Would a Universal Indult Diffuse Much of the Contentiousness?

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If a universal indult for the Tridentine Mass (1962 rite) was granted do you think it would diffuse much of the contention over the liturgy within the church?

I do think that those who favor the 1962 missal are justified in being angry over the manner in which it has been suppressed.

The whole latin church worshipped a certain way over long periods of time and then everything was just adruptly changed. The rug was essentially pulled out from under folks who loved the 1962 rite. In many instances, the changes were coupled with a deliberate effort to destroy long held traditions of the church (e.g., abandonment of Gregorian chant, Latin, male altar boys etc. . . ).
 
No. Why? Because there are many laymen, priests and bishops who have no interest in the traditional Mass, .
 
I voted yes, however I wish there had been another choice such as “maybe” or “other”.

Anyway, I truly miss the TLM, but I don’t know if it would be possible to bring back the reverence or respect of the laity and clergy. I’m a cradle Catholic, 65years old & 2nd.oldest of 11 of which were all raised in a good Catholic home. We all attended Catholic grade schools taught by Nuns & I was a 4th. Degree K of C and then Vatican II came along & less & less reverence and respect for being in a Catholic Church. I remained a good Catholic for a couple of years after that, to me it seemed to be something new every week. I did leave the Church with Vatican II being the reason I used, and only returned early this year (JP II’s Death). And in all this time (35 to 40 years) I never once blasted the Church, I defended the Church as the one true Church.

I’m sorry for this long post & I know you are asking why I am writing it at all. Well, it is related to this thread in as much as I voted yes in the poll, but as I stated above, I really don’t know if the reverence & respect from the members could or would returned. I miss going to Mass and not being able to meditate because most now days treat It as a social meeting hall. The band, I say band because we don’t have choir, telling jokes, laughing. I know they need to practice, but they do very little of that before Mass. There just isn’t any a reverence or respect any more. In fact I need to go to confession tonight so I can receive our Dear Lord, because last Saturday, after the Virgil evening Mass, our parish has The Adoration of The Blessed Sacrament & I left early, very angry due to the noise from the band. This all electric band can not unplug their instruments without laughing, joking & noise. Also, a party of about 5 or 6 doing their socializing in a pew at the front of the Church.

Sorry, I’ll shut up now, but it did help me to get this off my chest. And if I posted this in the wrong place, please, someone correct me. Oh! I do want to make it very clear, I LOVE the Catholic Religion and I believe in It’s teachings, always have & always will. My rant was not about our religion, it was about some of the members & about reverences no more. I know, call me old fashion!

Mahalo Nui Loa! (Thank You Very Much)! And God Bless all of you!
Aloha,
Rich aka: Like (Lee K)
 
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Like:
I voted yes, however I wish there had been another choice such as “maybe” or “other”.

Anyway, I truly miss the TLM, but I don’t know if it would be possible to bring back the reverence or respect of the laity and clergy. I’m a cradle Catholic, 65years old & 2nd.oldest of 11 of which were all raised in a good Catholic home. We all attended Catholic grade schools taught by Nuns & I was a 4th. Degree K of C and then Vatican II came along & less & less reverence and respect for being in a Catholic Church. I remained a good Catholic for a couple of years after that, to me it seemed to be something new every week. I did leave the Church with Vatican II being the reason I used, and only returned early this year (JP II’s Death). And in all this time (35 to 40 years) I never once blasted the Church, I defended the Church as the one true Church.

I’m sorry for this long post & I know you are asking why I am writing it at all. Well, it is related to this thread in as much as I voted yes in the poll, but as I stated above, I really don’t know if the reverence & respect from the members could or would returned. I miss going to Mass and not being able to meditate because most now days treat It as a social meeting hall. The band, I say band because we don’t have choir, telling jokes, laughing. I know they need to practice, but they do very little of that before Mass. There just isn’t any a reverence or respect any more. In fact I need to go to confession tonight so I can receive our Dear Lord, because last Saturday, after the Virgil evening Mass, our parish has The Adoration of The Blessed Sacrament & I left early, very angry due to the noise from the band. This all electric band can not unplug their instruments without laughing, joking & noise. Also, a party of about 5 or 6 doing their socializing in a pew at the front of the Church.

Sorry, I’ll shut up now, but it did help me to get this off my chest. And if I posted this in the wrong place, please, someone correct me. Oh! I do want to make it very clear, I LOVE the Catholic Religion and I believe in It’s teachings, always have & always will. My rant was not about our religion, it was about some of the members & about reverences no more. I know, call me old fashion!

Mahalo Nui Loa! (Thank You Very Much)! And God Bless all of you!
Aloha,
Rich aka: Like (Lee K)
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Like:

**I’m sympathetic towards you. I feel you. I too struggle with some of the irreverences in my own parish. Also, my pastor likes to use certain liturgical abuses. Sometimes he breaks the bread irreverently and pours the precious blood into the secondary vessels. He also uses common glass vessels as ciborium and chalice. I sent him a few e-mails and he ignores them. Now, I have to report him to the Bishop. I am also tired of all the non-sense that goes on, when the Church is supposed to be quiet and meditative in adoration. They should take their socializing outside to the side walk or parking lot. **

I voted Yes above. I do think that if the Tridintine mass were more widely available, the VII mass would be said more reverently. I would love to see incense used more often and Gregorian Chant (which was prized by VII). Also, I think the Tridintine mass would encourage more respect and appreciation towards tradition and encourage Latin to be used. Also, it would help in the reconciliation of the SSPX and other dissident groups. Also, it would be a good benefit for those that were deeply in love with the Tridintine. I would also like to attend a Tridintine, I never attended one. I don’t know Latin, but maybe I’ll be able to understand a bit because I know Spanish. Also, the missals might have the English translation next to the Latin.
 
I voted no because I don’t think many parishes would change, which is sad. The Pope would probably have to go further and require at least one Tridentine Latin Mass each Sunday in each parish.
  • Kathie :bowdown:
 
No, but for a different reason. The ultra traditionalists are begining to claim that a Universal indult is a slap in the face to the nobility of the Tridentine Liturgy and that Rome must recognize that no indult is required and that each priest has the right and ability to celebrate the Tridentine Liturgy at will.

… best laid plans of mice …
 
No, there seems to be so much anger and bitterness on both sides that I’m not sure a universal indult would help. There would still be those who consider the TLM a return to the dark ages and those who think of the NO as wrong no matter how reverently celebrated. It’s a pity, the Church has so much to offer in both of those Masses, having both readily available to most, if not all Catholics, would be a wonderful thing.
 
I voted “no” because there would still be liturgists and priests who would want to defy the laws of the Church and change the Mass to the way they want it.

And the bishops would still refuse to enforce the laws of the Church.
 
I voted no because, outside of what I read here and elsewhere on the internet, this seems to be a non-issue with most Catholics today that I’ve come across. I think your average Catholic is more concerned about just the struggles of their lives, how to be a better person, how to cope with work, kids, sorrow, death, and the other troubles of life. Life is so difficult and there is so much to contend with that I really don’t have the energy of worrying about the TLM. If the Church wants the TLM or the Novus Ordo, I’ll accept either one.
 
I hope that it would help. I love the TLM and have no access to it. I would like to see that one is prayed in each diocese. I have also seen how the laity totally changes their behavior in a TLM vs a Novus Ordo. I think it is possible with a lot of help from clergy. I think most people just don’t understand the difference because most of the people my age (37) and younger have never experienced it. When I talk about it to people in my parrish, most have a great desire to experience the TLM and one of the most common complaints that I hear at my parrish is the lack of reverence. Anyway, I think that a wider application and an openness and enthusiasm for it would be a great thing. I am not recommending a total return, but giving the community a choice. It’s like telling someone they have a choice between green and purple, except that the person has never experienced purple. They may love purple if they had been aware that it existed.
I actually looked around my parrish this morning and thought that people don’t mean to be irreverent, they just never had to be. That it was never shown to them or asked of them. I know that since going to the TLM whenever I can, I have changed my behavior at my parrish. Just a thought, could be way off base and it wouldn’t be the first time.
 
I see no hope that a universal indult will be granted and even if it were, I don’t think most Bishops would support it’s implementation. Heck, a lot of them don’t want it now. Lets face it, most priests are not going to buck the Bishop. No support at the Diocesan level, no indult Mass. Period.

Another problem is that Latin is no longer a required subject for Priests, and while the rubrics of the Mass aren’t really difficult to learn, saying the prayers in Latin in the manner that a Priest needs to probably would be.

No it wouldn’t help, it would just be more of the same old thing, style over substance.
 
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Monica37:
I hope that it would help. I love the TLM and have no access to it. I would like to see that one is prayed in each diocese. I have also seen how the laity totally changes their behavior in a TLM vs a Novus Ordo. I think it is possible with a lot of help from clergy. I think most people just don’t understand the difference because most of the people my age (37) and younger have never experienced it. When I talk about it to people in my parrish, most have a great desire to experience the TLM and one of the most common complaints that I hear at my parrish is the lack of reverence. Anyway, I think that a wider application and an openness and enthusiasm for it would be a great thing. I am not recommending a total return, but giving the community a choice. It’s like telling someone they have a choice between green and purple, except that the person has never experienced purple. They may love purple if they had been aware that it existed.
I actually looked around my parrish this morning and thought that people don’t mean to be irreverent, they just never had to be. That it was never shown to them or asked of them. I know that since going to the TLM whenever I can, I have changed my behavior at my parrish. Just a thought, could be way off base and it wouldn’t be the first time.
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Amen!
Monica, I do not think you are off base at all! I do wish we had a choice here, but there is one parish in Honolulu that offers 1 TLM Mass on Sundays, however I would have to jump on a plane to attend. :eek:

It is refreshing to hear you say, after attending one, it has changed your behavior in your own parish. 👍
God Bless you all!
Rich
 
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mosher:
No, but for a different reason. The ultra traditionalists are begining to claim that a Universal indult is a slap in the face to the nobility of the Tridentine Liturgy and that Rome must recognize that no indult is required and that each priest has the right and ability to celebrate the Tridentine Liturgy at will.

… best laid plans of mice …
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Actually, there can be made a point that no indult should be required, to wit, Quo Primum, issued by Pope St. Pius V.

Link: unavoce.org/quoprim.htm
 
no indult is needed to privately say this mass. one is needed to pubicly say this mass says the magisterium.

what happened when a universal indult was rumored :confused: there was a threatened schism in the sspx over this. some will never be happy.

once again, sorry about the lack of caps. keyboard was spilled on
 
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palmas85:
Another problem is that Latin is no longer a required subject for Priests, and while the rubrics of the Mass aren’t really difficult to learn, saying the prayers in Latin in the manner that a Priest needs to probably would be.

No it wouldn’t help, it would just be more of the same old thing, style over substance.
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I just don’t think you’re correct here, I took a peek at the Latin mass rubrics, and they sure looked detailed to me, detailing to the priest what tone of voice to use at various parts, where exactly to move his hands, etc.

Something that detailed just seems as if it would be a bear to learn and do correctly.
 
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palmas85:
Another problem is that Latin is no longer a required subject for Priests, and while the rubrics of the Mass aren’t really difficult to learn, saying the prayers in Latin in the manner that a Priest needs to probably would be.
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Technically the laws of the Church require that a Seminary provide each seminarian with a “working knowledge” of latin. Even though this is not followed in most seminaries it is begining to happen more and more. At Mount Angel Seminary (which is by no means a pillar of orthodoxy) latin is required for the college seminarians unless waived by the Bishop which is definatelly a step in the right direction.
Warren Mass:
Actually, there can be made a point that no indult should be required, to wit, Quo Primum, issued by Pope St. Pius V.
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I am aware of this and actually place my thoughts with that of Cardinal Hoyos who says that per Quo Primus not universal indult is required but rather a lifting of the restriction is required.
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Kielbasi:
I just don’t think you’re correct here, I took a peek at the Latin mass rubrics, and they sure looked detailed to me, detailing to the priest what tone of voice to use at various parts, where exactly to move his hands, etc.

Something that detailed just seems as if it would be a bear to learn and do correctly.
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The rubrics are not that hard. What is harder is memorizing all the parts that have to be recited by memory and learning how to determine what prayers are said each year based on the old calander which can be very complicated some years and determining what level of solemnity each day holds so that they are said in the right order or what is omitted or added that day based on the calander. These “side bar” issues are much more complicated than the rubrics themselves.
 
The rubrics are not that hard. What is harder is memorizing all the parts that have to be recited by memory and learning how to determine what prayers are said each year based on the old calander which can be very complicated some years and determining what level of solemnity each day holds so that they are said in the right order or what is omitted or added that day based on the calander.
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In other words, the rubrics.
 
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Chatter163:
In other words, the rubrics.
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Well yes in the greater sense but the actions and gestures are not difficult to learn. The mechanics, so to speak, are very simple because they are explained ver percisely.
 
Knowing which Mass to celebrate on which day is a huge rubircal part of celebrating the Mass. As for the gestures and movements, these are considerable, especially for a priest accustomed to the new Mass, where there are very few such features. The sheer multiplicity and precision of the movements is quite a task to learn, especially for those with little experience in the old rite. As an MC for a traditional parish, I can appreciate this.
 
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Chatter163:
Knowing which Mass to celebrate on which day is a huge rubircal part of celebrating the Mass. As for the gestures and movements, these are considerable, especially for a priest accustomed to the new Mass, where there are very few such features. The sheer multiplicity and precision of the movements is quite a task to learn, especially for those with little experience in the old rite. As an MC for a traditional parish, I can appreciate this.
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I also MC and have helped a few priests with some particulars in their role in the Tridentine Mass. I found it to be difficult - but I guess it is a matter of perspective.
 
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