...would God become one with sinful flesh (Mary) -- for 9 months?

[GaryTaylor]

BTW if you look at the Reformation era and Martin Luthers teaching and his words. He also believed in the Immaculate Conception also.

 

[runningdude]

Not a challenge in the slightest. Just trying to see things from all sides.

When you say “his” to whom are you referring?

Oops, meant to type “this”, that the post I was responding to I thought might have explained your original question more clearly. That was all!

 

[Janet1983]

BTW if you look at the Reformation era and Martin Luthers teaching and his words. He also believed in the Immaculate Conception also.

I might have a couple of things in common with Martin Luther (on the surface), like me being German born and raised or spending time among the religious (though I never was a nun myself) or leaving the Catholic Church, but that does not mean that I have to agree with him on everything, nor follow his teachings.

To me the IC is something that is not relevant for my salvation. Whether or not I choose to believe it or not is not going to get me to Heaven or keep me out of Heaven.

To quote a reformer on this is not going to change the mind of those who do not believe in the IC.

 

[Mumbles140]

To me the IC is something that is not relevant for my salvation. Whether or not I choose to believe it or not is not going to get me to Heaven or keep me out of Heaven.

I wouldn’t necessarily say that. It does serve as a reminder of God’s desire to cleanse us from all sin before being made ready for the Beatific Vision. It is also a miraculous act by God to reach down His hand and prevent the stain of original sin from reaching the Blessed Virgin.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I might have a couple of things in common with Martin Luther (on the surface), like me being German born and raised or spending time among the religious (though I never was a nun myself) or leaving the Catholic Church, but that does not mean that I have to agree with him on everything, nor follow his teachings.

To me the IC is something that is not relevant for my salvation. Whether or not I choose to believe it or not is not going to get me to Heaven or keep me out of Heaven.

To quote a reformer on this is not going to change the mind of those who do not believe in the IC.

I don’t disagree with you Janet.

I was lost, felt that I couldn’t find my way out of the darkeness. I was in it, but not of it with church.

The males in my family just didn’t do the Rosary. And I had more ego than all of them. Yet the females were much different, Scapulars, Rosarys, constant Mass especially on Holy days with with confession.

FInally I said, I’m gonna do this without reservation and unconditionally. If Gods willing so am I. I can’t get over the clarity its bought to me. I “feel” all of this now instead of think Christ. I feel like I’m getting this sublime message in my head now that; your on the right path, now stay on it.

Without a doubt its bought a different state of mind. I now believe its is a Blessing that all just arn’t required to seek nor receive. I believe God chose to have mercy on my sinner self and the Holy Spirit worked through Mary.

I have thought, well if I did the same thing yet with all Prayers to Our father, Apostles Creed etc, would the same thing have happened? Probably, probably so. Yet it happened the way it happened. You know what I’m saying? I suspect that most Catholic’s here who seem to feverishly uphold Marian thinking have had a similar awakening.

Not to mention that you really start reading on the Rosary and researching. The statements are said with so much conviction, as are the Promise’s of Mary. It just comes to the point where you must think, why wouldn’t I do this? I believe I’d have had to be a hard headed man not to.

Pope John Paul II had the hospital visit and the very idea he refused to remove the Brown Scapular even during surgery stuck with me. And the quote from the Saint who exclaimed. “You may go to hell, but you won’t go to hell wearing a Brown Scapular.” The conviction just goes on and on and on. Theres no end to it with Mary. So myself, yes indeed, I’m going with the Blessed Mother on this one. I see this as another path to Christ which just doesn’t fail.

Trust me my words do Mary no justice compared to how I feel. A path not required to be walked, but I have to walk it now. Wouldn’t feel right otherwise

God Bless,Gary

 

[SteveVH]

I like the “slave for Jesus Christ” tag on religion also.

I realize this is a bit off topic and I certainly mean nothing personal here, but the tag “slave for Jesus Christ” kind of distorts the familial relationship we are called to enter into with our brother Jesus Christ. We aren’t slaves, we are adopted brothers and sisters who are invited into the family of God.

 

[FairyGirl]

Mary isn’t sinful flesh, and no of course God wouldn’t do that.

 

[JonNC]

She did not sin while she carried Jesus, but was perfect during those moments…

This is an interesting post, and on a quick scan, I am surprised it went without response.
If I understand you correctly, to believe that Mary was sinless, filled with grace, does not necessarily mean one has to accept the CC defined IC. And that belief is clearly a reasonable response. That said, I tend to lean toward the IC idea.

Originally post be GaryTaylo****r

BTW if you look at the Reformation era and Martin Luthers teaching and his words. He also believed in the Immaculate Conception also.

This is true, Gary, but I’m not sure he would have necessarily defined it in the same way the CC does. Further, I believe he would have opposed it being defined dogmatically, as he and most Lutherans consider it adiaphoron.

Jon

 

[GaryTaylor]

I realize this is a bit off topic and I certainly mean nothing personal here, but the tag “slave for Jesus Christ” kind of distorts the familial relationship we are called to enter into with our brother Jesus Christ. We aren’t slaves, we are adopted brothers and sisters who are invited into the family of God.

Do you know what this comment was in referrence to? If so why didn’t you post your comment to the actual person who’s using this tag? Nothing personal either. But it would seem a jump to conclusions on someone other than you and I.

My own opinion on why this individual has this on as a Signature is very different than yours though.

 

[joe370]

Originally Posted by Janet1983

View Post
To me the IC is something that is not relevant for my salvation. Whether or not I choose to believe it or not is not going to get me to Heaven or keep me out of Heaven.

Janet, you are so right! It’s not relevant to our salvation. You embrace the doctrine theotokos, I think, and that teaching has nothing to do with salvation either. Isn’t okay to believe a particular teaching even if that teaching is not critical to our salvation?

 

[joe370]

JonNC;7141574]This is an interesting post, and on a quick scan, I am surprised it went without response.
If I understand you correctly, to believe that Mary was sinless, filled with grace, does not necessarily mean one has to accept the CC defined IC. And that belief is clearly a reasonable response. That said, I tend to lean toward the IC idea.

The idea that Mary was only sin free for those 9 months is a bit of a stretch for me. And, from a sola scriptura standpoint, there is no proof. But, I do respect Gary’s right to believe it.

 

[JonNC]

Janet, you are so right! It’s not relevant to our salvation. **You embrace the doctrine theotokos, I think, and that teaching has nothing to do with salvation either. **Isn’t okay to believe a particular teaching even if that teaching is not critical to our salvation?

Maybe not, Joe. I think Holy Theotokos - God bearer, or mother of God - speaks directly to the incarnation, and the fact that Christ was fully God, fully man, prior to His nativity. To deny Theotokos, ISTM, could lead to a denial of the nature of Christ.
The IC seems to lack such an important implication, and NearDeath offers a reasonable alternative to the IC, which apparantly, is the view of some eastern Churches in Apostolic Succession.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

The idea that Mary was only sin free for those 9 months is a bit of a stretch for me. And, from a sola scriptura standpoint, there is no proof. But, I do respect Gary’s right to believe it.

Well, like I said, I’m more inclined to something like the IC. And the lack of excplicitness of scripture regarding the specific point in time of her sinlessness (full of grace), is why I disagree more with the dogmatic declaration, even though I do generally agree with the belief.

Jon

 

[joe370]

flyonthewall

;7139734]Since you have requested (name removed by moderator)ut from non-Catholic sources, here is my 2 cents -
If I understand what is being said, then Jesus was not the only perfect person to walk the earth, which kind of throws a monkey wrench into things.

Mary was not quintessentially perfect like Jesus. There were, no doubt, many things she was not perfect at. However, I do believe that she was sinless.

I do not subscribe to original sin, so Mary was indeed born without original sin.

I certainly respect your choice not to believe my friend. Since the bible cannot settle our difference of opinion, regarding this matter, who can, in your opinion? Or, is this matter unresolvable?

Whether she was a “sinner” or not is not addressed in the scriptures.

I didn’t realize that the bible said: Mary is a sinner? I know that scripture say: all have sinned which would have to include the man Jesus from a logical standpoint.

I believe she was a righteous woman, selected for her righteousness, just as others in the scriptures were chosen for their righteousness to carry out tasks for the Lord.
I do not think being “full of grace” and being “highly favored” makes one sinless, but it does make them righteous. Afterall, when we repent, we are forgiven. We can no longer say we have never sinned, but that our sins are remembered no more.

If you believe that the bible is the Christians final authority via individual interpretation, and based on your interpretation, as the spirit of truth guides you, believe in your heart, mind and soul that Mary was not sinless, then who am I do question your beliefs. I was not given any authority to bind or loose, that’s for sure.

I agree that Mary was without sin in her conception of Jesus, because she was still a virgin.

I don’t get that statement. Because she was a virgin she must have been without sin???

I agree with a lot of things that Catholics believe on this, but not everything.

That seems fair. Again, in the end, who or what, via the perpetual guidance of the holy spirit, can definitively resolve differences when the bible cannot?

Who can bind and loose…? I know I can’t because Jesus was not speaking to me when He said:

*19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16

"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[d]bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18*

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut…

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well theres what everyone thinks, what all the different churchs believe as Truth, what the Bible states which is vague to say the least. And then at the end of all this is what is really the Truth.

Which the bottom line is? We won’t know till that day we actually are instructed by God.

Obviously a thousand links could be posted on every single Christian Religion. And of course I could cry the Catholic Church is the only one true church in history. And revert to the Saints, the Approved "pubic apparitions confirmed by Miracles etc.

But at last were talking about all good people here following our Lord Christ.

So we must have respect for all these beliefs till they become so far fetched they are actual heresy and disrespect in Gods eyes.

We have to respect her, and allow her to do her heavenly responsibility through the Holy Spirit and convert sinners in our Lords name. And we need respect her as God did, does and would.

All else all need to follow their church teaching.

But the debates of Mary serves what purpose? In the end it certainly doesn’t do the greater good in the war of evil and Gods will. It serves to push followers apart instead of closer together.

These differences, we need put aside, and concentrate on that which we ALL do believe in Jesus Christ and GOD. And change his hell hole we now call earth and home. Thats the real battle which I often wnder if it isn’t satan himself which creates this foolish riffs in Christology.

 

[joe370]

JonNC;7142044]Maybe not, Joe. I think Holy Theotokos - God bearer, or mother of God - speaks directly to the incarnation, and the fact that Christ was fully God, fully man, prior to His nativity. To deny Theotokos, ISTM, could lead to a denial of the nature of Christ.

I spoke hastily. You are so right Jon. That was a bad comparison on my part.

The IC seems to lack such an important implication, and NearDeath offers a reasonable alternative to the IC, which apparantly, is the view of some eastern Churches in Apostolic Succession.

Well, Kecharitomene is, according to everything I’ve read, a perfect passive participle, which means “having been” or “have already been” graced. - right, wrong maybe?

What a strange way to address Mary, don’t you think? Why not say: hello Mary, full of grace?

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

 

[joe370]

Well theres what everyone thinks, what all the differnt churchs believe as Truth, what the Bible states which is vague to say the least. And then at the end of all this is what is really the Truth.

Which the bottom line is? We won’t know till that day we actually are instucted by God.

Obviously a thousand links could be posted on every single Christian Religion. And of course I could cry the Catholic Church is the only one true church in history. And revert to the Saints, the Approved "pubic apparitions confirmed by Miracles etc.

But at last were talking about all good people here following our Lord Christ.

So we must have respect for all these beliefs till they become so far fetched they are actual heresy and disrespect in Gods eyes.

We have to respect her, and allow her to do her heavenly responsibility through the Holy Spirit and convert sinners in our Lords name. And we need respect her as God did, does and would.

All else all need to follow their church teaching.

But the debates of mary serves what purpose? In the end it certainly doesn’t do the greater good in the war of evil and Gods will. It serves to push followers apart instead of closer together.

These differences, we need put aside, and concentrate on that which we ALL do believe in Jesus Christ and GOD. And change his hell hole we now call earth and home. Thats the real battle which I often wnder if it isn’t satan himself which creates this foolish riffs in Christology.

Gary, I guess, in the end, it really comes down to just one thing:

Did Jesus leave the world with a teaching church forever guided by the holy spirit, into all truth as opposed to partial truth? If so, then where can one go to find that church? Clearly the bible has not worked at guiding Christians into all truth; not that I am downplaying the bible; far from it; ; just stating the obvious. .

 

[GaryTaylor]

I hear you Joe, and its obvious what I truly believe. I think that what is the same with all is the point of concentration though. At this point when we could put differnces aside and focus on that which is common bond. From there we can build and arrive at truth.

I suspect at the end of that is the Catholic Church. Learned behavior is a difficult obstacle to overcome though. The very essense of what one believes is often rooted to childhood.

I often wonder if theres not another way to serve the greater good than the path we continue to bump heads on.

Then we could move towards one church under God.

The other side is where the Orthodox and Catholic Church are headed. In itself that may be the key to help change fringe thinking.

 

[flyonthewall]

Mary was not quintessentially perfect like Jesus. There were, no doubt, many things she was not perfect at. However, I do believe that she was sinless. I’m not sure I understand when you say she was not perfect, but sinless. How can one be sinless without being perfect?

I certainly respect your choice not to believe my friend. Since the bible cannot settle our difference of opinion, regarding this matter, who can, in your opinion? Or, is this matter unresolvable?

Glad to be a part of the dialogue

 

[joe370]

hey flyonthewall…

I’m not sure I understand when you say she was not perfect, but sinless. How can one be sinless without being perfect?

In order for Mary to be perfect, she would have to be like God, having no limitations regarding anything. She would be all knowing and she of course, was not. A person can be sinless yet still imperfect when it come to a whole host of things. For example, I doubt, in her lifetime, that she could answer any questions regarding Calculus or quantum physics, or speak every language, as Jesus could. If she was perfect then she would have the perfect answer for any given question. You know what I mean?

I’m not sure there is anything to resolve. You have your belief and I have mine, you have your authority, I have mine. We each are happy with our belief, I don’t see a need to resolve anything.

Well, we know that Mary was either immaculately conceived or she was not. We can’t have it both ways - right? Did Jesus leave us with a way to know, with certainty, the truth vis-a-vis this teaching? Or, do we have to wait until we can ask Him personally?

Why is the church called the pillar and foundation of truth if truth regarding all that Jesus taught cannot be found in Jesus’ church? What did Jesus mean when He said that He would send the holy spirit to His apostles to be with them forever, and guide them into all truth? What’s the point if we cannot know the truth regarding things like: this is a symbol of my body vs this is my body, or the truth regarding Jesus’ mother?

Quote:
I didn’t realize that the bible said: Mary is a sinner? I know that scripture say: all have sinned which would have to include the man Jesus from a logical standpoint.
Jesus, of course, is the exception. As the author of our salvation, being sinless was required of Him.

Of course I agree with you, but the bible still says: all have sinned, but I do see your point.

Quote:
I don’t get that statement. Because she was a virgin she must have been without sin???
She was betrothed, not married.

Got it…

To have become pregnant while unmarried, by ordinary means, would have been sin.

Got it…

Since it was a miracle of God that caused her pregnancy, she remained a virgin, and she did not sin in that.

So, because the holy spirit impregnated Mary via a miracle, and Mary continued to remain a virgin, Mary remained sinless???