; Ro 5:3; Php 2:18. Fill up on my part (antanaplêrô). Very rare double compound verb (here only in N.T.) to fill (plêroô) up (ana), in turn (anti). It is now Paul’s “turn” at the bat, to use a baseball figure. Christ had his “turn,” the grandest of all and suffered for us all in a sense not true of any one else. It is the idea of balance or correspondence in anti as seen in Demosthenes’s use of this verb (De Symm., p. 282), “the poor balancing the rich.” And yet Christ did not cause suffering to cease. There is plenty left for Paul and for each of us in his time. That which is lacking (ta husterêmata). “The left-overs,” so to speak. Late word from hustereô, to come behind, to be left, to fail. See Lu 21:4; 1Th 3:10; 2Co 8:14; 9:12. For his body’s sake (huper tou sômatos autou). As Paul showed in his exultation in suffering in 2Co 11:16-33, though not in the same sense in which Christ suffered and died for us as Redeemer. Paul attaches no atoning value whatever to his own sufferings for the church (see also verse Col 1:18).

QC

 

[QuickCat]

Doesn’t the RCC call the mass a “sacrifice?”

QC

 

[JRKH]

Where did this come from? No one is trying to sacrifice him over and over again.

The mass is not a “new” sacrifice, but a making present (re-presenting) of the one sacrifice done in accord with Christ’s instructions.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Are you implying that the Lord’s death on the cross wasn’t sufficent to save us?
QC

It is dangerous in such matters to “read into” the comments of others. Obviously there are passages in Scripture that give cause for great joy and hope in our forgiveness and salvation. Yet there are others…Cautionary ones that must be factored in. Otherwise one is left with a faith lacking in important elements.

No one is saying that the Lords death was insufficient.

And Yet -
Jesus DID instruct us to ask forgiveness in proportion to how we forgive.
Jesus DID say to the Apostles, "Those who’s sins you forgive, they are forgiven, those who’s sins you retain, they are retained.

St Paul took grave issue with the Corinthians (I think) over one of their number (evidently a baptized member of the community) living openly in sin and Paul exhorted them to put this person out of the community.

Repentance requires reform…Reform takes time…and often involves stumbling…stumbling requires rededication and rededication requires a renewal of forgiveness. Therefore we ask forgiveness for those times when we have failed in our efforts to reform - to form ourselves to Christ.

Peace
James

 

[Farsight001]

Are you implying that the Lord’s death on the cross wasn’t sufficent to save us?

Nowhere can you find such an implication in my post. This is an attempt at a diversion and nothing more. Now if you will please, address what I said. I especially want to know, since you decided to ask such a question, what you think of Colossians 1:24.

Doesn’t the RCC call the mass a “sacrifice?”

Yes they do. However, this is again a diversion. No one is saying that they are sacrificing Christ over and over again. You wondering why it seemingly contradicts? Then perhaps you should start asking the important questions - like WHY do we call it a sacrifice. If you watch behavior and assume intentions, you will invariably come to the wrong conclusion. If you watch behavior and you think “I wonder why they do that” and then you ASK them, then you don’t have a problem.

 

[PRmerger]

The mass is not a “new” sacrifice, but a making present (re-presenting) of the one sacrifice done in accord with Christ’s instructions.

Peace
James

And all Christians ought to be able to understand how we participate in and make present Christ’s sacrifice, without re-sacrificing him, because it’s the same paradigm that they use when they say that His Blood atones for their sins.

That is, unless Quick Cat believes that Christ is still bloody and is being re-sacrificed each and every time a Christian makes an “altar call”,and is forgiven by the atoning blood of Christ–something that happened 2000 years ago, but is being made present when the Believer repents–then Quick Cat ought to understand what we mean by participating in His One Eternal Sacrifice.

 

[TimothyH]

The mass is not a “new” sacrifice, but a making present (re-presenting) of the one sacrifice done in accord with Christ’s instructions.

Peace
James

I don’t want to stick my nose in here and it is a bit off topic, but just want to clarify…

“Re-presenting” the sacrifice of Christ is not about making Christ present but about presenting once again (re-presenting) the sacrifice before God the Father.

Christ was the perfect sacrifice, and that sacrifice is again made present, but we then present it again (re-present) to God. It was the most pleasing sacrifice when it happened “Once for all”, and it is pleasing to God when we offer a re-presentation of that same sacrifice before God the Father again.

It’s about the presentation to the Father, not about the real presence.

I don’t mean to lecture JRHK, but fell that it is important for the sake of clarity for those who may be reading.

Now back to our regularly scheduled argument.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

And all Christians ought to be able to understand how we participate in and make present Christ’s sacrifice, without re-sacrificing him, because it’s the same paradigm that they use when they say that His Blood atones for their sins.

That is, unless Quick Cat believes that Christ is still bloody and is being re-sacrificed each and every time a Christian makes an “altar call”,and is forgiven by the atoning blood of Christ–something that happened 2000 years ago, but is being made present when the Believer repents–then Quick Cat ought to understand what we mean by participating in His One Eternal Sacrifice.

Oooooooh…I like this…Never heard it expressed this way before…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I don’t want to stick my nose in here and it is a bit off topic, but just want to clarify…

“Re-presenting” the sacrifice of Christ is not about making Christ present but about presenting once again (re-presenting) the sacrifice before God the Father.

Christ was the perfect sacrifice, and that sacrifice is again made present, but we then present it again (re-present) to God. It was the most pleasing sacrifice when it happened “Once for all”, and it is pleasing to God when we offer a re-presentation of that same sacrifice before God the Father again.

It’s about the presentation to the Father, not about the real presence.

I don’t mean to lecture JRHK, but fell that it is important for the sake of clarity for those who may be reading.

Now back to our regularly scheduled argument.

-Tim-

hhmmmm Well I don’t know if it makes things more clear for anyone else…but I’m sorry to say that it didn’t for me…

When I said, Make present (re-present) I meant that the mass “makes present” the one sacrifice. Or to put it another way…it puts US at the foot of the cross - at the one sacrifice…

If that is in error, then I will happily accept correction…and if something is not clear, I am sure quick cat will ask.

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

hhmmmm Well I don’t know if it makes things more clear for anyone else…but I’m sorry to say that it didn’t for me…

When I said, Make present (re-present) I meant that the mass “makes present” the one sacrifice. Or to put it another way…it puts US at the foot of the cross - at the one sacrifice…

If that is in error, then I will happily accept correction…and if something is not clear, I am sure quick cat will ask.

Peace
James

Ha, OK, the Mass makes present the sacrifice. Yes.

I thought you were talking about the real presence.

Words stink sometimes. Sorry!

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

Ha, OK, the Mass makes present the sacrifice. Yes.

I thought you were talking about the real presence.

Words stink sometimes. Sorry!

-Tim-

Peace
James

 

[peace2u2]

Thanks. None of these titles are found in Scripture. QC

Thank you zz912 for leading us to Scripture that defends Mary as “Mother of God”.

Luke 1:39 During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, 40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, 42 cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”

QuickCat, to deny Mary her title is to deny Christ his. To deny Mary as the Mother of God is to deny that Mary’s Son, Jesus, is God or to deny that God really became Mary’s Son.

Jesus took on Mary’s human nature and that is why we say that Jesus is truly human, not half and Jesus took on His Father’s Nature and that is why we say that Jesus is truly Divine, not half. God truly born from Mary his human mother and that is how she gets her title as ‘Mother of God’.

Are you implying that the Lord’s death on the cross wasn’t sufficent to save us?

as Redeemer. Paul attaches no atoning value whatever to his own sufferings for the church (see also verse Col 1:18).
QC

You state your religion as No so I assume that you are an atheist? Although you ask wasn’t the Lord’s death on the cross sufficient to save us so I also assume that you are Christian? So regardless of what religion you practice:

Jesus redeemed all of us; even those who do not know His Holy Name. Jesus died on the cross not just for the Christian, but for the Jew, the Muslim, the Buddhist and even the Atheist as St. Paul states:

1 Tim. 2:6: who gave himself as ransom for all.

But that free gift of salvation is contingent upon our individual response to Christ; what do we do with this free gift?

Matt. 24:13: But, the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Why do we have to persevere to the end?

This verse is implying that we are not already saved but what is the state of our soul at the end of our earthly journey?

And that is why St. Paul states in 1 Tim. 4:10: “For this we toil and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all, especially of those who believe.”

So I do believe St. Paul does attach an atoning value to his own sufferings as he says that he has the hope that he will be saved not that he is alreay saved and so should we, not that we already are:

Rom.5:2: “through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God.” Why would he boast in hope if he already knew he had it?

So, like St. Paul, we are called to work out our salvation in fear and trembling:

Phil. 2:12, So, then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

What point are you making with Col.1:18: He is the head of the body, the Church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.

Scripture is stating that Jesus is the head of the body, the Church and that Christ was the first to be raised immortal from the grave.