...would God become one with sinful flesh (Mary) -- for 9 months?

[Steven_John]

Hey Steve,

You know there are the 7-sentences Christ makes on the Cross. The 6th is where he states “My father why do you forsake me”

Even being the Messiah and living as he lived. . And the same fate all of us must meet. And the idea that in the very end. For a flashing moment he didn’t know for sure, what was going to happen.

I think and thought often about that sentence.

I know God loved Mary though. Even Mose’s wasn’t that revered by God. Mose’s was given much Grace. Mary was Full of Grace. Amazing

Hi Br Gary, i was just trying to draw a parallel not to debate what is truth. Just it does not make sense to men that G-d would subject Himself or those that are His to sin. From logic in this world if G-d needed to bless us by subjecting of goodness to sin he could do it in or out of the womb. No doubt the narrations in scripture reveal Mary (bbhn) was in full submittence.

He was subjected to the trials of the flesh

Only some trials, Yeshua (pbwh) was not subjected to sin in and of the womb by the reading of the narrations.

For a flashing moment he didn’t know for sure, what was going to happen.

My G-d best i know Him is all knowing all seeing always, He is always sure. If He was not Yeshua (pbwh) would have never told me to pray to Him / It.

Like you i have prayed and pondered the sixth statement made by Yeshua (pbwh), Our Father knows best.
I pray you are blessed in your seeking, those who seek in openness to the truth will find. Those who seek in closed thought find what they seek.
The narrations teach what we seek is what we find, being open to the truth is the difficult part for me, having to put aside the seemingly beautiful given to me by the elders, to be open to the spirit.

Bless ya, pray well and stay well

 

[jairock1992]

I disagree with some of the comments that have been posted. Jesus is the only one who is sinless. Mary like every other man and woman,was born with original sin. She was just the vessel God chose to use to bring Jesus into this world. That is not to make her any less significant, but Mary is not in any way sinless. No where in the Bible does it say that she was born without sin. Yes she is the mother of Christ and it does say that she is blessed among women, but Jesus is the only one without sin because he is God.

 

[joe370]

Hey Steven…

Its a question that one could debate with many for a log time.

I guess along the same lines one could ask would G-d who abhors sin subject Him self or His to die by sin. By this stick we see the same spirit over logic.

It’s not really a question as to would he, because we know he did, but why did he…Boggles my mind…

Every human born with the stain of sin, can fall from grace and potentially end up in hell, forever separated from Jesus. If Mary was a sinner like the rest of us, then, just like the rest of us, Mary could have fallen from grace and ended up in hell, eternally separated from her Son, which is absurd, and no protestant would ever believe such an absurd thing, which supports the notion that Mary was fully graced and immaculately conceived and at no time in any danger of losing said grace, which could have, if she was not fully graced, put her soul in jeopardy.

Some will argue that God loves all of us just as much as He loves Mary, and they would be right, and therefore would not make an exception to the rule with Mary, when it comes to sin.

Those same people will then argue that God would not have allowed her sinful nature to prevent her from going to heaven, no matter what. Why should Mary, if she was a sinner, be the one exception to the rule in this case? God wouldn’t and that was why God created Mary fully graced, in my humble opinion.

 

[Reuben_J]

I disagree with some of the comments that have been posted. Jesus is the only one who is sinless. Mary like every other man and woman,was born with original sin. She was just the vessel God chose to use to bring Jesus into this world. That is not to make her any less significant, but Mary is not in any way sinless. No where in the Bible does it say that she was born without sin. Yes she is the mother of Christ and it does say that she is blessed among women, but Jesus is the only one without sin because he is God.

Hello. Welcome to the Forum.

What do you think about the verse when Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace”. What do you understand by ‘full of grace’?

What about Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

Who would you think the woman mentioned here?

God bless.

 

[joe370]

I disagree with some of the comments that have been posted. Jesus is the only one who is sinless. Mary like every other man and woman,was born with original sin. She was just the vessel God chose to use to bring Jesus into this world. That is not to make her any less significant, but Mary is not in any way sinless. No where in the Bible does it say that she was born without sin. Yes she is the mother of Christ and it does say that she is blessed among women, but Jesus is the only one without sin because he is God.

Is Mary the mother of God in your opinion?

I certainly respect your opinion. With that said, by whose authority do you make your claim that Mary was not sinless? It can’t be the bible because just as many people defer to the bible and believe the exact opposite, which means that either the bible is suspect or the interpreter is suspect. Thousands of people with polar opposite beliefs regarding this very subject are either right or wrong. Who has the authority to settle the matter once and for all these people, in your opinion?

Any claims I make must be aligned with the CC because I believe that the CC is the church founded by Jesus, forever guided by the Holy Spirit. Jairock, do you defer to the authority of any one church, or just the authority of your bible via your interpretation, as I once did, long ago?

 

[Steven_John]

Hey Steven…

It’s not really a question as to would he, because we know he did, but why did he…Boggles my mind…

 

[Janet1983]

What about Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

Who would you think the woman mentioned here?

Eve.
And I will put enmity between you (Satan) and the woman (Eve) and between your offspring (Jesus) and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.
Satan could only strike Jesus’ heel and cause Him to suffer. Jesus on the other hand crushes his head.

 

[Reuben_J]

Eve.
And I will put enmity between you (Satan) and the woman (Eve) and between your offspring (Jesus) and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.
Satan could only strike Jesus’ heel and cause Him to suffer. Jesus on the other hand crushes his head.

I know it is hard to use the ‘M’ word for those who cannot accept the Immaculate Conception. And I am not saying that those who do not believe nor accept it should do. But why go to Eve when you can have the obvious? You are right on the rest and that the offspring is Jesus, but why not say who his mother is?

My personal experience with Protestants (not with you though) is that they try to circumscribe to great length and avoid the obvious to understand the Bible instead of saying candidly as what is written there. This is especially puzzling since they think that all doctrines must be based and found in the Bible.

 

[Mumbles140]

I would like to say it again that doctrine like the Immaculate Conception is not based on apparition no how matter valid it is. Apparition only serves to confirm what is already believed by the Church.

I hope my earlier comments did not confuse anyone with my statement about Lourdes. I was merely stating that for those who accept the miracles and apparitions at Lourdes, then the Blessed Virgin Mary confirmed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, not that because of what she said, it was ‘determined’.

 

[Mumbles140]

Eve.
And I will put enmity between you (Satan) and the woman (Eve) and between your offspring (Jesus) and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.
Satan could only strike Jesus’ heel and cause Him to suffer. Jesus on the other hand crushes his head.

If you accept Jesus Christ as the New Covenant between God and Man, then you must certainly accept Mary as the ‘new Eve.’ Because of His nature as both human and divine, Jesus was a new man, Man Redeemed, and that makes Mary the new Eve. Yes, God is speaking about the struggle of man against sin, but it is also prophetic of Christ’s triumph, which would then translate into Mary as ‘the woman’ for the foreshadowing.

 

[Scaun]

Is sinfulness genetic?

 

[Janet1983]

I know it is hard to use the ‘M’ word for those who cannot accept the Immaculate Conception. And I am not saying that those who do not believe nor accept it should do. But why go to Eve when you can have the obvious?

Ain’t obvious to me.

If you accept Jesus Christ as the New Covenant between God and Man, then you must certainly accept Mary as the ‘new Eve.’ Because of His nature as both human and divine, Jesus was a new man, Man Redeemed, and that makes Mary the new Eve. Yes, God is speaking about the struggle of man against sin, but it is also prophetic of Christ’s triumph, which would then translate into Mary as ‘the woman’ for the foreshadowing.

No, I don’t have to “accept Mary as the ‘new Eve.’”

 

[Mumbles140]

No, I don’t have to “accept Mary as the ‘new Eve.’”

Simply saying ‘no’ doesn’t provide anything to an argument. If you want to lay out your points why, by lal means explain how a person can accept Jesus as the ‘new Adam’ (which I thought was obvious by referring to Him as the new Man) without also accepting His Mother as the new Eve, specifically in relation to the ‘enmity’ with the serpent.

 

[Janet1983]

Simply saying ‘no’ doesn’t provide anything to an argument. If you want to lay out your points why, by lal means explain how a person can accept Jesus as the ‘new Adam’ (which I thought was obvious by referring to Him as the new Man) without also accepting His Mother as the new Eve, specifically in relation to the ‘enmity’ with the serpent.

It is not making sense to me at all.
Eve’s seed are all those who were born. Since Jesus Christ was born in the flesh it is Him who is her seed and Him who crushes the head of the serpent.
I can easily accept Jesus as the new Adam, because it is in the Bible. I don’t have a problem with that.
The relationship between Adam and Eve however is not the same as the relationship between Jesus and Mary. Mary is a daughter of Eve, for certain, but that does not make her the new Eve.
Eve was taken out of one of Adam’s ribs and became his spouse.
Jesus is the Creator and he was born of the virgin Mary.

There is not logical connection between Eve and Mary besides Mary being human and therefore a daughter of Eve.

Jesus Christ is the one who died on the cross for our sins and thereby He crushed the head of the seed of the serpent. The serpent’s seed could only give Him anguish, not destruction.

 

[Mumbles140]

It is not making sense to me at all.
Eve’s seed are all those who were born. Since Jesus Christ was born in the flesh it is Him who is her seed and Him who crushes the head of the serpent.
I can easily accept Jesus as the new Adam, because it is in the Bible. I don’t have a problem with that.
The relationship between Adam and Eve however is not the same as the relationship between Jesus and Mary. Mary is a daughter of Eve, for certain, but that does not make her the new Eve.
Eve was taken out of one of Adam’s ribs and became his spouse.
Jesus is the Creator and he was born of the virgin Mary.

There is not logical connection between Eve and Mary besides Mary being human and therefore a daughter of Eve.

Jesus Christ is the one who died on the cross for our sins and thereby He crushed the head of the seed of the serpent. The serpent’s seed could only give Him anguish, not destruction.

But when you are speaking of the foreshadowing of Christ’s victory over death (and Satan) on the Cross, then each character has a role. You were starting with Mary and trying to compare certain aspects. But start with Jesus (just as it was Adam who came first). Put Christ as the offspring who strikes at the head. Who is Christ the offspring of? That’s right - His mother Mary, who was chosen by God to bear the Word Incarnate.

Just as Eve became the mother of all mankind, Mary became the mother of Man redeemed, and therefore, became mother of all those who follow Christ. That is why, while upon the Cross, Christ looked down upon his disciple and said “Behold your mother”.

 

[Todd520]

That’s a real stretch
Yes, per the Bible, Eve was the physical mother of all mankind
However, your Mary/Christian analogy is a spiritual one, not physical.

Scripture does not show Mary as the teacher of Christianity to Jesus, so she cannot be the spiritual mother of Christianity.

Just as Eve became the mother of all mankind, Mary became the mother of Man redeemed, and therefore, became mother of all those who follow Christ. That is why, while upon the Cross, Christ looked down upon his disciple and said “Behold your mother”.

 

[Janet1983]

But when you are speaking of the foreshadowing of Christ’s victory over death (and Satan) on the Cross, then each character has a role. You were starting with Mary and trying to compare certain aspects. But start with Jesus (just as it was Adam who came first). Put Christ as the offspring who strikes at the head. Who is Christ the offspring of? That’s right - His mother Mary, who was chosen by God to bear the Word Incarnate.

Just as Eve became the mother of all mankind, Mary became the mother of Man redeemed, and therefore, became mother of all those who follow Christ. That is why, while upon the Cross, Christ looked down upon his disciple and said “Behold your mother”.

I don’t believe that. There are 2 main characters in the event in Genesis: Satan and Eve.
The event foreshadows that their offspring would one day face off against each other and that Eve’s seed would win.
What ended up happening (jump to NT) is that Satan’s offspring did manage to wound Jesus and to kill Him. He however did not remain dead and that is when He crushed Satan’s head.

Jesus is called the last Adam. (1 Corinthians 15:45)
One man brought sin into the world and the other justification. (Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15)

Adam was the first man (Genesis 2). Adam sinned (Genesis 3). Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned. (Romans 5:12) The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:12-20)

 

[Mumbles140]

That’s a real stretch
Yes, per the Bible, Eve was the physical mother of all mankind
However, your Mary/Christian analogy is a spiritual one, not physical.

Scripture does not show Mary as the teacher of Christianity to Jesus, so she cannot be the spiritual mother of Christianity.

It is a stretch if you try and make it literally instead of a metaphor. Would you say that Mary was the new Ark of the Covenant?

 

[Mumbles140]

I don’t believe that. There are 2 main characters in the event in Genesis: Satan and Eve.
The event foreshadows that their offspring would one day face off against each other and that Eve’s seed would win.
What ended up happening (jump to NT) is that Satan’s offspring did manage to wound Jesus and to kill Him. He however did not remain dead and that is when He crushed Satan’s head.

You say that it is between the Serpent and Eve in the OT, and you mention the offspring. But then you mention only Jesus and Satan in the ‘NT Argument’. So if Jesus is the offspring, who bore Him? Who is His Mother?

All of your arguments about Jesus being the last Adam, that He came to bring justification, and that He redeemed are all correct. But just because Adam and Eve were made to be man and woman doesn’t mean it is the same way with Christ and Mary. Christ being the “new Adam” or the “last Adam” doesn’t mean Mary cannot be Eve.

My whole point is that the account of the offspring and the serpent are not only talking about the struggles of sin and temptation throughout mankind, but the One will come who will crush the head of the Serpent. Just as Eve is the mother of those offspring struggling with temptation and sin, Mary is the mother of the offspring who crushes the serpent.

Just as Jesus became the new Adam, a Man born in this world but remained free from sin, so too did Mary became the new Eve, created by God and to remain pure, unlike Eve who gave in to temptation.

 

[Janet1983]

My whole point is that the account of the offspring and the serpent are not only talking about the struggles of sin and temptation throughout mankind, but the One will come who will crush the head of the Serpent. Just as Eve is the mother of those offspring struggling with temptation and sin, Mary is the mother of the offspring who crushes the serpent.

Jesus is the One, yes… and because He was born in the flesh He is the offspring of Eve. I don’t see how Mary comes into this unless you force her into it.

Just as Jesus became the new Adam, a Man born in this world but remained free from sin, so too did Mary became the new Eve, created by God and to remain pure, unlike Eve who gave in to temptation.

I guess that is the crux of the matter. I do not believe that Mary was immaculate or that she was sinless. That is why calling her the new Eve is nonsensical to me.