Would a Universal Indult Diffuse Much of the Contentiousness?

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If the universal indult occured, you still have to find priests willing to perform the Tridentine Mass. This is why I voted “no” because I don’t feel that there would be enough priests willing to do it. On the other hand, the indult COULD include a special way for parishioners, if there is a general desire for it, the priest must comply. After all, the priest is the servant of the Church 🙂
 
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Mordocai:
If the universal indult occured, you still have to find priests willing to perform the Tridentine Mass. This is why I voted “no” because I don’t feel that there would be enough priests willing to do it. On the other hand, the indult COULD include a special way for parishioners, if there is a general desire for it, the priest must comply. After all, the priest is the servant of the Church 🙂
This has nto been the case. In the Diocese of Phoenix the new Bishop, Bishop Olmstead, has actually done what JPII asked in Ecclesia Dei and is sending priests to the Seminary in Lincoln to learn to celebrate the Tridentine Mass and among us younger guys there is a broad interest and has been accepted well by the faithful in the diocese.
 
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mosher:
This has nto been the case. In the Diocese of Phoenix the new Bishop, Bishop Olmstead, has actually done what JPII asked in Ecclesia Dei and is sending priests to the Seminary in Lincoln to learn to celebrate the Tridentine Mass and among us younger guys there is a broad interest and has been accepted well by the faithful in the diocese.
I had not heard this. Do you know how many have been sent or are going to be sent?

I do know there has been interaction with the FSSP, including the recent addition of a young priest to celebrate the Tridentine mass.
 
Roman_Army said:
Like:

**I’m sympathetic towards you. I feel you. I too struggle with some of the irreverences in my own parish. Also, my pastor likes to use certain liturgical abuses. Sometimes he breaks the bread irreverently and pours the precious blood into the secondary vessels. He also uses common glass vessels as ciborium and chalice. I sent him a few e-mails and he ignores them. Now, I have to report him to the Bishop. I am also tired of all the non-sense that goes on, when the Church is supposed to be quiet and meditative in adoration. They should take their socializing outside to the side walk or parking lot. **

I voted Yes above. I do think that if the Tridintine mass were more widely available, the VII mass would be said more reverently. I would love to see incense used more often and Gregorian Chant (which was prized by VII). Also, I think the Tridintine mass would encourage more respect and appreciation towards tradition and encourage Latin to be used. Also, it would help in the reconciliation of the SSPX and other dissident groups. Also, it would be a good benefit for those that were deeply in love with the Tridintine. I would also like to attend a Tridintine, I never attended one. I don’t know Latin, but maybe I’ll be able to understand a bit because I know Spanish. Also, the missals might have the English translation next to the Latin.

Roman Army:

The old St. Joseph’s Missal had Latin on one page and an English (or whatever language that country spoke) facing it on the opposite page. It also had “Rubrics” and from the Alter Missal and directions for devout worship.

I understand other editions had the same. I’m an Anglican with some friends who attend the Indult Masses in the area - They say they are reverent and respecful of the Sacred Elements and of the Faith.

I’ve heard of parishes where they have been designated by their Ordinaries as the Latin Indult parishes in their Diocese. They have almost none of the abuses or lack of reverence that posters describe in Catholic Answers and elsewhere.

I also know that Fr. Fessio is promoting something he calls “The Mass of Vatican II”, which is a Latin Novus Ordo, done with the priest facing East and with the same Gregorian Chants, etc. as the old TLM. He’s found similar results with that as many are getting with the old TLM.

I voted yes, because the old TLM, as the Anglican Missal Mass we use in our church, encourages reverence for the Eucharist and for the Church.

I think some of those in the SSPX would be brought back, but many would remain schismatic. That can’t be the reason to do this… Encouraging reverence and providing a safe place for Catholics who need that Mass should be the reasons.

In Christ, Michael
 
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Chatter163:
Knowing which Mass to celebrate on which day is a huge rubircal part of celebrating the Mass. As for the gestures and movements, these are considerable, especially for a priest accustomed to the new Mass, where there are very few such features. The sheer multiplicity and precision of the movements is quite a task to learn, especially for those with little experience in the old rite. As an MC for a traditional parish, I can appreciate this.
Chatter163:

I think the first problem will be a “Culture Shock”. In the TLM, as in an Anglican Solemn High Mass, an MC is a NECESSITY. If I understand this correctly, every Sunday TLM is a Solemn High Mass or at least a “Missa Cantata”, both of which require an MC.

I actually served Sunday Masses at St. Ignatius in San Francisco some 25+ years ago. I don’t recall ever even hearing the term “MC” or “Ceremonarius”! Even a “HIgh Mass” as is done on Easter or Christmas doesn’t reguire an MC in the Novus Ordo!

As you know, In the TLM, the MC is the only LAYMAN (OK - You’re in Minor Orders) in all of Christendom who can tell the Pope where to go or what to do during Mass and the Pope has to go there or do that!

I remember watching our Ceremonarius leading the Primate of the TAC around one Sunday.

These guys are in for a shock!

In Christ, Michael
 
As you know, In the TLM, the MC is the only LAYMAN (OK - You’re in Minor Orders) in all of Christendom who can tell the Pope where to go or what to do during Mass and the Pope has to go there or do that!
Well, the Pope’s MC is always a priest, often a bishop, and occasionally a cardinal. Certainly the roles of the “inferior ministers at the throne” were taken by archbishops!

In any case, a lot of work goes into being an MC, even if you are a layman in a parish setting.
 
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pgoings:
Well, the Pope’s MC is always a priest, often a bishop, and occasionally a cardinal. Certainly the roles of the “inferior ministers at the throne” were taken by archbishops!

In any case, a lot of work goes into being an MC, even if you are a layman in a parish setting.
What exactly does MC stand for and what are his duties? I would think the TLM is pretty much set in stone, not requiring much direction.
 
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dts:
I had not heard this. Do you know how many have been sent or are going to be sent?

I do know there has been interaction with the FSSP, including the recent addition of a young priest to celebrate the Tridentine mass.
No, but I can check with the guys … err, the current seminarians from the diocese.
 
I voted no because people will go to Mass wherever they want to. Today the majority of Catholics are used to the Novus Ordo and the TLM and NO are so different from each other.

The majoity of people even in the pews do not hold the Catholic faith anymore, and even applaud at new innovations visiting priests bring in. It is a very sad age we live in, very sad indeed.

The only way to diffuse the contentiousness is to go back to the TLM altogether, slowly reversing the NO practices until we get back to the way things were in 1962 Mass. Imposing this Mass is the only thing that will absolutely diffuse, in fact it will slice the Church into two showing the already existing schism.

Ken
 
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kleary:
I voted no because people will go to Mass wherever they want to. Today the majority of Catholics are used to the Novus Ordo and the TLM and NO are so different from each other.

The majoity of people even in the pews do not hold the Catholic faith anymore, and even applaud at new innovations visiting priests bring in. It is a very sad age we live in, very sad indeed.

The only way to diffuse the contentiousness is to go back to the TLM altogether, slowly reversing the NO practices until we get back to the way things were in 1962 Mass. Imposing this Mass is the only thing that will absolutely diffuse, in fact it will slice the Church into two showing the already existing schism.

Ken
How the heck do you know? Who appointed you judge? Rarely have I seen such an arrogant statement on these forums.

Two things are for certain. The Tridentine Mass ain’t a silver-bullet, and the normative Pauline Mass isn’t going to be trashed.
 
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SnorterLuster:
What exactly does MC stand for and what are his duties? I would think the TLM is pretty much set in stone, not requiring much direction.
SnorterLuster:

MC = “Master of Ceremonies” also known in crowded or busy sanctuaries as the “Traffic Cop” or “Sanctuary Traffic Control”.

Although most of the TLM seems to be set in Marble, the TLM is complicated and has an almost liturgical dance like quality if done correctly. The TLM usu. involves a Priest, Deacon and Subdeacon as Sacred Ministers (3 in a row for most of the Mass), as well as a variety of Acolytes (Crucifer, Thurifer, Boatbuy, 2 Torchbearers, 2 Servers and the MC).

Any additions quickly crowd the Sanctuary still more - Bishops always have assistants - Pontifical Hight Mass (at least 2 mosre in the Sanctuary); Sung Te Deum - 2nd Thurifer with boatboy (2 more in the Sanctuary), Layreader for an OT reading or a Guest Preacher… Potential for 17 people in the Sanctuary!

In the TLM, as in an Anglican High Mass, someone has to tell all of these people where to go and when to go. that’s the MC.

I hope I’ve made this clear.

In Christ, Michael
 
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AltarMan:
How the heck do you know? Who appointed you judge? Rarely have I seen such an arrogant statement on these forums.

Two things are for certain. The Tridentine Mass ain’t a silver-bullet, and the normative Pauline Mass isn’t going to be trashed.
70 percent of Catholics today DO NOT believe in Transubstantiation or the sacrificial nature of the mass.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=60472

I have been to Mass when the priest would say, “And the Lord be with you”, the people would respond… then he would take the microphone off the stand and shout, “I cannot hear you”… and the people would shout very loudly “AND ALSO WITH YOU”… and the woman next to me said, “Hey, this is fun! All masses should be this way!”

And I will tell you this- my experience at my first TLM Solemn Mass proves enough to me, reading the text of the TLM comparing it to the N.O. is enough for me.

And do NOT ever bank on a liturgy that is only 35 years old or so not being discarded, especially when it is to blame for the lack of faith in the majority of Catholics today.

Ken
 
I think the best result would be to establish two distinct rites–the Tridentine rite and the Novus Ordo rite. We already have several Eastern Catholic rites in the Catholic Church.

With a separate Tridentine rite, bishops could be ordained and could establish churches to administer the pre-Vatican II rite.

Catholics would have the choice of which rite to belong to, but once they chose a particular rite, they would not be able to switch back.

There would still probably be tension over limited financial resources. Already, I’ve heard several Catholic priests who celebrate the Novus Ordo mass (and not very reverently I might add) in one of the churches I go to complain that too many Catholics are giving money to the Society of St. Peter’s church a couple of towns away and it’s hurting their finances and pet projects.
 
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Mordocai:
If the universal indult occured, you still have to find priests willing to perform the Tridentine Mass. This is why I voted “no” because I don’t feel that there would be enough priests willing to do it. On the other hand, the indult COULD include a special way for parishioners, if there is a general desire for it, the priest must comply. After all, the priest is the servant of the Church 🙂
My own personal observation is that the younger priests are much more interested in learning the Tridentine Mass than the older priests. Just a vignette, but the Tridentine Mass in Pequanock (sp?), New Jersey has at least three priests and they all appear to be under the age of 40 and all they celebrate is the Tridentine Mass. In contrast, the priests at the Novus Ordo Masses in Morristown, Bernardsville, Harding Township, etc. are all in their 60s and 70s. And the Tridentine Masses appear to be producing more vocations on a parish by parish basis than the Novus Ordo Masses. So I don’t think you’ll have a problem finding priests to say the Tridentine Mass. A hundred years from now, however, you may have a problem finding priests to say the Novus Ordo Mass. :dancing:
 
Traditional Ang:
SnorterLuster:

MC = “Master of Ceremonies” also known in crowded or busy sanctuaries as the “Traffic Cop” or “Sanctuary Traffic Control”.

Although most of the TLM seems to be set in Marble, the TLM is complicated and has an almost liturgical dance like quality if done correctly. The TLM usu. involves a Priest, Deacon and Subdeacon as Sacred Ministers (3 in a row for most of the Mass), as well as a variety of Acolytes (Crucifer, Thurifer, Boatbuy, 2 Torchbearers, 2 Servers and the MC).

Any additions quickly crowd the Sanctuary still more - Bishops always have assistants - Pontifical Hight Mass (at least 2 mosre in the Sanctuary); Sung Te Deum - 2nd Thurifer with boatboy (2 more in the Sanctuary), Layreader for an OT reading or a Guest Preacher… Potential for 17 people in the Sanctuary!

In the TLM, as in an Anglican High Mass, someone has to tell all of these people where to go and when to go. that’s the MC.

I hope I’ve made this clear.

In Christ, Michael
Altar boys used to have little index cards that had the moves diagrammed onthem telling them where to go, when to go and what to do when they got there. It was always rumored that the Priests had them as well. The three prayer cards on the Altar were there only as an aid to the Priest should he forget any of the prayers proper wording.

It took a long time and a lot of practice to get the Mass done correctly. A lot of times people went where they weren’y supposed to, or stumbled on the words, but when done correctly, magnificent, simply magnificent.
 
SFH said:
**I think the best result would be to establish two distinct rites–the Tridentine rite and the Novus Ordo rite. ** We already have several Eastern Catholic rites in the Catholic Church.

With a separate Tridentine rite, bishops could be ordained and could establish churches to administer the pre-Vatican II rite.

Catholics would have the choice of which rite to belong to, but once they chose a particular rite, they would not be able to switch back.

There would still probably be tension over limited financial resources. Already, I’ve heard several Catholic priests who celebrate the Novus Ordo mass (and not very reverently I might add) in one of the churches I go to complain that too many Catholics are giving money to the Society of St. Peter’s church a couple of towns away and it’s hurting their finances and pet projects.

Naw, I don’t think so. That would be horribly devisive. You already hear some extremists referring to certain churches (parishes) as a “TLM church” or a “NO church.” That sort of mixed-up thinking should not be perpetuated.

You also seem rather confused about funding. The truth is, many Tridentine Masses are already not self-supportive, and to suggest that most “TLM churches” (sic) would be self-supportive is likely a fantasy. Sure, some might do very well in large cities, but the rest would likely be tiny parishes that meet in tiny church buildings – or at the local Ramada Inn conference room on SUndays.
 
kleary said:
70 percent of Catholics today DO NOT believe in Transubstantiation or the sacrificial nature of the mass.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=60472

I have been to Mass when the priest would say, “And the Lord be with you”, the people would respond… then he would take the microphone off the stand and shout, “I cannot hear you”… and the people would shout very loudly “AND ALSO WITH YOU”… and the woman next to me said, “Hey, this is fun! All masses should be this way!”

And I will tell you this- my experience at my first TLM Solemn Mass proves enough to me, reading the text of the TLM comparing it to the N.O. is enough for me.

And do NOT ever bank on a liturgy that is only 35 years old or so not being discarded, especially when it is to blame for the lack of faith in the majority of Catholics today.

Ken

Your comments show just how limited your knowledge is about both the Church and the Mass. It’s sad to see, but it’s nothing new, nor is it uncommon.

First you had better find out the real results of that Gallup poll you are misquoting. The results will astound you.

There were (and are) horrid abuses during the Tridentine Masses long before the Pauline Mass was with us. To suggest the Tridentine Mass is somehow “better” than the normative AVM (Ancient Vernacular Mass) is simply incorrect. You might like your Mass (the “TLM”) based on the 16th century Church. I prefer the first century Church (the normative AVM.).
 
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dts:
If a universal indult for the Tridentine Mass (1962 rite) was granted do you think it would diffuse much of the contention over the liturgy within the church?

I do think that those who favor the 1962 missal are justified in being angry over the manner in which it has been suppressed.

The whole latin church worshipped a certain way over long periods of time and then everything was just adruptly changed. The rug was essentially pulled out from under folks who loved the 1962 rite. In many instances, the changes were coupled with a deliberate effort to destroy long held traditions of the church (e.g., abandonment of Gregorian chant, Latin, male altar boys etc. . . ).

The trouble is, people had grown up in in a style of Catholicism which made obedience the supreme virtue. It was a very authoritarian style. So there was an unspoken assumption that people would obey orders, & change their liturgical & devotional habits, when and as commanded.​

That sort of attitude is a great part of the problem, ISTM - attention shifts from whether a course of action is prudent and good, to whether it is commanded; and if so, what the grounds for the validity of the command may be. It didn’t help that there was a spirituality of obedience which treated any command of a superior as valid, simply because it was an order. People weren’t taught to ask “Does this seem as if it is a good thing for the Church ?” - they were taught to do what “Father”, the bishop, the Cardinal, and the Pope said.

So whether people loved the old Mass or not, was simply not relevant. As people point out here, “The CC is not a democracy” - & the bishops at Vatican II didn’t think it was. They and the Pope were acting within their rights by denying the Old Mass to people: so what if people wanted it ? Tough - this is the CC, not a democracy. In the CC, the bishops rule - not the laity. So if the bishop says, “No more Mass as in 1962” - then it disobedient and rebellious and wicked, in 1969 or so, to insist on it. This idea is not yet dead - the disobiedience of some Catholics in this matter is astonishing. IOW if the laity are Catholics, they will do what they are told.

We are still stuck in that rut, when there are more important things to consider.

The point is, people have not been deprived of anything. The way they are encouraged to sneak to Rome about their rulers in the Church is utterly disgraceful, and would not have been tolerated in the 1950s, not for ten seconds.

So the present situation, in which traditionalist groups are free to form, would have been unthinkable if the ethos of 50s Catholicism still survived intact - the chaos of the late 60s and the 70s is probably a major cause of how it is possible for such groups to form; that, and the declaration of Pius XII that it belonged to the Pope, and no lesser authority, to change the liturgy. If the Pope can do that - then the Pope is free to reject the Old Mass. And did.

From one POV, the rejection of the Old Mass is a long-range by-product of Vatican I, which gave the Pope total control over the whole Church as a matter of divine right. No one one can tell an infallible and omnicompetent authority what not to do. So Pius IX or Pius XII is the man to blame for the New Mass. 🙂

As for your question: not if one equates having the Old Mass with rejecting the Pauline Missal: an indult is unlikely to satisfy the SSPX and others. ##
 
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SFH:
I think the best result would be to establish two distinct rites–the Tridentine rite and the Novus Ordo rite. We already have several Eastern Catholic rites in the Catholic Church.

With a separate Tridentine rite, bishops could be ordained and could establish churches to administer the pre-Vatican II rite.

Catholics would have the choice of which rite to belong to, but once they chose a particular rite, they would not be able to switch back.

There would still probably be tension over limited financial resources. Already, I’ve heard several Catholic priests who celebrate the Novus Ordo mass (and not very reverently I might add) in one of the churches I go to complain that too many Catholics are giving money to the Society of St. Peter’s church a couple of towns away and it’s hurting their finances and pet projects.
This would never fly because one of the major points of contention is that the traditionalists want an official recognition that the Tridentine Rite is the Rite of the Western Church and that the document of Pius V still holds true when he promulgeted the codified Tridintine Mass. To create seperate ecclesial jurisdictions would do exactly the opposite. It would also further complicate the juridical governance of the Church and a seperate Rite would have to be established which has significant ramification for the celebration of the other sacraments especially matrimony. The best compromise has been with the Campos group down in Brasil but that is still an experiment.
 
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