...would God become one with sinful flesh (Mary) -- for 9 months?

[joe370]

=GaryTaylor;7142234]I hear you Joe, and its obvious what I truly believe. I think that what is the same with all is the point of concentration though. At this point when we could put differnces aside and focus on that which is common bond. From there we can build and arrive at truth.

Sounds great, but sadly, that theory, when put to the test, doesn’t hold much water when sola scriptura via individual interpretation, is employed. You know what I mean?

I suspect at the end of that is the Catholic Church. Learned behavior is a difficult obstacle to overcome though. The very essense of what one believes is often rooted to childhood.

That is so true…!!!

I often wonder if theres not another way to serve the greater good than the path we continue to bump heads on.

Truth is what it is, and the question is: where do we go to find the fullness of truth? I know I don’t have it, without the church, founded by Jesus, to guide me into the fullness of truth, thanks to the ever presence of the holy spirit in Jesus’ church, until the end of time.

Then we could move towards one church under God.

Just as Jesus had in mind when He prayed that we (His church) - would be one just as He and His Father are one. Again, I don’t really see this happening in a world where the bible alone via individual interpretation, is the Christians one and only benchmark for determining truth.

The other side is where the Orthodox and Catholic Church are headed. In itself that may be the key to help change fringe thinking.

I couldn’t agree more Gary. Like JonNC said: that would be an unmistakable sign of the power of the holy spirit. It would change so much for the better.

Well, got to catch some zzzzzz’s, peace my friend…

 

[Mumbles140]

We could just take the words spoken by the Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Bernadette at the Grotto: “I am the Immaculate Conception” I think that about sums it up.

 

[flyonthewall]

hey flyonthewall…
In order for Mary to be perfect, she would have to be like God, having no limitations regarding anything. She would be all knowing and she of course, was not. A person can be sinless yet still imperfect when it come to a whole host of things. For example, I doubt, in her lifetime, that she could answer any questions regarding Calculus or quantum physics, or speak every language, as Jesus could. If she was perfect then she would have the perfect answer for any given question. You know what I mean?

I understand your meaning now.

Well, we know that Mary was either immaculately conceived or she was not. We can’t have it both ways - right? Did Jesus leave us with a way to know, with certainty, the truth vis-a-vis this teaching? Or, do we have to wait until we can ask Him personally?

Of course I beleive there is a way to know the truth of all thingsl It is through the Holy Ghost that the truth is made known to those who seek it.
I had to look up the Immaculate Conception, as I was not familiar with it. I had always thought it was Jesus’ conception it referred to, but as I understand it now it is Mary’s conception, to be free from the stain of original sin.
While I do not beleive in the “original sin”, I do believe all are subject to the effects of the fall(including Mary and Jesus), that is, we are all born mortal, and everything that comes with being mortal - hunger, thirst, subject to illness, and yes even desires and passions. We must learn to overcome these and subdue these in favor of spiritual things. Jesus did this perfectly.
However, when we are born, we are born sinless, We are not held accountable for any sin except our own. I do not believe children(infants & toddlers) can sin. They need to have some sort of understanding of their actions before they can sin.
Anyway, I cannot say that Mary never sinned in all her life, but I do believe that she was a righteous woman, and if she did sin, she took the proscribed actions to be forgiven.
I am not sure how that lines up with the Immaculate Conception, but that is my belief.

Why is the church called the pillar and foundation of truth if truth regarding all that Jesus taught cannot be found in Jesus’ church? What did Jesus mean when He said that He would send the holy spirit to His apostles to be with them forever, and guide them into all truth? What’s the point if we cannot know the truth regarding things like: this is a symbol of my body vs this is my body, or the truth regarding Jesus’ mother?

As I stated above, I believe the Holy Ghost is the revealer of truth.

Of course I agree with you, but the bible still says: all have sinned, but I do see your point.

Got it…

Got it…

So, because the holy spirit impregnated Mary via a miracle, and Mary continued to remain a virgin, Mary remained sinless???

Because Mary was a virgin, and became pregnant through a miracle from God, she did not commit a sin in becoming pregnant. That is what I mean.
As to whether or not she remained sinless, the scriptures are silent, but as I said before, I believe she remained righteous

 

[Janet1983]

I realize this is a bit off topic and I certainly mean nothing personal here, but the tag “slave for Jesus Christ” kind of distorts the familial relationship we are called to enter into with our brother Jesus Christ. We aren’t slaves, we are adopted brothers and sisters who are invited into the family of God.

It’s actually “slave of Christ” but I am sure that we’d better discuss this privately.

 

[Janet1983]

We could just take the words spoken by the Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Bernadette at the Grotto: “I am the Immaculate Conception” I think that about sums it up.

Well the question is whether or not everybody who is part of this particular discussion would accept that as an authority.
I would wager to say, that some (including myself) will not agree nor accept this as an authority.

 

[Mumbles140]

Well the question is whether or not everybody who is part of this particular discussion would accept that as an authority.
I would wager to say, that some (including myself) will not agree nor accept this as an authority.

But why not? The miracles at Lourdes have been well-documented, even by non-Catholics. They took place only 152 years ago, so the original source documents are still available. It’s just like the secular/anti-religious newspapers in Portugal describing ‘The Day the Sun Danced’ in Fatima. These events were meant to be a sign to all people, not only to Catholics.

When non-Catholic sources are detailing the miracles that occurred, it no longer becomes an issue of ‘belief’ or ‘authority’ but solely an issue of denying the truth for fear of what it leads to.

 

[Janet1983]

But why not? The miracles at Lourdes have been well-documented, even by non-Catholics. They took place only 152 years ago, so the original source documents are still available. It’s just like the secular/anti-religious newspapers in Portugal describing ‘The Day the Sun Danced’ in Fatima. These events were meant to be a sign to all people, not only to Catholics.

When non-Catholic sources are detailing the miracles that occurred, it no longer becomes an issue of ‘belief’ or ‘authority’ but solely an issue of denying the truth for fear of what it leads to.

That still doesn’t mean that everybody will accept these visions as an authority.

 

[Mumbles140]

That still doesn’t mean that everybody will accept these visions as an authority.

So if the Virgin Mary were to appear, and everyone accepted she was really there, and she said something that was Church dogma, you don’t think that would confirm the belief for everyone? Obviously those who believe in the faith passed down through the Catholic Church believe it (or so we hope). And those who are familiar with the concept of the Immaculate Conception but do not believe in it would most certainly believe it if they saw (and recognized) the Mother of Christ telling them as such.

What more-convincing authority is there than first-hand knowledge sent down from Heaven to confirm a dogmatic belief?

 

[joe370]

Hey flyonthewall…

Well, we know that Mary was either immaculately conceived or she was not. We can’t have it both ways - right? Did Jesus leave us with a way to know, with certainty, the truth vis-a-vis this teaching? Or, do we have to wait until we can ask Him personally?
Of course I beleive there is a way to know the truth of all thingsl It is through the Holy Ghost that the truth is made known to those who seek it.

Okay…Many seek the truth but many come away from scripture with differing truths, as you know. We know that the holy spirit is not guiding all of these folks into conflicting truths for there is only one truth regarding any one teaching. I am still confused as to how we (all Christians, who are guided by the HS) - can know, with certainty, the truth vis-a-vis this teaching or any other teaching for that matter? You and I, according to you, are being guided by the HS. Truth is supposedly being made known to both of us because we are seeking truth, yet we don’t agree with one another regarding truth, when it comes to Jesus’ mother. Since you believe that there is a way to know the truth of all things, then help me find the truth regarding Mary? If we continue to amicably disagree with one another, then the holy Ghost is apparently not doing His job by making known, the truth, to all those who seek the truth.

Perhaps the HS is forever guiding the church founded by Jesus - maybe?

 

[stormy99]

As much as we know about God and how much God abhors sin, would God still become one with sinful flesh (Mary, if in fact you do not believe that she was free of sin) – for 9 months?

**Mary was free from sin…immaculate concept…so no way God commited any sin…

stormy**

 

[JonNC]

=GaryTaylor;7142234]I hear you Joe, and its obvious what I truly believe. I think that what is the same with all is the point of concentration though. At this point when we could put differnces aside and focus on that which is common bond. From there we can build and arrive at truth.

Sounds great, but sadly, that theory, when put to the test, doesn’t hold much water when sola scriptura via individual interpretation, is employed. You know what I mean?

On this point, Joe, let me pick your brain (and leaving aside that you already know how I feel about personal interpretation).
Re: purgatory. The eastern Chirches in communion with Rome have a different idea regarding purgatory, and I think indulgences. It seems that Rome is content with these differeing views, as not Church dividing. Do you think it cannot be so with the IC? If not, why not?

Jon

 

[joe370]

Hey Stormy…

**Mary was free from sin…immaculate concept…so no way God commited any sin…

stormy**

I agree, of course. Many say that Mary, the mother of God, was not sinless. They believe that God would have had no problem becoming one with sinful flesh, and therefore the idea of Mary being a sinner and still becoming one with God, would not be a big deal. I agree that God could have certainly achieved His purpose through a sinful woman, but the 64000 dollar question is:

Would God be more inclined to choose to achieve His purpose though a sinless woman?

To God, sin is so repulsive that even thinking or looking at someone with sinful motives can be the ruination of a persons soul:

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

If that is the case, and it is, then surely God, logically speaking, would not choose a sinner to be His temporary home for 9 months.

Also, if there is in fact enmity between Mary and Satan, then Satan would have had zero affect on her, as Satan does with all sinners - right?

 

[joe370]

Hey Jon…

On this point, Joe, let me pick your brain (and leaving aside that you already know how I feel about personal interpretation).

Re: purgatory. The eastern Chirches in communion with Rome have a different idea regarding purgatory, and I think indulgences. It seems that Rome is content with these differeing views, as not Church dividing. Do you think it cannot be so with the IC? If not, why not?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Lets look at this another way. The Prophets just may have been a bit wiser than us. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.

So we do have Christ arrive through God all detailed in Luke. Though I suspect systematically even this will be denied at some point.

Anyway, Mary is highly revered in the Bible in Luke also. Right? Angel said, Hail Mary! Blessed art thou! Then,My Soul magnifys the Lords, You “Mary” found favor with God, Full of Grace?

Now John, Matthew, Luke, Mark, Peter, Paul, they were not going to confuse you with all spectacular verse’s about Mary. Then we truly would have a God Problem. So this “the New Testament” by the Apostles was intentially left this way.

Now Luke and John spent countless hours “with MARY” because they wanted to write about the HOLY FAMILY. Mary I assure you put all attention on her Son. “DO WHAT EVER HE TELLS YOU”. Then look at the Madonna Luke painted. Of “MARY” with the baby Jesus. And what does Mary do in the Painting…Points to Jesus, while Jesus points to Heaven. Do you think Luke, Mary and the way Jesus was painted is trying to tell you something? Maybe that Mary is very special and Christ it the way to heaven? Why didn’t he just paint Christ?

Now if you go back to the Old Testament and read Everything on the Ark of the Covenant. God cannot be in anything thats not Pure. It tells you in the Old Testament. So how could he possibly be in anything not Pure in the New Testamant? He cannot nor was he born into Mary born a normal birth. And the Apocryphia also confirms St Anne was sterile and of Marys Immaculate Conception. Born free of sin. But lets not believe the Apocryphia it wasn’t written by an Apostle, which we don’t believe anyway?

The Bible also specifically states in Genesis. God can read all you thoughts and hear everything you say. “Cain” its there trust me

So now do you really want to offend God with Mary, knowing how he felt about her? You either have to be so full of self your not grasping the gravity of that contempt. Your ignorant which I just find difficult to believe in this day of age of Christ known world wide. Your truly evil and probly don’t know it or you do, which is very possible.

Or your not reading deep enough in the Bible and elsewhere.

Even when I didn’t Pray to Mary I had enough sense to never, ever speak about her in any way but with respect.

Listen when you stand in front of God. What are you gonna say about this Mary contempt? I’m sorry? Do you think after speading this venom around on a world wide public forum, He will say what? OH no biggie, Great to have you? You know its one thing to talk about Mary, another to do so in a public forum.

If your not getting the point that Mary is very very special to God? Then the problem certainly lies with self. Christ and Mary were Gods plan. Only he wasn’t gonna have another Adam and Eve senerio. And he had to correct the Adam and Eve situation. Why else would he come? If theres another reason he came, please fill me in because I missed the point.

You can’t claim ignorance because we told you the deal.

Wow, I’m glad I’m not you. I’m scared for you I would love to hear that conversation. Though I would find no comfort in your sorrow.

Think its by chance we have over 100 years worth of Popes telling YOU. “The Rosary is the weapon which will defeat satan”. Throw that right out the window though, what do they know? Right?

May 13, 2010 Benedict states…May the seven years which separate us from the centenary of the apparitions hasten the fulfillment of the prophecy of the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to the glory of the Most Holy Trinity.

Notice he said Immaculate Heart of Mary…In case that doesn’t sink in, it means No Stain. Immaculate Conception. Further hes telling us, were in the last minutes of the war of Good and evil, It started with Fatima. Where God…yes GOD, played tennis with the Sun like it was a toy. And the Blessed Mother gave the day and time in advance.

BTW Mary not only born free of sin she was also resurrected by God. Notice theres no body, bones nothing of Mary not even a nothing, nothing? How many were resurrected?

Yet we have Peters tomb among many many others. I know they hid Mary right? Now if this wasn’t true, don’t you think you’d here…Here she is WE HAVE THE BODY. Yet no body?

Nothing to mess with here. It just goes on and on with Mary, this is one truly loved by God individual, I assure you of this. Truly Blessed.

But this is my opinion

And Christ said; Forgive them father, they do not know what they are doing.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Janet1983]

So if the Virgin Mary were to appear, and everyone accepted she was really there, and she said something that was Church dogma, you don’t think that would confirm the belief for everyone? Obviously those who believe in the faith passed down through the Catholic Church believe it (or so we hope). And those who are familiar with the concept of the Immaculate Conception but do not believe in it would most certainly believe it if they saw (and recognized) the Mother of Christ telling them as such.

What more-convincing authority is there than first-hand knowledge sent down from Heaven to confirm a dogmatic belief?

I am still very skeptical about Lourdes and I do not believe that Mary is the IC. Why would an apparition claim to be something that is not clearly stated in the Bible?

 

[rev_kevin]

**Mary was free from sin…immaculate concept…so no way God commited any sin…

stormy**

Why would it be a sin of God if Mary wasn’t free from sin? Would it make Jesus any less then what he is if she wasn’t free from sin?

 

[joe370]

Why would it be a sin of God if Mary wasn’t free from sin? Would it make Jesus any less then what he is if she wasn’t free from sin?

Stormy, I don’t get that either.

 

[joe370]

I am still very skeptical about Lourdes and I do not believe that Mary is the IC. Why would an apparition claim to be something that is not clearly stated in the Bible?

Do you mean, why would Mary describe herself as the IC since the bible does not call her that? Janet, you believe that Mary is rightfully identified as theotokos, I think, and that word is not found in the bible?

Have you researched those apparitions and based on your research, determined that they are not of God, or just simply fake? Do you believe that Bernadette, who grew up in a very poor family and lived in an abandoned jail-house - was making it up? Why would a poor little humble girl do that? Because of the crowds coming to see Bernadette in Lourdes, the local police threatened to put her in jail unless she would deny the apparitions. Bernadette, only fourteen years old, held firm to her convictions and, in spite of the fear she must have felt as a young girl, she continued to go the grotto. Why, if she was making the whole thing up, would she continue the charade, knowing full well that she, a little girl, could go to jail?

 

[GaryTaylor]

I am still very skeptical about Lourdes and I do not believe that Mary is the IC. Why would an apparition claim to be something that is not clearly stated in the Bible?

Janet you know what, I seriously seriously hear you on this. And you wouldn’t want to hear my personal opinion on some of these private revelations.

But Fatima and Zeitoun. Public Apparitions confrimed by Miracles from God. 70 thousand and a Quarter Million witnessed respectfully. From all walks of life. Atheist, Non believers, Muslims, etc. Impessive.

Fatima God plays with the Sun like its a Top. And Mary predicts the date and time way earlier. Its claimed to be the Most significant event of a 100-year period. Which we have 7-years to go. And the denial of Mary is also predicted. Which we see daily here. Lourdes has a relationship to Fatima thats why its so revered. And Bernadette is Incorruptable. 30 years after her death her body is exhumed. Her liver didn’t age a day. The Doctor claimed it alone a Miracle. Your liver is the first thing to go at death. Beside her not aging. Bernadette doesn’t believe its Mary and throws Holy Water at the ground of her feet. Mary smiles and turns in into a Fresh Water Spring that supposedly still heals to this day.

Zeitoun Eygpt Mary appeared Two Years straight on all major feast Saint days from 30minutes up to 8-Hours. 1/4 million witnessed this on the last appearence. Many healing of those condemed to die by Doctors with no chance of survival. A lady had Cancer of the Breast. She was found in the morning with a wrapped towel over her breasts on it written in blood, it said GOD. NO surgical marks. The removed tissue was in a bowl next to the bed. She was healed. Life long blind Muslim healed.

Now I heard the Doctor speak and the Blind man. The Dr was a Muslim. She said Blessed Mother and she couldn’t explain the healing, Miracle is exactly what she did say.

Now I know private visions are difficult to believe. But this? Pretty impressive in my opinion. As I am a skeptic with many things. I’m going with God on these two

But yes, I do realize for younger people that can’t see a couple years back, this is hard to believe. People here don’t believe we landed on the Moon either. They just can’t believe because they didn’t see it. Certainly doesn’t have much to do with all those who did though or the Newspapers which all also confirm the Blessed Mother. Footage of Zeitoun is unreal. Doves flying at night around the Blessed Mother. Doves don’t fly at night. Dosen’t happen. To me its amazing.

God Bless Gary

 

[Janet1983]

Its claimed to be the Most significant event of a 100-year period. Which we have 7-years to go.

Am I getting this right? There is a prophecy that could validate this? I am very intrigued by that.
The thing is that I don’t believe that God would send her to say something that is not biblical. If I cannot match it up with Scripture I remain skeptical.

Just an interesting detail: 2017 is the the 100th anniversary of Fatima and the 500th anniversary of the beginning of the Protestant Reformation.