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joe370
Guest
As much as we know about God and how much God abhors sin, would God still become one with sinful flesh (Mary, if in fact you do not believe that she was free of sin) – for 9 months?
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Nicea325
Guest
If santification was applied to the OT Ark,why would God not want the same for His new ark?
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Mary was Conceived without Sin, here…
The “New American Version” may be a more recent translation, but in this incident, it fails to, in the most accurate manner, explain what God’s Angel actually was saying. This is of extreme importance in answering your query. So, we will quote the Douay-Rheims bible, which is the first English, translation of the bible, translated from St. Jerome’s, Latin Vulgate bible.
Why this bible: The Vulgate is the original bible, translated from “Greek and Aramaic (the language actually spoken by Jesus Himself) into Latin, around 350 AD. The Douay-Rheims bible, was published around the year 1600, and approved the Universal Church Council of Trent, as “authoritative and accurate.”
Luke 1: 26: “And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
The proof of this more accurate translation, is itself proof that while “Mary is conceived without sin,” is not specifically articulated in “the bible,” the truth that she was, hear me now, had to be, is in the bible.
In explaining the Catholic Faith, we use 1. Sacred Scripture, 2. Sacred Tradition, and 3. Common sense. Why?
John 21: 24-25 “24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. “
Clearly, God (the Holy Spirit) impregnated the “Virgin Mary”. She did give birth to a son, fathered by God, and thus has to be the “Mother of God.” Amen?The Blessed Virgin Mary: Ever Virgin and ever Sinless.
We read above in John Gospel that God never intended to have everything He wished us to know written down in the bible. I challenge you to show me where it says that it is. Also we learn in 2 Timothy 3:16 –17 “ All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.
In searching for biblical evidence of the truth we will go back to the book of Exodus, and learn what God demanded of Moses for the Ark of the Promised Covenant.” Ex. Chapter 25: 10-11… and a cubit and a half its height. 11 And you shall overlay it with pure gold, within and without shall you overlay it,
Again we ask, why God insisted on “pure gold?” The answer lies in who and what God is.
God has all attributes, and “all attributes to there most full and most perfect extent.” Amen? Thus God is everything that is “good, beautiful and perfect and lovely,” and can do nothing that does not reflect His perfect attributes, to do so would mean that He wasn’t God. Amen?
So in this passage we see Yahweh God, the Great “I Am,” telling Moses exactly what He expects for His Ark BECAUSE it will contain the Covenant, and thus the spiritual presence of God Himself. God cannot be in something that is not pure! It was true then, and it’s true now. It is also significant that the Ark contained the “Commandments” which of course deal with purity of life.
Our next question gets directly to the issue of Mary’s “Perpetual Virginity.” Why did this HAVE to be true? Answer: God, All Perfect God, COULD Not accept anything less from the “ark / tabernacle” that would contain for nine months, give flesh to, and give birth to His Son, the very Son of God. Amen? Mary had to be Virgin, and Mary had to be free of all sin, in order to accomplish what Her Perfect God Willed to be accomplished.
Another question, did Mary “merit” this extraordinary, once in the world honor? No and yes is the answer. No, as it was through the future Merits of the sacrifice of her Son, Jesus, that She gained the necessary merit. However, it was Mary’s free will that always conformed fully, to the Will of God, Her Creator that permitted God to choose her from all women throughout All of Creation for the Singular honor. It is God who made Mary a Sinless Virgin, and it was God, who kept Mary as a Sinless Virgin, because it suited His Divine Will, and His Perfect Nature. Amen?
Mary HAD to be perfect (both Virgin and sinless) because a less than perfect person COULD NOT give birth to “The Perfect God.” For the same reason, and as a singular honor, God Willed that Mary, the Mother of the “Son of God,” remain perfect, as is God’s Will and certainly within God’s powers, no doubt in complete affirmation of the Will of Jesus as a manifestation of the love for His Mother. Amen?
God Bless,
The “New American Version” may be a more recent translation, but in this incident, it fails to, in the most accurate manner, explain what God’s Angel actually was saying. This is of extreme importance in answering your query. So, we will quote the Douay-Rheims bible, which is the first English, translation of the bible, translated from St. Jerome’s, Latin Vulgate bible.
Why this bible: The Vulgate is the original bible, translated from “Greek and Aramaic (the language actually spoken by Jesus Himself) into Latin, around 350 AD. The Douay-Rheims bible, was published around the year 1600, and approved the Universal Church Council of Trent, as “authoritative and accurate.”
Luke 1: 26: “And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
The proof of this more accurate translation, is itself proof that while “Mary is conceived without sin,” is not specifically articulated in “the bible,” the truth that she was, hear me now, had to be, is in the bible.
In explaining the Catholic Faith, we use 1. Sacred Scripture, 2. Sacred Tradition, and 3. Common sense. Why?
John 21: 24-25 “24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. “
Clearly, God (the Holy Spirit) impregnated the “Virgin Mary”. She did give birth to a son, fathered by God, and thus has to be the “Mother of God.” Amen?The Blessed Virgin Mary: Ever Virgin and ever Sinless.
We read above in John Gospel that God never intended to have everything He wished us to know written down in the bible. I challenge you to show me where it says that it is. Also we learn in 2 Timothy 3:16 –17 “ All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.
In searching for biblical evidence of the truth we will go back to the book of Exodus, and learn what God demanded of Moses for the Ark of the Promised Covenant.” Ex. Chapter 25: 10-11… and a cubit and a half its height. 11 And you shall overlay it with pure gold, within and without shall you overlay it,
Again we ask, why God insisted on “pure gold?” The answer lies in who and what God is.
God has all attributes, and “all attributes to there most full and most perfect extent.” Amen? Thus God is everything that is “good, beautiful and perfect and lovely,” and can do nothing that does not reflect His perfect attributes, to do so would mean that He wasn’t God. Amen?
So in this passage we see Yahweh God, the Great “I Am,” telling Moses exactly what He expects for His Ark BECAUSE it will contain the Covenant, and thus the spiritual presence of God Himself. God cannot be in something that is not pure! It was true then, and it’s true now. It is also significant that the Ark contained the “Commandments” which of course deal with purity of life.
Our next question gets directly to the issue of Mary’s “Perpetual Virginity.” Why did this HAVE to be true? Answer: God, All Perfect God, COULD Not accept anything less from the “ark / tabernacle” that would contain for nine months, give flesh to, and give birth to His Son, the very Son of God. Amen? Mary had to be Virgin, and Mary had to be free of all sin, in order to accomplish what Her Perfect God Willed to be accomplished.
Another question, did Mary “merit” this extraordinary, once in the world honor? No and yes is the answer. No, as it was through the future Merits of the sacrifice of her Son, Jesus, that She gained the necessary merit. However, it was Mary’s free will that always conformed fully, to the Will of God, Her Creator that permitted God to choose her from all women throughout All of Creation for the Singular honor. It is God who made Mary a Sinless Virgin, and it was God, who kept Mary as a Sinless Virgin, because it suited His Divine Will, and His Perfect Nature. Amen?
Mary HAD to be perfect (both Virgin and sinless) because a less than perfect person COULD NOT give birth to “The Perfect God.” For the same reason, and as a singular honor, God Willed that Mary, the Mother of the “Son of God,” remain perfect, as is God’s Will and certainly within God’s powers, no doubt in complete affirmation of the Will of Jesus as a manifestation of the love for His Mother. Amen?
God Bless,
N
Nicea325
Guest
It is very easy to answer: God CAN do ANYTHING and if chose to allow one young girl not to have original sin,then God can do it…end of story!
This topic reminds of me of Christians who believe the Eucharist is merely symbolic. Wow! So God didn’t really mean what He said: This IS My body? He meant it as a symbol? Amazing how so many place limitations on what God can do or what God truly meant.
What is even more amazing is how those very people believe God created everything out of nothing, incarnated,walked on water,healed many people,etc and resurrected from the dead,but He cannot be present in the bread and wine?
P
Publisher
Guest
Just a question…I thought Catholic belief didn’t accept he is “present in” the bread and wine…but that the bread and wine BECOME his literal flesh and blood…not just “in” “around” “under” the bread and wine…but BECOME as the bread and wine is no longer “bread” and “wine”.
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Todd520
Guest
I’m sad to read this post, as it implies you feel God’s love is very limited, that he can only really love or touch the 100% pure among us. You’ve described a parent that shuns a child if their shirt gets dirty.
I always felt God loved us completely and was immune to the stain of our sin.
J
joe370
Guest
Hey Nicea…
What I found interesting was the fact that the angel Gabriel addressed Mary as a title, full of grace, as opposed to using it as an adjectival description. Gabriel says, Hail, full of grace not "Hail, Mary, full of grace. He addressed her by the title, “Full of Grace.” Inferior translations use the word “favor” instead of “grace,” such as, “Most favored one.” It is difficult to understand how this latter translation is used due to the fact that the word “kecharitomene” comes from the root word “charitoo” meaning “grace” not “favor” unless of course, one makes “grace” and “favor” synonymous. The word kecharitomene, I eventually learned, is the past perfect tense of the verb meaning “to give grace,” or “to fill with grace.” Because it is in the past perfect tense, it means that Mary was already filled with grace even before the annunciation, the implication being, like you said, that she was the immaculate Ark of the New Covenant.
"And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, (Kecharitomene, a perfect passive participle means"having been graced or have already been graced) - the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
The Ark of the Covenant, as all Christians know, is the place of God. In the Old Testament God took great pains to make sure that the Ark was immaculate. Exodus goes into meticulous detail, not once, but twice, in describing what must be done to make the Ark a perfect and pure place for God. If He went to so much trouble to make sure His place is pure, then it surely makes sense that the place of His physical being should also be pure and perfect, i.e., the womb of Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant.
Absolutely, and God did. :thumbsup:This was primarily a question for non believers, regarding Mary’s immaculate conception. This was yet another question that weighed heavy on my mind as a former non-Catholic, and I just wanted to get some feedback from other non-Catholics if possible. As a former non-Catholic I was told by all my non-Catholic friends and pastor that Mary was a sinner just like the rest of us, but that notion just didn’t sit well with me. I just couldn’t conceive of the idea that God would become one with sinful flesh. The idea that God would allow the blood of a sinful woman to supply nutrients, oxygen etc… to His blood for 9 months, didn’t seem very plausible to me. What did seem plausible, even necessary was the notion that God would only become one with a pure vessel, who was innocent, immaculate, free from all guilt, spotless, undefiled and holy in spirit as well as body, but that’s just my opinion and the teaching of the church founded by Jesus.
What I found interesting was the fact that the angel Gabriel addressed Mary as a title, full of grace, as opposed to using it as an adjectival description. Gabriel says, Hail, full of grace not "Hail, Mary, full of grace. He addressed her by the title, “Full of Grace.” Inferior translations use the word “favor” instead of “grace,” such as, “Most favored one.” It is difficult to understand how this latter translation is used due to the fact that the word “kecharitomene” comes from the root word “charitoo” meaning “grace” not “favor” unless of course, one makes “grace” and “favor” synonymous. The word kecharitomene, I eventually learned, is the past perfect tense of the verb meaning “to give grace,” or “to fill with grace.” Because it is in the past perfect tense, it means that Mary was already filled with grace even before the annunciation, the implication being, like you said, that she was the immaculate Ark of the New Covenant.
"And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, (Kecharitomene, a perfect passive participle means"having been graced or have already been graced) - the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
The Ark of the Covenant, as all Christians know, is the place of God. In the Old Testament God took great pains to make sure that the Ark was immaculate. Exodus goes into meticulous detail, not once, but twice, in describing what must be done to make the Ark a perfect and pure place for God. If He went to so much trouble to make sure His place is pure, then it surely makes sense that the place of His physical being should also be pure and perfect, i.e., the womb of Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant.
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Nicea325
Guest
The Real Presence after the bread and wine have been consecrated by a priest. Precisely why Christ did it in the presence of his 12,not the multitude.
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Barbkw
Guest
Hum.
“Do not touch Me for I have not yet ascended to My Father.”
John 20:17
“Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have.”
Luke 24:39
“Do not touch Me for I have not yet ascended to My Father.”
John 20:17
“Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have.”
Luke 24:39
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Mumbles140
Guest
I hate to bring this up, but it actually was not necessary for Mary to be immaculately conceived, but God saw it fitting and honorable to do so (see [forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=491878](this thread) for more information). Also, it is not such that God forced Mary to remain free from sin - she was still a human with free will. However, the Blessed Virgin chose not to sin, just as she chose to remain a virgin throughout her life, even though married to Joseph.
Not trying to nitpick, just trying to inform (as I was mistaken as well until the thread linked to above).
Not trying to nitpick, just trying to inform (as I was mistaken as well until the thread linked to above).
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Nicea325
Guest
Old Testament Ark
Contents:
10 Commandments (Word of God)
Golden pot of Manna (Bread from Heaven)
Aaron’s Rod (Shepherd) - (Symbol of Authority)
New Testament Ark (Mary)
Contents:
Word of God (Incarnated: Jesus)
Manna (Jesus the Bread of Life)
Shepherd’s Rod (Jesus: The shepherd w/authority)
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joe370
Guest
**Todd520 [/quote said:;7137596]I’m sad to read this post, as it implies you feel God’s love is very limited, that he can only really love or touch the 100% pure among us. You’ve described a parent that shuns a child if their shirt gets dirty.
I always felt God loved us completely and was immune to the stain of our sin.
I am sad that you have wrongly interpreted it that way.Please Todd, don’t put words in my mouth. God’s love is not limited and God doesn’t “only really love or touch the 100% pure among us.” He loves us all equally, but God would not become one with sinful flesh here on earth, just as those in heaven must be made immaculate before they can become one with God in His heavenly home. I could be wrong though. It’s just my opinion. Todd, your analogy of a parent that shuns a child if their shirt gets dirty, makes absolutely no sense to me and has nothing to do with the point of this thread. One thing I have learned here at CAF is the fact that a person has to be really careful how they state something for interpretations can be quite willy
nilly.
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NearDeath
Guest
She did not sin while she carried Jesus, but was perfect during those moments…
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Mumbles140
Guest
I do think it can be borderline dangerous to say that God ‘would not want to become one with sinful flesh’ because we cannot speak for God. However, the Catholic belief is that God chose Mary to be the Ark of the New Covenant, and though He denied her the stain of original sin, He did so out of His own compassion, not out of necessity. It was an honor to Mary for accepting His will so freely and bearing Christ in her womb. God clearly has not become one with ‘sinful flesh’ here, but that doesn’t mean He couldn’t (or wouldn’t). But, we can reasonably be assured He will not because the 2nd Coming of Christ shall not be anything like the first.I am sad that you have wrongly interpreted it that way.
S
Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Moot question, since The Blessed Mother was conceived without sin. She is Mary Immaculate.
S
stephe1987
Guest
God loves all of us.
As for sin, yes, God is going to choose someone without sin. Being Jesus’s mother was the highest honor; of course only the best would be chosen for that role: a sinless woman named Mary.
Does that mean God doesn’t love all the women who weren’t chosen to be Jesus’s mother? Of course not! It just means that a special role requires a special person.
And Jesus touched all sorts of sinners throughout His life, so I don’t see how God cannot touch anyone who isn’t 100% pure.
J
Janet1983
Guest
It still is an interesting notion.
You believe that Jesus cannot be born of a normal sinful woman, but He can enter you every Sunday, even though you are not free from any stain of sin.
J
Janet1983
Guest
As far as I remember (from biology) I was not truly one with my mother for all of her pregnancy.
Did you know that there are cases in which perfectly healthy babies are born whose mother is HIV positive? If there is no direct transfer of blood there is a chance the child is not affected by the mothers disease…
Just food for thought.
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Patrick_Joshua
Guest
If the Catholic Church, teaches she was with no sin, it is true.
The Church is infallible, 100% perfection.
The Church is infallible, 100% perfection.
J
joe370
Guest
Moot if one is a catholic, but not moot for non-Catholics. Actually it is moot for them in the sense that it is not worthy of consideration or discussion because it has been decided that Mary was not immaculately conceived.
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