Would Catholic Theology Allow for an Empty Hell?

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Oops, after reading my original post I realized that I left it hanging. I meant that Hell is at least populated with satan and his followers. We do not know the disposition of any human soul after death except Mary and the Saints being in Heaven.
I think that’s right.👍👍
I also believe that we have a grave duty to pray for others, all others, however unloveable, in the hopes that they may be saved, “though as by fire”.
I have been, on occasion, led to pray for the most unlikely people…I believe it is one of the most important things that everyone who names the Name of Christ can ever do…
 
Well, we know that Satan and some other fallen angels are in hell. So we know it’s not empty in the literal sense. It’s popularly thought that Judas Iscariot is also most probably in hell.
So, the question is, could Catholic theology support the idea that everyone (perhaps with a very long time in purgatory) winds up in heaven? I’ve heard it said, for example, that people may receive a last chance to repent at death, and that we can’t even be sure that Judas is in hell.

Thoughts?
Maybe there’s a final chance to repent at death. It’s a big maybe though. I wouldn’t advise anyone to live their life hoping for that. Even if there is a “final chance”, given the size of the human population there’s a pretty good chance that at least a few people have refused to repent even at death. Remember, people choose hell for themselves by their own rejection of God.

Personally, I think it’d be great if hell was only sparsely populated. That means lots of people chose God over themselves. Realistically, I’m willing to accept that hell may not be so sparsely populated based on what I see in the real world.
 
Well, we know that Satan and some other fallen angels are in hell. So we know it’s not empty in the literal sense. It’s popularly thought that Judas Iscariot is also most probably in hell.
Hell is most definately not empty. In addition to the demons it has at the very least one more human soul: JUDAS. The church does not explicitly teach this but scripture makes it absolutely clear.

John 17:12 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

There is no sadness in heaven over those in hell since God’s glory wipes away every tear. Further, the angels and the saints rejoice in God’s inscrutable Justice and His compassionate Mercy for those who accepted it. I think it would help people to think of the lost souls as those souls who themselves chose hell over loving and living with God for eternity out of their own free choice. They themselves elected to be eternally seperated due to their wickedness and pride being greater than their capacity to love. God does not overwhelm any soul with his power and awe to force anyone to love Him since that would make a mockery of love and make God into a relational bully. It is only because of freewill and the possibility for divine love that hell must exist so as to give us a real alternative choice. That choice should be very easy - to make except for the fact that sin corrupts so severely that one loses their ability to love anyone but one’s self - and even that is a corrupt love based on pride and illusions of self sufficiency.

The better question to ask here is: “how insane must a person be to choose hell over God’s love and how could God condemn an insane person?”

My thoughts on that are that God does not so much condemn anyone. He simply presents each sould before himself and permits each to go to their own place. A dead soul simply can not bear to suffer God’s radiant holiness since by contrast it makes his corrupt soul look so pathetic and unworthy that it becomes consumed with envy and bitter scorn and chooses to flee God and hide for eternity. God opens hell to these to give them a place. In a certain sense the fires of hell become a mercy since it gives the disgraced soul an eternal purpose and the sole remaining thing from God that it can relate to outside of itself - divine attention through God’s punishment. The alternative of sitting in isolated darkness and emptiness devoid of God or any company of any kind for all eternity would be a worse punishment.

BF
 
I could be wrong but my guess is there are people who actually will defy God to his face even after death and choose Hell.

And while Judas deserves Hell, so do many other people today but we just don’t know. I find it funny that today we think of a person who despairs and commits suicide as mentally ill and therefore who knows whether God will have mercy. Yet no such sympathy is considered for Judas. The man had just betrayed God, and he knew he had done an absolute terrible thing beyond anything bad. We know he was so sorry that he could not forvive himself and despaired. What Judas did and the guilt he experience very well might have driven him what we in modern times would consider insane. So who knows whether God showed mercy due to Judas’s insanity. Maybe he went to Hell or maybe he was given a Purgatory sentence so long that time will end before he is let out.

But my point remains that in all probability, there will still be some people that are so prideful that they will refuse to acknowledge God even after death. Though a fallen angel, Lucifer made that decision so my guess is some humans unfortunately do too.
 
Greetings in the LORD my brothers and sisters. Some thoughts on issues raised in this thread…

There was a local synod held in Constantinople in A.D. 543 where certain anathemas of the Emperor Justinian were agreed to. These were also sent to Pope Vigilius who confirmed them. Here’s the info:

“In these circumstances a report against Origenism was addressed to Justinian, by whom and on what occasion it is not known, for the two accounts that have come down to us are at variance (Cyrillus of Scythopolis, ‘Vita Sabae’; and Liberatus, ‘Breviarium’, xxiii). At all events, the emperor then wrote his ‘Liber adversus Origenem’, containing in addition to an exposé of the reasons for condemning it twenty-four censurable texts taken from the ‘De principiis’, and lastly ten propositions to be anathematized. Justinian ordered the patriarch Mennas to call together all the bishops present in Constantinople and make them subscribe to these anathemas. This was the local synod (synodos endemousa) of 543. A copy of the imperial edict had been addressed to the other patriarchs, including Pope Vigilius, and all gave their adhesion to it. In the case of Vigilius especially we have the testimony of Liberatus (Breviar., xxiii) and Cassiodorus (Institutiones, 1)” (“Origen and Origenism”).

And here’s one of those anathemas:

“Can. 9. If anyone says or holds that the punishment of the demons and of impious men is temporary, and that it will have an end at some time, that is to say, there will be a complete restoration of the demons or of impious men, let him be anathema” (211*Enchiridion Symbolorum *).

For more information on the preceding see “Apocatastasis”: “the doctrine which teaches that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls …] was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.”

Pope Paul II also condemned the proposition that “all Christians are to be saved” in his letter Cum Sicut in A.D. 1459 (717b*Enchiridion Symbolorum *).

As for particular individuals, we have statements like these to consider from the Ecumenical Councils:

“Are they unaware, or rather pretending to be unaware, that to be judged anathematized is just the same as to be separated from God? The heretic, even though he has not been condemned formally by any individual, in reality brings anathema on himself, having cut himself off from the way of truth by his heresy. What reply can such people make to the Apostle when he writes: ‘As for someone who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned’ (Titus 3:10-11)” ([A.D. 553]).

“This holy synod …] declares, defines and decrees that the said John Wyclif was a notorious and obstinate heretic who died in heresy, and it anathematises him and condemns his memory” ([A.D. 1414-1418]).

I think that the most straightforward interpretation of the words of King Jesus lead us to believe that most people will enter into destruction. For even when He compares the many with the few on their separate paths (cf. Matthew 7:13-14), the many enter the gate to destruction while the few merely find the gate to life. This leads us to think that even among the few who find the gate to life, there will be even fewer who will “persevere to the end” and thereupon enter (cf. Matthew 24:13). “For many are called, but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14).

Paul also tells us plainly that “not all obeyed the Gospel” (Romans 10:15), and further reveals to us that “those who do not know God and …] those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus …] will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might, when He comes on that day to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10). Therefore, we know that there are people in hell.

And when our Lord sent out His own laborers (cf. Luke 10:13-15), did He have any words of praise for repentant cities? No, but He pronounced woes upon every city that gained mention. “Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest” (Luke 10:2) so that by preaching Jesus Christ as Lord (cf. Romans 10:5-15), and by making “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings …] for all people,” (1 Timothy 2:1), we might by all means save some (cf. 1 Corinthians 9:22). For “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” (1 Peter 4:18)

All Glory to God,
Pete
 
Greetings in the LORD my brothers and sisters. Some thoughts on issues raised in this thread…

There was a local synod held in Constantinople in A.D. 543 where certain anathemas of the Emperor Justinian were agreed to. These were also sent to Pope Vigilius who confirmed them. Here’s the info:
“In these circumstances a report against Origenism was addressed to Justinian, by whom and on what occasion it is not known, for the two accounts that have come down to us are at variance (Cyrillus of Scythopolis, ‘Vita Sabae’; and Liberatus, ‘Breviarium’, xxiii). At all events, the emperor then wrote his ‘Liber adversus Origenem’, containing in addition to an exposé of the reasons for condemning it twenty-four censurable texts taken from the ‘De principiis’, and lastly ten propositions to be anathematized. Justinian ordered the patriarch Mennas to call together all the bishops present in Constantinople and make them subscribe to these anathemas. This was the local synod (synodos endemousa) of 543. A copy of the imperial edict had been addressed to the other patriarchs, including Pope Vigilius, and all gave their adhesion to it. In the case of Vigilius especially we have the testimony of Liberatus (Breviar., xxiii) and Cassiodorus (Institutiones, 1)” (“Origen and Origenism”).And here’s one of those anathemas:
“Can. 9. If anyone says or holds that the punishment of the demons and of impious men is temporary, and that it will have an end at some time, that is to say, there will be a complete restoration of the demons or of impious men, let him be anathema” (*Enchiridion Symbolorum *211).For more information on the preceding see “Apocatastasis”: “the doctrine which teaches that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls …] was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.”

Pope Paul II also condemned the proposition that “all Christians are to be saved” in his letter Cum Sicut in A.D. 1459 (*Enchiridion Symbolorum *717b).

As for particular individuals, we have statements like these to consider from the Ecumenical Councils:
“Are they unaware, or rather pretending to be unaware, that to be judged anathematized is just the same as to be separated from God? The heretic, even though he has not been condemned formally by any individual, in reality brings anathema on himself, having cut himself off from the way of truth by his heresy. What reply can such people make to the Apostle when he writes: ‘As for someone who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned’ (Titus 3:10-11)” ([A.D. 553]).

“This holy synod …] declares, defines and decrees that the said John Wyclif was a notorious and obstinate heretic who died in heresy, and it anathematises him and condemns his memory” ([A.D. 1414-1418]).I think that the most straightforward interpretation of the words of King Jesus lead us to believe that most people will enter into destruction. For even when He compares the many with the few on their separate paths (cf. Matthew 7:13-14), the many enter the gate to destruction while the few merely find the gate to life. This leads us to think that even among the few who find the gate to life, there will be even fewer who will “persevere to the end” and thereupon enter (cf. Matthew 24:13). “For many are called, but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14).

Paul also tells us plainly that “not all obeyed the Gospel” (Romans 10:15), and further reveals to us that “those who do not know God and …] those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus …] will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might, when He comes on that day to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10). Therefore, we know that there are people in hell.

And when our Lord sent out His own laborers (cf. Luke 10:13-15), did He have any words of praise for repentant cities? No, but He pronounced woes upon every city that gained mention. “Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest” (Luke 10:2) so that by preaching Jesus Christ as Lord (cf. Romans 10:5-15), and by making “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings …] for all people,” (1 Timothy 2:1), we might by all means save some (cf. 1 Corinthians 9:22). For “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” (1 Peter 4:18)

All Glory to God,
Pete
Excellent information. Thank you.
 
Excellent information. Thank you.
Glad I could share! May God bless you for the encouragement!

I also have to correct a typo I made:

“I think that the most straightforward interpretation of the words of King Jesus leads us to believe that most people will enter into destruction.”

:o
 
  1. A supposedly loving God would not need to punish poeple eternally. I don’t see how this point can be argued. If people go to hell and stay in Hell, there has to be something more than retributive justice involved.
  2. The Biblical, especially Old Testament, concept of justice is not like modern humanistic justice. It isn’t easily reconciled with everlasting in Hell, in fact. The Jews do not generally believe in an everlasting torment for the dead. This idea is common in Greek and Roman mythology, though. David Bentley Hart, a Western-Rite Orthodox theologian and historian, has argued the concept of an everlasting Hell is not integral, or unique, to Christian belief in his book Atheist Delusions.
  3. I have heard some opinions in Orthodoxy, that people could possibly repent after they die. I think some Anglicans tend to take this POV implicitly, especially modern ones that accept praying for the dead, but not necessarily Catholic beliefs on Purgatory…
 
As a former universalist, I still find the idea of no hell, or at least an empty hell, very appealing. However, I would no consider myself a quite orthodox Catholic… yet I have a very hard time with the concept of eternal suffering. For example, could we pray for people in hell? Wouldn’t we feel unhappy in heaven knowing that others (perhaps loved ones) were suffering eternally? If we have the ability to save souls from eternal damnation, aren’t we at terrible fault for spending time doing anything that does not at least indirectly support that goal? Etc.

However, I recognize that this is just a leaning of mine, and my faith in it is not as strong as my faith in the Church. So, the question is, could Catholic theology support the idea that everyone (perhaps with a very long time in purgatory) winds up in heaven? I’ve heard it said, for example, that people may receive a last chance to repent at death, and that we can’t even be sure that Judas is in hell.

Thoughts?
NO!

God would not have Created Hell if it was not going to be used. Indeed, it would seem that God KNEW [A Perfect all-knowing God] that many more go to Hell than attain heaven. This is sumed up well in:

**Mat. 7: 13 - 21 ** "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. “Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”
 
Good posts above. I think the Catholic theology on this is well-disposed of.

My next question then, is, how to we address the problems resulting from hell?

Specifically:
-How can we be content in heaven knowing that others are in hell?
-Can we pray for people in hell? If it would be futile, doesn’t that imply a limit to God’s reach?
-If we have the ability to save souls from eternal damnation, aren’t we at terrible fault for spending time doing anything that does not at least indirectly support that goal?
As has already been stated, the Catholic Church has never, and will never declare any persons in Hell. It is not their place. Not even Judas, who according to Scriptures it says he would wish he had never been born, even HE has not been declared in Hell.
Now, on to your specifics.
  1. I’m not sure, and I wonder that myself. What if I make it, and my children and my husband don’t? I can’t imagine how dreadful that might be. BUt, I trust in God’s love and mercy. He will find a way. And I trust that my prayers might be efficacious.
  2. Well, you don’t know who’s in hell, so go ahead and pray for whomever you want. 🙂 If you’re wondering ‘well, if so and so is in Hell then aren’t my prayers wasted?’ I would argue no. I would say that God will do SOMETHING great with those prayers, though I’m not sure what. I imagine it woudl be the same as praying for, say, someone to be cured only to find out that they died or fully recovered two weeks prior, that sort of thing. Your prayers are never wasted.
  3. I kinda think so. Which is why I’m KICKING MYSELF for not getting indulgences for all my family and friends who have passed. I hate to say it, but the windows during which I am in a state of grace are so very, very brief, it seems like I should be focusing very intently on getting that task done. I mean, honestly, what am I going to say ‘Sorry gramps, I couldn’t get you out of purgatory earlier because I had errands to run?’ Sounds cheap. Unfortunately, the errands DO win out all too often.
 
  1. The Biblical, especially Old Testament, concept of justice is not like modern humanistic justice. It isn’t easily reconciled with everlasting in Hell, in fact. The Jews do not generally believe in an everlasting torment for the dead.
+*God’s Holy Word does not support the above statement . . . below is more Sacred :bible1: Scripture clearly supporting the reality of hell . . . all of which passages come from the **Old Testament ** . . .*
1 Genesis 37:35
And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son into hell, mourning. And whilst he continued weeping,

2 Genesis 42:38
But he said: My son shall not go down with you: his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if any mischief befall him in the land to which you go, you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to hell.

3 Genesis 44:29
If you take this also, and any thing befall him in the way you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow unto hell.

4 Genesis 44:31
And he shall see that he is not with us, he will die, and thy servants shall bring down his gray hairs with sorrow unto hell.

5 Numbers 16:30
But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.

6 Numbers 16:33
And they went down alive into hell the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people.

7 Deuteronomy 32:22
A fire is kindled in my wrath, and shall burn even to the lowest hell: and shall devour the earth with her increase, and shall burn the foundations of the mountains.

8 1 Kings 2:6
The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to hell and bringeth back again.

9 2 Kings 22:6
The cords of hell compassed me: the snares of death prevented me.

10 3 Kings 2:6
Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoary head go down to hell in peace.

11 3 Kings 2:9
Do not thou hold him guiltless. But thou art a wise man, and knowest what to do with him, and thou shalt bring down his grey hairs with blood to hell.

12 Tobias 6:15
Now I am afraid, lest the same thing should happen to me also: and whereas I am the only child of my parents, I should bring down their old age with sorrow to hell.

13 Tobias 13:2
For thou scourgest, and thou savest: thou leadest down to hell, and bringest up again: and there is none that can escape thy hand.

14 Esther 13:7
That these wicked men going down to hell in one day, may restore to our empire the peace which they had disturbed.

15 Job 7:9
As a cloud is consumed, and passeth away: so he that shall go down to hell shall not come up.

16 Job 11:8
He is higher than heaven, and what wilt thou do? he is deeper than hell, and how wilt thou know?

17 Job 14:13
Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me?

18 Job 17:13
If I wait hell is my house, and I have made my bed in darkness.

19 Job 21:13
They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment they go down to hell.
**
20 Job 24:19**
Let him pass from the snow waters to excessive heat, and his sin even to hell.

21 Job 26:6
Hell is naked before him, and there is no covering for destruction.

22 Psalms 6:6
For there is no one in death, that is mindful of thee: and who shall confess to thee in hell?

23 Psalms 9:18
The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.

24 Psalms 15:10
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; nor wilt then give thy holy one to see corruption.

25 Psalms 17:6
The sorrows of hell encompassed me: and the snares of death prevented me.

26 Psalms 29:4
Thou hast brought forth, O Lord, my soul from hell: thou hast saved me from them that go down into the pit.

27 Psalms 30:18
Let me not be confounded, O Lord, for I have called upon thee. Let the wicked be ashamed, and be brought down to hell.

28 Psalms 48:15
They are laid in hell like sheep: death shall feed upon them. And the just shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their help shall decay in hell from their glory.​
. . . all for Jesus+​
 
+(continuation of previous post)
*29 Psalms 48:16
But God will redeem my soul from the hand of hell, when he shall receive me.

30 Psalms 54:16
Let death come upon them, and let them go down alive into hell. For there is wickedness in their dwellings: in the midst of them.

31 Psalms 85:13
For thy mercy is great towards me: and thou hast delivered my soul out of the lower hell.

32 Psalms 87:4
For my soul is filled with evils: and my life hath drawn nigh to hell.

33 Psalms 88:49
Who is the man that shall live, and not see death: that shall deliver his soul from the hand of hell?

34 Psalms 93:17
Unless the Lord had been my helper, my soul had almost dwelt in hell.

35 Psalms 113:25
The dead shall not praise thee, O Lord: nor any of them that go down to hell.

36 Psalms 114:3
The sorrows of death have encompassed me: and the perils of hell have found me. I met with trouble and sorrow:

37 Psalms 138:8
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.

38 Psalms 140:7
As when the thickness of the earth is broken up upon the ground: Our bones are scattered by the side of hell.

39 Proverbs 1:12
Let us swallow him up alive like hell, and whole as one that goeth down into the pit.

40 Proverbs 2:18
And hath forgotten the covenant of her God: for her house inclineth unto death, and her paths to hell.

41 Proverbs 5:5
Her feet go down into death, and her steps go in as far as hell.

42 Proverbs 7:27
Her house is the way to hell, reaching even to the inner chambers of death.

43 Proverbs 9:18
And he did not know that giants are there, and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

44 Proverbs 15:11
Hell and destruction are before the Lord: how much more the hearts of the children of men?

45 Proverbs 15:24
The path of life is above for the wise, that he may decline from the lowest hell.

46 Proverbs 23:14
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.

47 Proverbs 27:20
Hell and destruction are never filled: so the eyes of men are never satisfied.

48 Proverbs 30:16
Hell, and the mouth of the womb, and the earth which is not satisfied with water: and the fire never saith: It is enough.

49 Ecclesiastes 9:3
This is a very great evil among all things that are done under the sun, that the same things happen to all men: whereby also the hearts of the children of men are filled with evil, and with contempt while they live, and afterwards they shall be brought down to hell.

50 Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening.​
. . . all for Jesus+​
*
 
Good posts above. I think the Catholic theology on this is well-disposed of.

My next question then, is, how to we address the problems resulting from hell?

Specifically:
-How can we be content in heaven knowing that others are in hell?
-Can we pray for people in hell? If it would be futile, doesn’t that imply a limit to God’s reach?
-If we have the ability to save souls from eternal damnation, aren’t we at terrible fault for spending time doing anything that does not at least indirectly support that goal?
I used to struggle with the question of Hell myself, until I heard the proposition that once we are in the presence of God, our minds will be in direct communication with His mind and we will then understand that if He condemned a given person to Hell, it was an act of perfect justice, and we will therefore rejoice. In other words, if God finds Hell necessary for certain individuals, and we are told by Scripture that He does, then Hell must be necessary.

Also, to take an obvious example of someone who presumably is in Hell, let us examine the case of Adolf Hitler. He did what he did during his life, and according to a large number of witnesses who were present at the Führerbunker during his last hours, no action of his even resembled repentance. On the contrary, he blamed the German people for his predicament and expressed a wish that they would all perish, and then he put a gun to his head (itself a very grave sin). Could he have repented during the microsecond between pulling the trigger and having his brains scrambled by a bullet? I suppose there is an infinitesimal chance of that, but otherwise Adolf Hitler must be spending eternity in Satan’s domain. Also, on the same day Joseph Goebbels and wife poisoned their own five children because they did not wish their offspring to live without Nazism, and then killed themselves. Could they have escaped Hell? When I think of all the people who, while not as infamous, are equally rotten, it is hard to imagine an empty hell or to imagine how that would be just.

Also, (and this is pure speculation on my part) since God is all-powerful and all-good, when there is an individual who would repent within a reasonable length of time (perhaps a very long time in human terms), God will grant that individual more time on earth so that he or she will repent and be saved. Which is to say, in my opinion no one goes to Hell for want of a little more time to reconcile with God.

If anything above contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Church, I would be humbly grateful if I were corrected.
 
And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son into hell, mourning. And whilst he continued weeping,
The Hebrews did not believe in Hell the way medieval Catholicism developed the idea. They believed in Sheol, the “world of the dead”, similar to Hades in Greek mythology. This was not a place of punishment, just a seperation from life, in the middle-eastern worldview, the world of the shades/ghosts. In Greek and Roman thought, Hades had both a realm of punishment (Tartarus) and reward (Elysium). The early Hebrew understanding of this other world was mostly negative in tone, hence Hebrew religion was not otherwordly like Christianity later came to be.

Lastly, much of the Psalms is poetic language, these cannot be exegetically handled in the manner you have done. the Psalms don’t prove things like original sin or eternal hell, the language is hyperbolic and poetic.
 
  1. I kinda think so. Which is why I’m KICKING MYSELF for not getting indulgences for all my family and friends who have passed. I hate to say it, but the windows during which I am in a state of grace are so very, very brief, it seems like I should be focusing very intently on getting that task done. I mean, honestly, what am I going to say ‘Sorry gramps, I couldn’t get you out of purgatory earlier because I had errands to run?’ Sounds cheap. Unfortunately, the errands DO win out all too often.
You can still get indulgences for your loved ones. This is another advantage of having children who are infant baptised. These souls are absolutely pure. Bring your younger child who has received first communion to church to pray the rosary in front of the tabernacle for a deceased loved one. Then have them go to confession and communion and pray a short prayer for the intentions of the pope. These have a good chance of gaining a full plenary indulgence or at least a very high level partial. Also, if you know elderly and very religious persons who go to mass daily - ask them if they will pray for your loved ones. And finally, enroll your departed loved ones in perpetual masses offered all over the country for a nominal fee (to cover mass intentions cards and overhead of the religious order). One can attempt to gain a full plenary daily - simply read the scripture devoutly for 30 minutes and do the other normative things (confession within +/- 20 days of the pious act, communion as soon as possible - preferably that day, and prayers for the pope’s intentions). Also enroll yourself in the Dominican Rosary co-fraternity (no charge) - these pray daily for all their members and for deceased members.

But be advised that the original poster you replied to was implying that souls in hell could be released by indulgences - this is NOT true. No one in hell ever leaves again. Indulgences are only for those souls still in purgatory and for ourselves. If a soul can not benefit from the indulgenced act (in hell or promoted from purgatory to heaven already) then God applies it as you would see fit if you had His knowledge or in the best way possible.

BF
 
  1. A supposedly loving God would not need to punish poeple eternally. I don’t see how this point can be argued. If people go to hell and stay in Hell, there has to be something more than retributive justice involved.
I feel like I’m playing a broken record here.

If you die in a state of mortal sin, you die separated from God. Because you die separated from God, you cannot enter into the beatific vision, hence you enter hell. After you die there is no second chance, your eternal fate is immediate at death. That’s why we need to get it right now in our lives. Jesus makes it quite clear in Luke 16:19-31, especially in verse 26.
 
+**
The Holy :bible1: Bible**
Hebrews 13:8

Jesus Christ,

yesterday, and today;
and the same for ever.
+Neither . . . Sacred :bible1: Scripture . . . historically revealed by God down through the ages of centuries of time . . . portion by portion . . . nor . . .The Catechism of the Catholic Church . . . give any credence or support to any of the statements in your post Daedelus76 . . . this being a Catholic Forum . . . the below answer is essentially and necessarily from our Catholic perspective . . .

To begin with . . . to spiritually and theologically understand the Judeo/Christian God . . . and beliefs . . . first there needs to be a clear understanding that we embrace and hold sacred the truth that our **Holy Almighty God **is **One God **. . . never changing . . . the same yesterday . . . the same today and . . .He IS . . . not will be . . . being eternal and infinite in nature . . .the same in all tomorrows of finite time . . . He is eternal . . . with no beginning and no end . . . never changing . . . and as Christians we also know our **Holy God ** to be Triune in nature . . . and was thus in all yesterdays . . . Father, Son and Holy Spirit . . . "
"The Christian doctrine of the :signofcross: Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead. The doctrine states that God is the** Triune God**, existing as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases, but one being.

(Personhood in the Trinity
does not match the common Western understanding of “person” as used in the English language—it does not imply an “individual, self-actualized center of free will and conscious activity.”. To the ancients, personhood “was in some sense individual, but always in community as well.” Each person is understood as having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.) Since the beginning of the third century the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Trinitarianism, belief in the :signofcross: Trinity, is a mark of Roman Catholicism …The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church describes the Trinity as ** “the central** dogma of Christian theology”.[6]
- Wikipedia

+When original sin became a reality in the lives of Adam and Eve . . . which deadly inheritance we received as part of our spiritual “DNA” so-to-speak . . . the first stage of the consequences of sin was entered into by mankind . . . which many individuals through time have come to understand, experience and express in its worst states as “hell” here on earth . . . (using the theological definition of hell as utter severing from and utter separation from God . . . who is all . . . Light and Life . . . and Who is the* Source ** of life)* . . . whereby the stage of the process of decay into inevitable total destruction was begun . . . this stage is called out by** God** in Sacred :bible1: Scripture as death . . . this first stage of the deadly consequences of sin is very visible to human eyes in the world in varying stages . . . and in this stage of being . . . good and evil . . . the righteous and the unrightious . . . coexist together here on earth . . .

God gives us a clear true glimpse of the second and third stages of hell during the next stage in the life of souls upon departure from this earth in Old Testament times in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)* . . . (which was quoted earlier in this thread) . . . which passage clearly indicates that hell experienced beyond physical life here on earth in Old Testament times . . . was divided into two distinct and separate parts. Both Lazarus and the rich man in due season died and went to hell, however . . .
Lazarus was comforted in the bosom of Abraham
  • while the rich man was in a place of torment.
  • A great chasm is revealed by God in **His **Word to be separating these two sections of Hell . . .one section created in the plan of the salvation of mankind by our loving ❤️ God is called out as the comforting and blessed . . . **“bosom of Abraham” **. . . whereas the rich man was in another section of great torment . . . and this rich man was very aware that his sins had justly planted him where he was . . . (continued next post)
. . . all for Jesus+​
 
Having said that, the existence of Hell is a dogma of the Catholic Church. Universal restoration was repudiated by the Fifth Ecumenical Council.
Blessings,
Marduk
Only certain elements of Origen’s theology were repudiated. The pre-existence of souls and so forth. I have read debate wheather universal reconciliation itself is repudiated. Of course Catholics have their councils that apparrently do repudiate them, but not all Christians accept all councils as equally authoritative, and local councils often do seem to contradict on some points.

The saying “extra ecclessiam nulla salus” has been an issue in some councils, and wrangled so much by the Roman Catholics as to be almost meaningless (thank Goodness I don’t believe any Father is inerrant, I don’t have to hang anything on St. Cyprian). Thats why I’m not a Roman Catholic- I want a l definitive list of all infallible councils, doctrines, and dogmas. It’s not just about being responsible to God as I understand Him, but about being accountable to my fellow man. That means being open to being wrong. The RCC is so presuppositionalist that’s impossible.
 
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