Worshiping Idols!

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SuS33

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As a Catholic, I know and believe we do not worship idols, yet seeing none Catholics talk about us doing it while not being able to defend my faith is upsetting. But it’s ok they don’t understand. My question is how to defend my church against this claim? When did we started making statues for Saints? Is their biblical support to it? Do you know of a book that explains it well so I can explain it to others too?

Thank you, God bless.
 
I’m a big fan personally of Patrick Madrid’s books on apologetics, but I’m not sure exactly which of his books would be best for you.

Well, the protestants will tell you that the bible forbids the making of graven images, but that isn’t exactly true.

The Mercy Seat on the Ark of the Covenant, for example, had two giant angels on it with outstretched wings.
 
SuS33 said:
As a Catholic, I know and believe we do not worship idols, yet seeing none Catholics talk about us doing it while not being able to defend my faith is upsetting. But it’s ok they don’t understand. My question is how to defend my church against this claim? When did we started making statues for Saints? Is their biblical support to it? Do you know of a book that explains it well so I can explain it to others too?

Thank you, God bless.
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Statues are like photographs or paintings. Statue making is an art form that was very popular in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. Statues are longer lasting than paintings, especially in the ancient world.

The pagans used to physically worship the statues and treat the statues as if they were the gods. They would often leave food or gifts with the statue to please the god. Catholics don’t do that. We might leave a rosary with a statue of Mary, but we don’t do that to please Mary. We do that to help us connect with her, the same way a child might leave flowers at the grave of a parent. We also don’t make statues of God the Father. Our statues are of human beings who actually lived (and occasionally some that represent angels). Our statues of God the Son are ok because Jesus physically was born and lived as a human being. We don’t make them of mystical gods or demons who demand our worship.

By contrast, statues of Vishnu claim to depict how he is supposed to look, with his blue skin and several arms.

See the difference? I hope this help.
 
If you include angels in your definition of saints, then the legitimate use of religious statues started under Moses in the Old Testament. God commanded two angel statues to be fastened to the lid of the Ark of the Covenant. (Exodus 25:18-20) Later, when Solomon built the Temple in Jerusalem, in addition to countless carved images of angels on the walls of the Temple, the Ark of the Covenant was placed in the sanctuary under two large angel statues, each statue at least 15 feet tall. (1 Kings 6:23-28; 2 Chronicles 3:10-13)
 
phil19034 said:
Statues are like photographs or paintings. Statue making is an art form that was very popular in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. Statues are longer lasting than paintings, especially in the ancient world.

The pagans used to physically worship the statues and treat the statues as if they were the gods. They would often leave food or gifts with the statue to please the god. Catholics don’t do that. We might leave a rosary with a statue of Mary, but we don’t do that to please Mary. We do that to help us connect with her, the same way a child might leave flowers at the grave of a parent. We also don’t make statues of God the Father. Our statues are of human beings who actually lived (and occasionally some that represent angels). Our statues of God the Son are ok because Jesus physically was born and lived as a human being. We don’t make them of mystical gods or demons who demand our worship.

By contrast, statues of Vishnu claim to depict how he is supposed to look, with his blue skin and several arms.

See the difference? I hope this help.
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Actually, there are pics of God the Father. And there is at least one statue of Him in Italy. The status has a triangle on it’s head represnting the 3 persons of God.

But yes the rest I understand. Though none Cathoics wont. I need something more biblical. I know about the temple and the arch of the covenent. I don’t think in general bible christian know how important the arch of the covenet was. If they do, then they’d realize that Mary is the arch of the New covenet. And how important she is.

See I can’t speak about status without straying of topic. 😊
 
Ask them…

“Do you pray with a Bible?” “Do you worship the Bible?”
 
NiceMarmot said:
Ask them…

“Do you pray with a Bible?” “Do you worship the Bible?”
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Might not be the best advice. When someone asks you a pointed question, it is best to answer it head on, and not change the topic to one they must defend. These actions will often be construed as you not having a defense.

Its like two kids pleading a case before their parents…“Yeah, you told me not to do X, and I did, but you told Bobby not to do Y and he did, so if its okay for him to be wrong, its okay for me to be wrong!”
 
I understand why these questions get asked. Myself, i have crucifixes everywhere!!

I do see people in my church kneeling to statues but i know it is not the statue they are praying too but it will look odd to someone who is not of the same faith.
 
SuS33 said:
As a Catholic, I know and believe we do not worship idols, yet seeing none Catholics talk about us doing it while not being able to defend my faith is upsetting. But it’s ok they don’t understand. My question is how to defend my church against this claim? When did we started making statues for Saints? Is their biblical support to it? Do you know of a book that explains it well so I can explain it to others too?

Thank you, God bless.
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I’ll leave you with a response, but I’ll also leave you with a question to think about. Statues are three-dimensional forms of art often used to represent many things and people. It’s an art form that goes back thousands of years, long before Judaism existed.

When Christianity arrived among the Gentiles, most of them were Greek and Roman. They were master sculptors. Sculpting was something that they did with great pride and love for the subject. When they sculpted statues of the Lord, Blessed Mother or the saints, they did it with great devotion, not for the statue, but the subject. They were very passionate about it. This passion was very contagious. The art was beautiful and the subject of the art spoke of their faith. The two forces combined were perfect.

In the Eastern word, painting was stronger than sculpting. The reason being a simple one. They did not have the access to marble that the Romans and Greeks had. They painted on wood. The psychology behind it is the same. I was beautiful art and the subject was very significant for them. Hence we get the very beautiful icons found in the Eastern churches and homes.

Whether statues or icons, they are works of art that speak to man about something or someone that is special to him, just like people created the statue of Abraham Lincoln at the Lincoln Memorial. It’s impressive. It’s meant to give the viewer the impression of very powerful man. It’s certainly effective. The same is true of religious art. Its supposed to give the viewer something to think about or impress something in the mind of the viewer.

Now to my question. You asked about the bible.

Why does everything have to be referenced in the bible?

Stop and think about it. When people limit themselves to referencing everything through the bible they are reducing Christian thinking. It’s making a statement that the only people who understood God, salvation history, theology, Judeo-Christian Anthropology, theology and God’s self disclosure are the those who wrote the books of the bible. Everyone else who came after is insignificant and his contribution to the understanding of Salvation History is not important or is of little value, because it’s not in the bible. People who take this position “Show me in the bible” are telling you that the faith of the early Church was of no importance if it was not recorded in the books of the bible. The answer here is simple. There are not enough books in the bible to encompass the power and faith of the early Church. That’s why Sacred Tradition cannot be ignored.
 
I understand and agree with all what you’re saying. I believe in catholic tradition and in the early church fathers and their teachings. So you don’t need to convince me, I’m talking about people who believe that the one true and only authority that God gave us is sacred Scriptures, how can they be convinced with tradition if they only believe in what’s in the Bible and what it says. Now me and you and other Catholics know that scripture doesn’t say that it is the only authority that God left us, in fact 2 Thessalonians (2:15) says: “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.” I know how the early church lived the “Good News” instead of just reading it!
But Bible Christians do not know that! They do not read what the early church fathers wrote. Actually the few of them that do, convert to Catholicism, but the majority don’t! They would want sold biblical support to whatever claims you make. And that’s what I was hoping to find.

But thank you for helping me understand how religious art started. 🙂

God bless.
 
SuS33 said:
I understand and agree with all what you’re saying. I believe in catholic tradition and in the early church fathers and their teachings. So you don’t need to convince me, I’m talking about people who believe that the one true and only authority that God gave us is sacred Scriptures, how can they be convinced with tradition if they only believe in what’s in the Bible and what it says. Now me and you and other Catholics know that scripture doesn’t say that it is the only authority that God left us, in fact 2 Thessalonians (2:15) says: “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.” I know how the early church lived the “Good News” instead of just reading it!
But Bible Christians do not know that! They do not read what the early church fathers wrote. Actually the few of them that do, convert to Catholicism, but the majority don’t! They would want sold biblical support to whatever claims you make. And that’s what I was hoping to find.

But thank you for helping me understand how religious art started. 🙂

God bless.
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I would repeat the same advice that Francis of Assisi gave to us in our rule and in our admonitions. If they don’t understand or don’t want to understand, don’t bother. Walk away. It is better not to engage in an argument than to try to proselytize. People have to come to these things on God’s schedule, not our schedule.

One of the beauties of Franciscan spirituality is that we have never felt the pressure to convert anyone. We have taught, preached, written great works of theology, participated in all kinds of discussions, but we never felt that we had to win an argument for the other person to become Catholic. Our vision has always been that Christ invites through us and he invites whomever he wishes, when he wishes. We’re just instruments in his hands and insignificant ones at that.

There is an old story and I don’t know if it happened as I’m about to explain it. Each time I hear it, someone adds or leaves out something. But apparently the essence of it is true. St. Clare put it best. She once asked Francis that the Muslims had a better chance of getting into heaven than most Catholics she knew. It would be better for Francis to remain in Europe and convert Catholics back to Christianity. The story must have some truth to it, because Francis did cancel his second trip to the Middle East and said that the brothers were needed more in Europe than in the Holy Land.

The morale of the story . . . you tell the truth. When the person is ready, he will listen. If he’s not ready, he’s just analyzing everything you’re saying and preparing a rebuttal. In our Franciscan mind, that’s called an argument.
 
JReducation said:
I would repeat the same advice that Francis of Assisi gave to us in our rule and in our admonitions. If they don’t understand or don’t want to understand, don’t bother. Walk away. It is better not to engage in an argument than to try to proselytize. People have to come to these things on God’s schedule, not our schedule.

One of the beauties of Franciscan spirituality is that we have never felt the pressure to convert anyone. We have taught, preached, written great works of theology, participated in all kinds of discussions, but we never felt that we had to win an argument for the other person to become Catholic. Our vision has always been that Christ invites through us and he invites whomever he wishes, when he wishes. We’re just instruments in his hands and insignificant ones at that.

There is an old story and I don’t know if it happened as I’m about to explain it. Each time I hear it, someone adds or leaves out something. But apparently the essence of it is true. St. Clare put it best. She once asked Francis that the Muslims had a better chance of getting into heaven than most Catholics she knew. It would be better for Francis to remain in Europe and convert Catholics back to Christianity. The story must have some truth to it, because Francis did cancel his second trip to the Middle East and said that the brothers were needed more in Europe than in the Holy Land.

The morale of the story . . . you tell the truth. When the person is ready, he will listen. If he’s not ready, he’s just analyzing everything you’re saying and preparing a rebuttal. In our Franciscan mind, that’s called an argument.
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Usually I agree with you, J.R., but not on this one.

My husband and I were Evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of our lives, and we used the Bible as our sole authority for our Christian faith.

I believe that every Catholic teaching and practice CAN be authenticated by the Bible. And I also believe that most Evangelical Protestants will never listen to anything else. We have to reach people where they are, not wait for them to come to us.

Think about it–when Christians go to a mission field in a land that is not their own, they don’t wait for the people to become more like them (e.g., learn to speak the best language in the world, English!, put some clothes on!, stop using those voodoo drums and sing REAL music!, etc.) Missionaries become assimilated into the culture, adapting as many of the local customs as possible, and most importantly, they attempt to learn as much of the local language as possible. When they get the opportunity to speak to the people about God, they use communication tools that appeal to the people, e.g., their own local (or heart) language.

That’s what we must do when witnessing to Evangelical Protestants–we must learn to speak “Bible” in order to communicate them. Otherwise, they will not understand us.

It was through reading the Bible on my own years before I became Catholic that I came to understand and accept the use of statues and other artwork in worship of the Lord God. It’s right there in the Old Testament, in the long boring sections about building the tabernacle. So many of us Protestants skimmed through those sections when we were reading the Bible through, which explains why so many Evangelical Protestants don’t know what they actually say!. But if we actually READ those passages of Old Testament Scripture, we see God’s instructions to build statues of angels to adorn the tabernacle.

So long before I ever converted to Catholicism, I was convinced through the Bible that Catholics were doing no wrong and not worshipping idols.

That’s all it takes, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Catholics to attempt to answer the sincere questions of Evangelical Protestants by using the “language” (Bible) that Evangelical Protestants understand. I don’t think we should just walk away and wait. It’s not charitable for us Catholics to live in the great big beautiful castle of Catholicism, and merely wave to our Protestant brothers and sisters making do in tents out on our spacious lawn. These Christians who love Jesus need to learn about His Church and need to be encouraged to “Come on in!”

One other “language” that Evangelical Protestants understand is fervor–an enthusiastic commitment to our Christian faith and the burning desire to tell others the Good News. That’s what being “Evangelical” is all about–evangelizing the world, especially the world where we personally live every day. An Evangelical will appreciate a Catholic who is ready with an answer, or who is willing to go and seek out that answer and then come back and share it. Evangelicals don’t understand “just walking away.” I know it’s the Franciscan way, but frankly, I can’t think of any Evangelical comparison to Franciscan thinking and living. Evangelicals are enthusiastic, and they appreciate enthusiasm in others, especially Catholics.

Finally, it would be good for Catholics to remember that at this time in history, there is huge interest among Evangelical Protestants in “Catholicism.” Many Evangelical Protestants attend non-denominational churches, and many of these non-denoms are utilizing various “Catholic” practices; e.g., lectio divina, candles, chant, confessions, Latin, etc. It’s amazing.

So IMO, we Catholics need to take this as an opening and TELL our Evangelical Protestant friends about “complete” Catholicism. They are already curious. Through their fervor (there’s that word!) for pro-life work, Catholics have convinced many Evangelical Protestant that they are “true Christians.” The organization Evangelicals and Catholics together was founded in part by one of the most trusted Evangelical Protestants of modern time, Chuck Colson (RIP).

So the interest is there, and we Catholics shouldn’t just “walk away.” We should dive right in!
 
Cat said:
Usually I agree with you, J.R., but not on this one.

My husband and I were Evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of our lives, and we used the Bible as our sole authority for our Christian faith.

I believe that every Catholic teaching and practice CAN be authenticated by the Bible. And I also believe that most Evangelical Protestants will never listen to anything else. We have to reach people where they are, not wait for them to come to us.

Think about it–when Christians go to a mission field in a land that is not their own, they don’t wait for the people to become more like them (e.g., learn to speak the best language in the world, English!, put some clothes on!, stop using those voodoo drums and sing REAL music!, etc.) Missionaries become assimilated into the culture, adapting as many of the local customs as possible, and most importantly, they attempt to learn as much of the local language as possible. When they get the opportunity to speak to the people about God, they use communication tools that appeal to the people, e.g., their own local (or heart) language.

That’s what we must do when witnessing to Evangelical Protestants–we must learn to speak “Bible” in order to communicate them. Otherwise, they will not understand us.

It was through reading the Bible on my own years before I became Catholic that I came to understand and accept the use of statues and other artwork in worship of the Lord God. It’s right there in the Old Testament, in the long boring sections about building the tabernacle. So many of us Protestants skimmed through those sections when we were reading the Bible through, which explains why so many Evangelical Protestants don’t know what they actually say!. But if we actually READ those passages of Old Testament Scripture, we see God’s instructions to build statues of angels to adorn the tabernacle.

So long before I ever converted to Catholicism, I was convinced through the Bible that Catholics were doing no wrong and not worshipping idols.

That’s all it takes, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Catholics to attempt to answer the sincere questions of Evangelical Protestants by using the “language” (Bible) that Evangelical Protestants understand. I don’t think we should just walk away and wait. It’s not charitable for us Catholics to live in the great big beautiful castle of Catholicism, and merely wave to our Protestant brothers and sisters making do in tents out on our spacious lawn. These Christians who love Jesus need to learn about His Church and need to be encouraged to “Come on in!”

One other “language” that Evangelical Protestants understand is fervor–an enthusiastic commitment to our Christian faith and the burning desire to tell others the Good News. That’s what being “Evangelical” is all about–evangelizing the world, especially the world where we personally live every day. An Evangelical will appreciate a Catholic who is ready with an answer, or who is willing to go and seek out that answer and then come back and share it. Evangelicals don’t understand “just walking away.” I know it’s the Franciscan way, but frankly, I can’t think of any Evangelical comparison to Franciscan thinking and living. Evangelicals are enthusiastic, and they appreciate enthusiasm in others, especially Catholics.

Finally, it would be good for Catholics to remember that at this time in history, there is huge interest among Evangelical Protestants in “Catholicism.” Many Evangelical Protestants attend non-denominational churches, and many of these non-denoms are utilizing various “Catholic” practices; e.g., lectio divina, candles, chant, confessions, Latin, etc. It’s amazing.

So IMO, we Catholics need to take this as an opening and TELL our Evangelical Protestant friends about “complete” Catholicism. They are already curious. Through their fervor (there’s that word!) for pro-life work, Catholics have convinced many Evangelical Protestant that they are “true Christians.” The organization Evangelicals and Catholics together was founded in part by one of the most trusted Evangelical Protestants of modern time, Chuck Colson (RIP).

So the interest is there, and we Catholics shouldn’t just “walk away.” We should dive right in!
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:blessyou:
 
And I agree with you Cat, Catholic teaching can be authenticated by the Bible. That’s why I always say no one knows the Bible better than the Catholic Church. (Sadly not all Catholics though). 😦
 
I am a strong Catholic but regarding the Bible i have to say that one shouldn’t take everything in it as Gospel! Especially the OT. I believe that the New Testament is 100% true and accurate. The OT to me is full of stories that just dont add up or show God as full of wrath and retribution! This i am sure is wrong.
 
SuS33 said:
As a Catholic, I know and believe we do not worship idols, yet seeing none Catholics talk about us doing it while not being able to defend my faith is upsetting. But it’s ok they don’t understand. My question is how to defend my church against this claim? When did we started making statues for Saints? Is their biblical support to it? Do you know of a book that explains it well so I can explain it to others too?

Thank you, God bless.
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Numbers 21:4-9
 
Cat said:
Usually I agree with you, J.R., but not on this one.

My husband and I were Evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of our lives, and we used the Bible as our sole authority for our Christian faith.

I believe that every Catholic teaching and practice CAN be authenticated by the Bible. And I also believe that most Evangelical Protestants will never listen to anything else. We have to reach people where they are, not wait for them to come to us.

Think about it–when Christians go to a mission field in a land that is not their own, they don’t wait for the people to become more like them (e.g., learn to speak the best language in the world, English!, put some clothes on!, stop using those voodoo drums and sing REAL music!, etc.) Missionaries become assimilated into the culture, adapting as many of the local customs as possible, and most importantly, they attempt to learn as much of the local language as possible. When they get the opportunity to speak to the people about God, they use communication tools that appeal to the people, e.g., their own local (or heart) language.

That’s what we must do when witnessing to Evangelical Protestants–we must learn to speak “Bible” in order to communicate them. Otherwise, they will not understand us.

It was through reading the Bible on my own years before I became Catholic that I came to understand and accept the use of statues and other artwork in worship of the Lord God. It’s right there in the Old Testament, in the long boring sections about building the tabernacle. So many of us Protestants skimmed through those sections when we were reading the Bible through, which explains why so many Evangelical Protestants don’t know what they actually say!. But if we actually READ those passages of Old Testament Scripture, we see God’s instructions to build statues of angels to adorn the tabernacle.

So long before I ever converted to Catholicism, I was convinced through the Bible that Catholics were doing no wrong and not worshipping idols.

That’s all it takes, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Catholics to attempt to answer the sincere questions of Evangelical Protestants by using the “language” (Bible) that Evangelical Protestants understand. I don’t think we should just walk away and wait. It’s not charitable for us Catholics to live in the great big beautiful castle of Catholicism, and merely wave to our Protestant brothers and sisters making do in tents out on our spacious lawn. These Christians who love Jesus need to learn about His Church and need to be encouraged to “Come on in!”

One other “language” that Evangelical Protestants understand is fervor–an enthusiastic commitment to our Christian faith and the burning desire to tell others the Good News. That’s what being “Evangelical” is all about–evangelizing the world, especially the world where we personally live every day. An Evangelical will appreciate a Catholic who is ready with an answer, or who is willing to go and seek out that answer and then come back and share it. Evangelicals don’t understand “just walking away.” I know it’s the Franciscan way, but frankly, I can’t think of any Evangelical comparison to Franciscan thinking and living. Evangelicals are enthusiastic, and they appreciate enthusiasm in others, especially Catholics.

Finally, it would be good for Catholics to remember that at this time in history, there is huge interest among Evangelical Protestants in “Catholicism.” Many Evangelical Protestants attend non-denominational churches, and many of these non-denoms are utilizing various “Catholic” practices; e.g., lectio divina, candles, chant, confessions, Latin, etc. It’s amazing.

So IMO, we Catholics need to take this as an opening and TELL our Evangelical Protestant friends about “complete” Catholicism. They are already curious. Through their fervor (there’s that word!) for pro-life work, Catholics have convinced many Evangelical Protestant that they are “true Christians.” The organization Evangelicals and Catholics together was founded in part by one of the most trusted Evangelical Protestants of modern time, Chuck Colson (RIP).

So the interest is there, and we Catholics shouldn’t just “walk away.” We should dive right in!
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This is not really a matter that requires agreement or disagreement. It’s the vision of Saints Clare and Francis and it has worked for the Franciscan family for 800 years. We present. If the other person listens, we continue to present. If they don’t listen, we back off. We continue to speak through our actions and the way that we live the Gospel. It’s a very simple spirituality and a very simple method of mission.

It’s certainly not the only method. Clare and Francis never said it was. I just put it on the table, because we have used it and it works. I know there are other methods that work as well. The best one being the Jesuit method.

Remember, there are more than 10 schools of evangelization approved by the Catholic Church. The Franciscan School is only one of them. Just choose a school that you’re comfortable with and go with it. Just don’t invent one that the Church does not approve.

Pope Francis has made it very clear that he disapproves of proselytizing. We owe him respect and obedience, even though this is not a dogma, it is the voice of authority speaking. None of the 10 approved schools use proselytism for mission. If one does not like the Franciscan school, one need not disagree with it, because there is nothing to disagree with. It works. One can say that it does not work for him or her and then go looking for another that enjoys the approval of the Church. If I were dealing with Protestants, I would probably become very familiar with Francis de Sales. He was one of the most successful and gentle missionaries among the Protestants. Explore the Salesian School.
 
JReducation said:
This is not really a matter that requires agreement or disagreement. It’s the vision of Saints Clare and Francis and it has worked for the Franciscan family for 800 years. We present. If the other person listens, we continue to present. If they don’t listen, we back off. We continue to speak through our actions and the way that we live the Gospel. It’s a very simple spirituality and a very simple method of mission.

It’s certainly not the only method. Clare and Francis never said it was. I just put it on the table, because we have used it and it works. I know there are other methods that work as well. The best one being the Jesuit method.

Remember, there are more than 10 schools of evangelization approved by the Catholic Church. The Franciscan School is only one of them. Just choose a school that you’re comfortable with and go with it. Just don’t invent one that the Church does not approve.

Pope Francis has made it very clear that he disapproves of proselytizing. We owe him respect and obedience, even though this is not a dogma, it is the voice of authority speaking. None of the 10 approved schools use proselytism for mission. If one does not like the Franciscan school, one need not disagree with it, because there is nothing to disagree with. It works. One can say that it does not work for him or her and then go looking for another that enjoys the approval of the Church. If I were dealing with Protestants, I would probably become very familiar with Francis de Sales. He was one of the most successful and gentle missionaries among the Protestants. Explore the Salesian School.
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I don’t believe in proselytizing either. But I do believe we Christians should speak up and answer questions that people ask, and that we should give witness to our faith in Christ when the opportunity presents itself.

And of course, this should always be done with gentleness. As our first pope wrote, “Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to every one who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and respect.…” (Italics mine.)
 
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