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markeverett49
Guest
I don’t think the rocks are waiting for anything (and neither do you.) I do not think the hamsters are waiting for anything (and again, neither do you.) I think you are misreading figurative language.
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devoutchristian
Guest
When someone calls the Church’s teachings on the uniqueness of man “CAF staff’s opinion” it seems highly unlikely that they’ll listen to reason.
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Lochias
Guest
Disagree. God made hamsters and rocks, too.
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Lochias
Guest
When someone completely ignores the Church’s*** actual statement on the topic in question***, it seems highly unlikely that they have anything reasonable to say.
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devoutchristian
Guest
Really? You think rocks are going to Heaven?
The Church has always taught that only humans have spiritual souls.
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markeverett49
Guest
Yes, I know that, but they are not WAITING on anything. You misunderstand the passage you keep citing.
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Lochias
Guest
I don’t see why there couldn’t be rocks in Heaven.
Ever stopped, looked at a rock and realized what a marvel of creation it actually is?And yet, all of creation is waiting on something. Even if they don’t wind up in Heaven, sure sounds to me like they’re waiting somewhere.
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Lochias
Guest
18I consider that the sufferings of this present time are as nothing compared with the glory to be revealed for us.n 19For creation awaits with eager expectation the revelation of the children of God; 20for creation was made subject to futility, not of its own accord but because of the one who subjected it,o in hope 21that creation itself would be set free from slavery to corruption and share in the glorious freedom of the children of God.p 22We know that all creation is groaning in labor pains even until now;q 23and not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, we also groan within ourselves as we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies.r 24For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?s 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance.
I understand the point of the passage; however, the example the passage uses to make its point is, by itself, an example of ALL OF CREATION being freed from corruption, and groaning in labor pains.
Creation is not as finite and insignificant as you would apparently like it to be.
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jmcrae
Guest
Yes, but He did not create them for eternal life. They will not be partaking of the Eucharist in the Heavenly Liturgy.
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Lochias
Guest
Didn’t say that they would. What does that have to do with anything?Yes, but He did not create them for eternal life. They will not be partaking of the Eucharist in the Heavenly Liturgy.
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markeverett49
Guest
Please, man, just stop it now. The “glory to be revealed to us” does not refer to us humans plus rocks plus dogs. (Not only are the hamsters and rocks and dogs not waiting for this, they aren’t groaning either.)
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Lochias
Guest
The Church itself has not spoken for or against this. I find it amusing in the extreme that you’ve decided to correct the Church in its “error.”
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jmcrae
Guest
The Church forbids non-humans to be baptized. Trust me; they are not going to the Heaven of the Saints. There may well be rocks and hamsters in the afterlife, but the whole of the afterlife is not Heaven. Only the part where the Saints live is Heaven, and that will be a never-ending Eucharistic Banquet - a Mass.
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jmcrae
Guest
Heaven is a never-ending Eucharistic Banquet. That’s the whole point of the Mass here on earth, is that it is the foretaste of glory to come - Heaven touching down to earth.
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Lochias
Guest
Well, hey…rocks and hamsters in the afterlife. That’s something. Since logic, Scripture and our (limited) knowledge of God points to that scenario somehow, I choose to believe it is so.The Church forbids non-humans to be baptized. Trust me; they are not going to the Heaven of the Saints. There may well be rocks and hamsters in the afterlife, but the whole of the afterlife is not Heaven. Only the part where the Saints live is Heaven, and that will be a never-ending Eucharistic Banquet - a Mass.
If it is permitted, I choose to hope that we will be able to visit them.
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markeverett49
Guest
But the Church clearly HAS taught that humans are the lone earthly creatures made in the image and likeness of God, that we are the creatures God made for his own sake. We are the only earthly creatures with immortal souls.
God could put a dog in heaven. I submit the dog would not enjoy it for this reason: dogs lack immortal souls and God is an immaterial being: they could not encounter Him. Dogs may be fine examples of God’s handiwork but only humans, not dogs, can realize this!
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jmcrae
Guest
Of course we will - we will come down from Heaven to take care of them, just as we were created to do.
But they won 't be up in Heaven with us - no! They will only be on the New Earth; they will not be partaking with us in the Eucharistic Banquet.
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Lochias
Guest
We’re just going 'round in circles now. God loves all of His creation; He said so. If you choose to limit God’s love in such a linear and strange fashion, that’s your (and IMO, bleak) purview. It’s not technically against the teachings of the Church, so I can’t fault you there; but neither is my belief.
Good day.
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Lochias
Guest
This, I think I agree with. It is good to know that, when they die, we will see them again someday.
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jmcrae
Guest
It’s important to understand that your dog will not be in the afterlife - but there will be dogs who look and behave just like it - and the dog itself doesn’t know the difference - it was never self-aware during its life-time, and did not sense any “loss of self” when it died.
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