Would Catholic Theology Allow for an Empty Hell?

[Pete_Holter]

“And say not unto me, ‘where is the rule of justice preserved entire, if the punishment has no end?’ Rather, when God does anything, obey His decisions and submit not what is said to human reasonings. But moreover, how can it be anything else than just for one who has experienced innumerable blessings from the beginning, and then committed deeds worthy of punishment, and neither by threat nor benefit improved at all, to suffer punishment? For if you enquire what is absolute justice; it was meet that we should have perished immediately from the beginning, according to the definition of strict justice. Rather not even then according to the rule of justice only; for the result would have had in it kindness too, if we had suffered this also. For when any one insults him that has done him no wrong, according to the rule of justice he suffers punishment: but when it is his benefactor, who, bound by no previous favor, bestowed innumerable kindnesses, who alone is the Author of his being, who is God, who breathed his soul into him, who gave ten thousand gifts of grace, whose will is to take him up into heaven;— when, I say, such an one, after so great blessings, is met by insult, daily insult, in the conduct of the other party; how can that other be thought worthy of pardon? Do you not see how He punished Adam for one single sin?

“ ‘Yes,’ you will say; ‘but He had given him Paradise and caused him to enjoy much favor.’ Nay, surely it is not all as one, for a man to sin in the enjoyment of security and ease, and in a state of great affliction. In fact, this is the dreadful circumstance that your sins are the sins of one not in any Paradise but amid the innumerable evils of this life; that you are not sobered even by affliction, as though one in prison should still practice his crime. However, unto you He has promised things yet greater than Paradise. But neither has He given them now, least He should unnerve you in the season of conflicts; nor has He been silent about them, lest He should quite cast you down with your labors. As for Adam, he committed but one sin and brought on himself certain death; whereas we commit ten thousand transgressions daily. Now if he by that one act brought on himself so great an evil and introduced death; what shall not we suffer who continually live in sins, and instead of Paradise, have the expectation of heaven?” (John Chrysostom, Homily 9 on First Corinthians)

 

[Jesus_123]

+*(continued from previous post) . . . *

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

. . . :coffeeread: . . .
ARTICLE 5
"HE DESCENDED INTO HELL ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN"
Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

632
The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the **crucified one **sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

**633 **
Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell"—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their **Savior **in Abraham’s bosom, whom **Christ the Lord **delivered when **he **descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

. . . :coffeeread: . . .
ARTICLE 12
“I BELIEVE IN LIFE EVERLASTING”
I. The Particular Judgment

**1021 **
Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The **New Testament **speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of **Christ **on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul—a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593
**
1022 **
Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven—through a purification594 or immediately,595—or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597
**
II. Heaven** …

1023
Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they “see** him **as he is,” face to face:598 …

**1024 **
This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity—this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed—is called “heaven.” Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

**1025 **
To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.” The elect live "in Christ,"600 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.601

For life is to be with** Christ**; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom.602

**1026 **
By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has “opened” heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. **He **makes partners in **his **heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.
​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Dear Lord+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Blessed Virgin Mary+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+​

 

[rwillenborg]

You can still get indulgences for your loved ones. This is another advantage of having children who are infant baptised. These souls are absolutely pure. Bring your younger child who has received first communion to church to pray the rosary in front of the tabernacle for a deceased loved one. Then have them go to confession and communion and pray a short prayer for the intentions of the pope. These have a good chance of gaining a full plenary indulgence or at least a very high level partial. Also, if you know elderly and very religious persons who go to mass daily - ask them if they will pray for your loved ones. And finally, enroll your departed loved ones in perpetual masses offered all over the country for a nominal fee (to cover mass intentions cards and overhead of the religious order). One can attempt to gain a full plenary daily - simply read the scripture devoutly for 30 minutes and do the other normative things (confession within +/- 20 days of the pious act, communion as soon as possible - preferably that day, and prayers for the pope’s intentions). Also enroll yourself in the Dominican Rosary co-fraternity (no charge) - these pray daily for all their members and for deceased members.

But be advised that the original poster you replied to was implying that souls in hell could be released by indulgences - this is NOT true. No one in hell ever leaves again. Indulgences are only for those souls still in purgatory and for ourselves. If a soul can not benefit from the indulgenced act (in hell or promoted from purgatory to heaven already) then God applies it as you would see fit if you had His knowledge or in the best way possible.

BF

Thank you, good to know!
And yes, you are absolutely correct, that indulgences apply only to those in purgatory, nto those in hell.

 

[PJM]

=camerong;6524555]I mean practically. If I devote my life to evangelizing, and am good at it, chances are–under conventional, lots-of-people-are-damned theology–that I will help “save” at least one person. If I avoid evangelizing completely, that person might well not be saved.

Perhaps this is an unsophisticated view of evangelization? I realize it also has a use for own soul, and it is following God’s commands which make the act good in and of itself, but we wouldn’t do it with much vigor if we knew it wouldn’t convince anyone, would we?

The most effective and therefore the best form of evangelazation is is knowing and then publically practicing our faith, fully and with Obedient Humility.

That is the manner most of us are called to share our faith.

Every person that crosses our life path, if even briefly is placed there either for our sactifiation or to assist the othr person with theres.

 

[markomalley]

As a former universalist, I still find the idea of no hell, or at least an empty hell, very appealing. However, I would no consider myself a quite orthodox Catholic… yet I have a very hard time with the concept of eternal suffering. For example, could we pray for people in hell? Wouldn’t we feel unhappy in heaven knowing that others (perhaps loved ones) were suffering eternally? If we have the ability to save souls from eternal damnation, aren’t we at terrible fault for spending time doing anything that does not at least indirectly support that goal? Etc.

However, I recognize that this is just a leaning of mine, and my faith in it is not as strong as my faith in the Church. So, the question is, could Catholic theology support the idea that everyone (perhaps with a very long time in purgatory) winds up in heaven? I’ve heard it said, for example, that people may receive a last chance to repent at death, and that we can’t even be sure that Judas is in hell.

Thoughts?

Such a concept would violate Sacred Scripture.

[bibledrb]Rev 20:7-15[/bibledrb]
​

We know for certain that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are going to be in the lake of fire. So that eliminates a possibility of a totally empty hell.

In addition, we know whoever is not in the book of life will join them (now, in some really stretchy interpretation, one could propose that everybody is written in the book of life, but that would be REALLY stretching it, wouldn’t you think? There are some who have known God but rejected Him…would all of them recant of their rejection if given another chance at the point of death? I sure wouldn’t want to bet my soul on it)

 

[PJM]

+God’s Holy Word does not support the above statement . . . below is more Sacred :bible1: Scripture clearly supporting the reality of hell . . . all of which passages come from the **Old Testament ** . . .

1 Genesis 37:35
And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son into hell, mourning. And whilst he continued weeping,

2 Genesis 42:38
But he said: My son shall not go down with you: his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if any mischief befall him in the land to which you go, you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to hell.

3 Genesis 44:29
If you take this also, and any thing befall him in the way you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow unto hell.

4 Genesis 44:31
And he shall see that he is not with us, he will die, and thy servants shall bring down his gray hairs with sorrow unto hell.

5 Numbers 16:30
But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.

6 Numbers 16:33
And they went down alive into hell the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people.

7 Deuteronomy 32:22
A fire is kindled in my wrath, and shall burn even to the lowest hell: and shall devour the earth with her increase, and shall burn the foundations of the mountains.

8 1 Kings 2:6
The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to hell and bringeth back again.

9 2 Kings 22:6
The cords of hell compassed me: the snares of death prevented me.

10 3 Kings 2:6
Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoary head go down to hell in peace.

11 3 Kings 2:9
Do not thou hold him guiltless. But thou art a wise man, and knowest what to do with him, and thou shalt bring down his grey hairs with blood to hell.

12 Tobias 6:15
Now I am afraid, lest the same thing should happen to me also: and whereas I am the only child of my parents, I should bring down their old age with sorrow to hell.

13 Tobias 13:2
For thou scourgest, and thou savest: thou leadest down to hell, and bringest up again: and there is none that can escape thy hand.

14 Esther 13:7
That these wicked men going down to hell in one day, may restore to our empire the peace which they had disturbed.

15 Job 7:9
As a cloud is consumed, and passeth away: so he that shall go down to hell shall not come up.

16 Job 11:8
He is higher than heaven, and what wilt thou do? he is deeper than hell, and how wilt thou know?

17 Job 14:13
Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me?

18 Job 17:13
If I wait hell is my house, and I have made my bed in darkness.

19 Job 21:13
They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment they go down to hell.
**
20 Job 24:19**
Let him pass from the snow waters to excessive heat, and his sin even to hell.

21 Job 26:6
Hell is naked before him, and there is no covering for destruction.

22 Psalms 6:6
For there is no one in death, that is mindful of thee: and who shall confess to thee in hell?

23 Psalms 9:18
The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.

24 Psalms 15:10
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; nor wilt then give thy holy one to see corruption.

25 Psalms 17:6
The sorrows of hell encompassed me: and the snares of death prevented me.

26 Psalms 29:4
Thou hast brought forth, O Lord, my soul from hell: thou hast saved me from them that go down into the pit.

27 Psalms 30:18
Let me not be confounded, O Lord, for I have called upon thee. Let the wicked be ashamed, and be brought down to hell.

28 Psalms 48:15
They are laid in hell like sheep: death shall feed upon them. And the just shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their help shall decay in hell from their glory.​

. . . all for Jesus+​

Very well done… THANKS!

The next time you may wish to consider adding some NT references as well?

 

[Jesus_123]

+You very welcome PJM . . . re New Testament Sacred :bible1: Scriptures . . . already done . . . they are posts #5 & #6 on the first page of this thread . . . markomalley . . . that Revelation Scripture is awesome! I’ve never used the new Bible feature available here at CAF . . . *it’s really impressive . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+​

 

[mardukm]

Only certain elements of Origen’s theology were repudiated. The pre-existence of souls and so forth. I have read debate wheather universal reconciliation itself is repudiated. Of course Catholics have their councils that apparrently do repudiate them, but not all Christians accept all councils as equally authoritative, and local councils often do seem to contradict on some points.

I think people sometimes confuse the conciliar 15 anathemas against Origen, with those set forth by Emperor Justinian, the latter being of no dogmatic authority. The majority of scholars validate that the 15 anathemas are the basis for the Fifth Ecumenical Council’s repudiation of Origen, and the very first of the 15 condemnations anathematizes belief in “the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and the monstrous restoration which follows from it.”

The saying “extra ecclessiam nulla salus” has been an issue in some councils, and wrangled so much by the Roman Catholics as to be almost meaningless (thank Goodness I don’t believe any Father is inerrant, I don’t have to hang anything on St. Cyprian). Thats why I’m not a Roman Catholic- I want a l definitive list of all infallible councils, doctrines, and dogmas.

There can be legitimate wrangling on many issues in the Catholic Church. The question is whether one’s opinions fall within the sphere of Catholic orthodoxy. Universal restoration definitely transgresses those bounds.

It’s not just about being responsible to God as I understand Him, but about being accountable to my fellow man. That means being open to being wrong.

Wouldn’t that be the classic formula for “being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine?”

The RCC is so presuppositionalist that’s impossible.

I don’t understand what you mean.

Blessings,
Marduk