Would an Egyptian ever want to be Catholic?

[Alma]

It saddens me to think what people from Egypt may think when they read in the Bible that God is praised because He destroyed the Pharaoh and the Egyptians.
We would not like to read in the Bible that God is praised because He thrown our ancestors into the sea,:bigyikes: so I worry that this can stop Egyptian people from ever converting to the Catholic faith.

What do you think about it?

Alma

 

[oldfogey]

I would point out the strong connections that Egypt has to our faith such as the story of Joseph and the Holy Family’s flight to Egypt. In fact, I think I’ve read that the flight to Egypt in part fulfilled a prophesy…“I will call my son out of Egypt.”

Egypt was immensely imprtant in the early Church, and monastacism started there.

 

[Katie1723]

I work with two physicians, both of whom were born in Egypt, who are Catholic. They have no problems with it.
~ Kathy ~

 

[Contarini]

Alma:

It saddens me to think what people from Egypt may think when they read in the Bible that God is praised because He destroyed the Pharaoh and the Egyptians.
We would not like to read in the Bible that God is praised because He thrown our ancestors into the sea,:bigyikes: so I worry that this can stop Egyptian people from ever converting to the Catholic faith.

What do you think about it?

Alma

That’s not an issue. The original Egyptians did convert to Christianity. In fact, Egypt was a major Christian center for centuries. The remnants of the original population, the Copts, are Christians to this day (though only a minority of them are Catholic–most of them belong to the Coptic Orthodox Church, which has been in schism since the fifth century). That’s not to say that there are not many descendants of the original inhabitants among the Muslims too–genetically I’m sure that pretty much all Egyptians have some ancient Egyptian ancestry. But culturally it’s the Copts who maintain ancient Egyptian traditions inasmuch as anyone does.

What keeps Egyptians from becoming Christians is not the Biblical narrative but the Muslim conquest! And insofar as historical events keep the Copts from becoming Catholics, it would be their persecution by Justinian’s armies (though that’s more something they hold against the Orthodox).

Edwin

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I don’t think that there was any great antagonism between Egypt and Israel in the OT [after the Exodus I mean]. Many flew to Egypt for refuge after the Babylonian conquest [2Kings 25:25-26], despite Isaiah’s warning [Is 30:2 for example]. It apparently was traditional to flee to Egypt for safety in time of danger [see Jeroboam 1 Kings 12:20]. Thus there was probably a significant Jewish community in Egypt at the time Joseph, Mary and Jesus fled there.

From Egypt’s point of view, Israel and Judea provided a buffer against the Assyrian, Babylonian and later Persian empires.

All my :twocents: . My knowledge of this period of history is quite limited.

 

[Kristina_P]

Alma:

It saddens me to think what people from Egypt may think when they read in the Bible that God is praised because He destroyed the Pharaoh and the Egyptians.
We would not like to read in the Bible that God is praised because He thrown our ancestors into the sea,:bigyikes: so I worry that this can stop Egyptian people from ever converting to the Catholic faith.

What do you think about it?

Alma

Well, God also punished the Jews with some really terrible stuff, and the Jews praise Him for it!
This isn’t a God-hates-a-certain-country thing. God also blessed Egypt greatly when they were kind to His people. God punished Egypt when they sinned against Him and enslaved His people. I don’t think modern Egyptians should have too much trouble with this concept.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Joe Kelley:

I don’t think that there was any great antagonism between Egypt and Israel in the OT [after the Exodus I mean]. Many flew to Egypt for refuge after the Babylonian conquest [2Kings 25:25-26], despite Isaiah’s warning [Is 30:2 for example]. It apparently was traditional to flee to Egypt for safety in time of danger [see Jeroboam 1 Kings 12:20]. Thus there was probably a significant Jewish community in Egypt at the time Joseph, Mary and Jesus fled there.

From Egypt’s point of view, Israel and Judea provided a buffer against the Assyrian, Babylonian and later Persian empires.

All my :twocents: . My knowledge of this period of history is quite limited.

Some horrible things are said about Babylonia in the Bible - that hasn’t stopped the Church putting down roots there. And Mesopotamia is as heavily Arabised as Egypt. So today’s Iraqis are no more likely to take offence at the Bible’s rants against Babylonia than the present population of Egypt is likely to be offended by some of what the Bible says about Egypt.​

 

[Maccabees]

I can see where people of Assyrian or Egyptian decent would not want to convert to Judaism anytime soon.
But the apostle Paul clearly knocked down the wall for gentiles coming into the church both the Assyrians or Chaldeans that dominate Babylon converted wholesale to catholcism and did Egyptians due to theolgical disputes or misunderstandings The Coptics broke from Catholcism but they remained Christian nontheless until the Muslim conquest of North Africa, the Assrians split but many remained catholic even until this day but they have relegated to minority status in present Day Iraw because of the Muslim conquest there. None of these ethnic rivals to the Jews saw any conflict with their ethnicity and the old testament rendering of their ancestors. The New Testament put everybody on the same level - all have sinner and come short and glory of God. We all need a savior whether Jew or Gentile and the letter of Paul wipe of the favored ethnic status of the Hebrew. This hasn’t been a problem in Christiantiy till fundamentilist christiantiy have turned into Zionist albeit with twisted movitve of ushering the end times with their support of the state of Israel. Surely in the mystery of salvation the Jews are a blessed people but just not in the way Zionist or fundamentilist view a Jewish Kingdom on earth

 

[Alma]

Thank you all for your excellent replies! :bowdown2:

What ‘Maccabees’ says about the New Testament reminds me of something Cardinal Ratzinger said in the book ‘God and the World’ (where he was interviewed by German journalist Peter Seewald), that both the Old and the New Testament complement each other.

I suppose if an Egyptian reads that in the New Testament the story of Exodus has a very important spiritual significance: that God liberates all of us from the slavery of sin (the Egyptian included), he would understand it in a new way and not only he would not feel aggravated by it, but he would be grateful!



Alma

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

2 years late I am. I must point out than until the 1300’s 70% of Egypt’s population was Coptic Orthodox. It was only a crusade in the late 1200’s that finally got the majority to tip over to Islam after renewed persecution following a very badly done crusade agains the Mamelukes. In the 1300’s we also had a small amount of Christians left in Libya. One of the things I often find interesting is to speculate what Christian culture was like in North Africa, west of Egypt in the early middle ages. It is one of those relatively unknown territories people barely remember existed in a non-arabic form.

 

[Montalban]

It saddens me to think what people from Egypt may think when they read in the Bible that God is praised because He destroyed the Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

Alma

Egypt was a major centre for Christianity for centuries. Alexandria being one of the five major centres.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

It saddens me to think what people from Egypt may think when they read in the Bible that God is praised because He destroyed the Pharaoh and the Egyptians.
We would not like to read in the Bible that God is praised because He thrown our ancestors into the sea,:bigyikes: so I worry that this can stop Egyptian people from ever converting to the Catholic faith.

What do you think about it?

Alma

Actually the Copts of Egypt often have (in Arabic and Coptic) the verse “Blessed be Egypt My People” out of Isaiah.

The Coptic Church has a variety of hymns that celebrate the Exodus. And they also universally circumcize, a sign they say, that the circumcized (the Hebrews) overcame the world through Christ. Exodus doesn’t cause any more problem for the Egyptians than Maccabbees does for Greeks.

Now, the question of “Christian” Zionism, that’s another matter…

 

[adventistnomore]

Absolutely right, Egypt was ALREADY converted to Christianity. And, as noted earlier, they reconciled themselves to the Old Testament tradition because it had already embraced them: “Blessed is Egypt, my people.” (Is 19:25).

 

[gallardo]

I work with two physicians, both of whom were born in Egypt, who are Catholic. They have no problems with it.

                     ~ Kathy ~

“Luckily” those two Egyptians physicians are not priests, otherwise:

1-3 "And now this indictment, you priests! If you refuse to obediently listen, and if you refuse to honor me, God-of-the-Angel-Armies, in worship, then I’ll put you under a curse. I’ll exchange all your blessings for curses. In fact, the curses are already at work because you’re not serious about honoring me. Yes, and the curse will extend to your children. I’m going to plaster your faces with rotting garbage, garbage thrown out from your feasts. That’s what you have to look forward to!
(Malachi 2 - The Message Bible)

I wonder what non-Christian Egyptian priests would do after knowing above qoute from Holy Bible.

 

[gallardo]

Isaiah 20
Exposed to Mockery and Jeers
1-2 In the year the field commander, sent by King Sargon of Assyria, came to Ashdod and fought and took it, God told Isaiah son of Amoz, “Go, take off your clothes and sandals,” and Isaiah did it, going about naked and barefooted.
3-**6Then God said, “Just as my servant Isaiah has walked around town naked and barefooted for three years as a warning sign to Egypt and Ethiopia, **so the king of Assyria is going to come and take the Egyptians as captives and the Ethiopians as exiles. He’ll take young and old alike and march them out of there naked and barefooted, exposed to mockery and jeers—the bared buttocks of Egypt on parade! Everyone who has put hope in Ethiopia and expected help from Egypt will be thrown into confusion. Everyone who lives along this coast will say, ‘Look at them! Naked and barefooted, shuffling off to exile! And we thought they were our best hope, that they’d rescue us from the king of Assyria. Now what’s going to happen to us? How are we going to get out of this?’” (The Message Bible)

What?? Isaiah walked naked for threee years!!??!! as a WARNING for what!!.

 

[inJESUS]

Isaiah 20
Exposed to Mockery and Jeers
1-2 In the year the field commander, sent by King Sargon of Assyria, came to Ashdod and fought and took it, God told Isaiah son of Amoz, “Go, take off your clothes and sandals,” and Isaiah did it, going about naked and barefooted.
3-**6Then God said, “Just as my servant Isaiah has walked around town naked and barefooted for three years as a warning sign to Egypt and Ethiopia, **so the king of Assyria is going to come and take the Egyptians as captives and the Ethiopians as exiles. He’ll take young and old alike and march them out of there naked and barefooted, exposed to mockery and jeers—the bared buttocks of Egypt on parade! Everyone who has put hope in Ethiopia and expected help from Egypt will be thrown into confusion. Everyone who lives along this coast will say, ‘Look at them! Naked and barefooted, shuffling off to exile! And we thought they were our best hope, that they’d rescue us from the king of Assyria. Now what’s going to happen to us? How are we going to get out of this?’” (The Message Bible)

What?? Isaiah walked naked for threee years!!??!! as a WARNING for what!!.

mmmm and naked means exatly what according to a Muslim like you? and surely a Sunni one?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

“Luckily” those two Egyptians physicians are not priests, otherwise:

1-3 "And now this indictment, you priests! If you refuse to obediently listen, and if you refuse to honor me, God-of-the-Angel-Armies, in worship, then I’ll put you under a curse. I’ll exchange all your blessings for curses. In fact, the curses are already at work because you’re not serious about honoring me. Yes, and the curse will extend to your children. I’m going to plaster your faces with rotting garbage, garbage thrown out from your feasts. That’s what you have to look forward to!
(Malachi 2 - The Message Bible)

I wonder what non-Christian Egyptian priests would do after knowing above qoute from Holy Bible.

would you care to share the wonderful things that the quran and traditions say about the Egyptians, except the ones who secretly believed in Moses?

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

Copts are indeed a persecuted people. Even in the USA they have at one point been attacked by a moslem hitman back from Egypt. However most Copts who I have met live in perfect peace in Australia and the Americas

 

[Contarini]

would you care to share the wonderful things that the quran and traditions say about the Egyptians, except the ones who secretly believed in Moses?

Exactly. The wickedness of Pharaoh and his followers is a major theme in the Qur’an–far more than in the Bible–and is embellished with accounts of Pharaoh’s brutality.

Edwin

 

[Melchior]

It saddens me to think what people from Egypt may think when they read in the Bible that God is praised because He destroyed the Pharaoh and the Egyptians.
We would not like to read in the Bible that God is praised because He thrown our ancestors into the sea,:bigyikes: so I worry that this can stop Egyptian people from ever converting to the Catholic faith.

What do you think about it?

Alma

God new what He was doing. Plus, the history of God’s own people in the Old Testament (Israel) being continually being judged by Him for breaking covenant with Him did not stop the Apostles from converting or make Jews leave their faith.

Beyond that, they were not even the same people. The ancient Egyptians were not Arabs. Modern Egyptians are the same ethicity as Saudi Arabians, most Iraqis, Kuwaitis, Palestinians, and all other Arab countries. Plus, those ancient Egyptians were pagans. Other than minimal cultural and obvious geographic ties, I don’t think they would any more offended (I would hope) than a Northerner would be offended at sharing the the name “American” with people from SC just because SC used to be a slave state.