Would greatly appreciate help defending

[tmrbwilson1998]

Hello - I have had an online conversation with some Baptists…I have been able to present MANY examples of scripture to defend “allegations” against our faith, so thank you to all of you on this board who have really educated me and are helping to lift me beyond a cradle cafeteria Catholic!

Here is what I have been asked now, and I would love to get some succinct answers in order to correctly answer these questions, if you would not mind!

Thanks in advance!

Here are the questions:*
"do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt if you died today that you would go to heaven?

Most Catholics lack the assurance of their salvation solely because they are depending on their goodness for acceptance into heaven. In so doing, they are making of none effect the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.

The second is this,

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. It is not in the sacraments, numberous prayers, charitable acts, we need to place our trust in the shed blood of Calvary and not in our works. Works come after salvation( we are saved unto good works)

The third is the Bible is the inspired Word of God

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

There are certain scripture that teaches us that we should not add or take away from scripture. If you cannot trust the Word of God as absolute truth. Then you have nothing in which to base you faith. "*

 

[Sabda]

Do they believe in osas? The first part makes it sound like they do.

Jesus was VERY clear that we will be judged by how we have treated others. What we do to the least of our brethern, we do to him.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. It is not in the sacraments, numberous prayers, charitable acts, we need to place our trust in the shed blood of Calvary and not in our works. Works come after salvation( we are saved unto good works)

Um, we are saved by God’s grace alone. This free gift from God requires a response on our part. Like all gifts do. That is faith working through love. In other words faith AND works, not faith alone.

Sacraments are not a work on our part. They are a gift of grace that we receive from God. If you haven’t already I would explain to them just what a sacrament is and what it isn’t. VERY important, it’s been my experience that some protestants seem to think sacraments are something you do, when really it’s something you receive.

BTW, have you been to Bible Christian Society? Very good site! I need to go back and redo my notes on there.

biblechristiansociety.com/download

Sorry I can’t help you more those are some of my weaker areas that I’m working on.

 

[NotWorthy]

Ask them to show you where Jesus says we are judged by anything other than our actions - i.e. doing the will of the Father, helping others, loving your neighbor, and forgiving others, etc.

No, when Jesus speaks of our judgement, he is quite clear that we all take an active part in our own salvation.

In regards to my salvation, I have no more assurance of my personal salvation than St. Paul did. That’s why I work on my own salvation “with fear and trembling”.

 

[whatevergirl]

Hello - I have had an online conversation with some Baptists…I have been able to present MANY examples of scripture to defend “allegations” against our faith, so thank you to all of you on this board who have really educated me and are helping to lift me beyond a cradle cafeteria Catholic!

Here is what I have been asked now, and I would love to get some succinct answers in order to correctly answer these questions, if you would not mind!

Thanks in advance!

Here are the questions:*
"do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt if you died today that you would go to heaven?

Most Catholics lack the assurance of their salvation solely because they are depending on their goodness for acceptance into heaven. In so doing, they are making of none effect the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.

The second is this,

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. It is not in the sacraments, numberous prayers, charitable acts, we need to place our trust in the shed blood of Calvary and not in our works. Works come after salvation( we are saved unto good works)

The third is the Bible is the inspired Word of God

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

There are certain scripture that teaches us that we should not add or take away from scripture. If you cannot trust the Word of God as absolute truth. Then you have nothing in which to base you faith. "*

Hello…interesting thread!
I don’t think that any of us can surmise who will go to Heaven. Can we have some sense of assurance, for we follow Christ and His teachings? Live our lives in Holy ways? Sure…there can be assurance that we will see God, but only God is the ultimate Judge. It might surprise who we may ‘see’ in Heaven…if someone who has not followed Christ His entire life, suddenly, on his deathbed pours out his deep love for the Lord, and seeks true repentance, only God knows his heart, and he, too, may achieve eternal salvation. I dislike debates where people feel they know who will be in Heaven, and who won’t…we cannot fathom the awesome mercy of our Lord. That is what is so beautiful about Him.

Hope that makes sense?

 

[ricko]

do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt if you died today that you would go to heaven?

That would be presumptuous on your part. Can you judge yourself? No, Christ will be the judge and every thought and deed you ever did will be on your head. You can only humbly hope.
Saved? No, but I am redeemed and like the Apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling not with a false assurance but with hope and all this I do as the Catholic Church has taught, unchanged for 2,000 years.

 

[ricko]

Most Catholics lack the assurance of their salvation solely because they are depending on their goodness for acceptance into heaven. In so doing, they are making of none effect the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.

False statement. Jesus died so that sins may be forgiven. He is our salvation, the way, the truth and the light. But the bible makes very clear that faith alone will not save you. Jesus himself said to keep the commandments. Revelations says everyone will be judged according to their deeds. In James it talks about faith without works is dead. Your friends should read all of the bible and stop picking out verses that suit their beliefs.

The third is the Bible is the inspired Word of God

True

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Again true. However they have only the bible which does not contain all truth. The Catholic Church has Tradition, so they are lacking.

There are certain scripture that teaches us that we should not add or take away from scripture. If you cannot trust the Word of God as absolute truth. Then you have nothing in which to base you faith. "

I believe in that statement. However that verse is found in Revelations and applies to the book of Revelations, not to the bible as it didn’t exist yet.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

ask them to explain Eph 2:10 and Matthew 25 judgement seat of christ.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

The third is the Bible is the inspired Word of God

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

There are certain scripture that teaches us that we should not add or take away from scripture. If you cannot trust the Word of God as absolute truth. Then you have nothing in which to base you faith. "*

God bless you for getting out and growing in your understanding of Church teaching!

Do the Baptists think that we don’t believe II Timothy 3:16,17??

Maybe they don’t realize this, but the Catechism of the Catholic Church says…

**105 **- God is the author of Sacred Scripture… written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

106 - God inspired the human authors of the sacred books … it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written

107 - The inspired books teach the truth… firmly, faithfully, and without error…

As for the phrase “Word of God” here’s a few things to consider and perhaps present to them…

1. In the beginning, God created the world just fine without having a written “word.” The Bible uses the phrase “God said…” for instance, “…let there be light” and etc.
2. According to the Bible, the Word of God is a Person. Namely, Jesus Christ. And Jesus is the “way the truth and the life.”
3. This one is good.

I Thessalonians 2:13
And for this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God’s message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

You can read the verses before that, Paul is talking about when he was there living among them and teaching them. In other words, words from his mouth.

See also I Corinthians 12:13

1. The “Don’t remove from or add to the words of this book” are in Deuteronomy and Revelation. Both can be shown to be distinctly referring to that precise work of literature.

What I’m getting at is…How can a person quote Deuteronomy 4:2 or 12:32 and say it refers to the whole Bible? They can’t honestly say that, because not even the whole OT was all written, much less the whole Bible put together as one book. Do the Baptists practice everything in Deuteronomy? Probably not!!

The same could be said for Revelation 22:18. What your Baptist contacts need to answer (if they believe that once your saved you’re always saved) is how a person can have their part or share in the tree of life taken away.

However, it is true that we should accept God’s counsel whole and as it is. And that would include the whole Bible. Which includes accepting the authority of the Church (I Timothy 2:15, Matthew 28:16-20).

Hope that helps!!

 

[crmcfl]

Ironic that a Protestant would talk about not adding to or taking from Scripture, given the disappearance of so many books under Luther’s watch

“There are certain scripture that teaches us that we should not add or take away from scripture. If you cannot trust the Word of God as absolute truth. Then you have nothing in which to base you faith.” Ask them to point out to you where the Bible says it’s the only authority. It doesn’t. Plus, they overlook the fact that the Bible is a Catholic book. The church existed before the Bible and it was through the church the Bible came into being.

A good thing to remember is we don’t have to always be on the defensive. We can ask some questions of our own and challenge their thinking a little bit as well.

 

[Montalban]

Hello - I have had an online conversation with some Baptists…I have been able to present MANY examples of scripture to defend “allegations” against our faith, so thank you to all of you on this board who have really educated me and are helping to lift me beyond a cradle cafeteria Catholic!

Here is what I have been asked now, and I would love to get some succinct answers in order to correctly answer these questions, if you would not mind!

Thanks in advance!

Here are the questions:
"do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt if you died today that you would go to heaven?

Most Catholics lack the assurance of their salvation solely because they are depending on their goodness for acceptance into heaven. In so doing, they are making of none effect the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.

Not a direct answer, but:
In the 1800s James Hogg satarised the Protestant notion in his “The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner”. In which he lampooned the notion that someone could be ‘saved’, because that person could then go out and commit a murder, knowing that he was assured by his act of faith of getting into heaven.
If you have the time you can read it at
pagebypagebooks.com/James_Hogg/The_Private_Memoirs_and_Confessions_of_A_Justified_Sinner/Private_Memoirs_And_Confessions_Of_A_Sinner_p1.html

The second is this,

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. It is not in the sacraments, numberous prayers, charitable acts, we need to place our trust in the shed blood of Calvary and not in our works. Works come after salvation( we are saved unto good works)

Faith without works is dead for the exact same reason as noted above. One can’t just say “I believe in Jesus Christ” without actually being a Christian in the sense of living a Christian life.
“For “the devils also believe and tremble,” as the Scripture tells us.”
Augustine - Homily X quoted at ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-07/npnf1-07-141.htm#P4618_2490251

The third is the Bible is the inspired Word of God

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

There are certain scripture that teaches us that we should not add or take away from scripture. If you cannot trust the Word of God as absolute truth. Then you have nothing in which to base you faith. "

This is a truth out of context. Indeed the Bible is inspired by God, but it is not the ONLY work inspired by God. It doesn’t say “ONLY scripture is given by inspiration of God”. In fact the Bible is quite clear that it doesn’t cover everything that was said and done by Jesus Christ
John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Specific lessons were not by scripture: Luke 10:16 “He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Jesus Himself never wrote anything down (excepting one time he wrote something in the dirt)

:yup:
Paul himself gives a quotation from Jesus that was handed down orally to him: “It is more blessed to give than to receive” (Acts 20:35). This saying is not recorded in the Gospels and must have been passed on to Paul. And therefore Paul himself uses tradition as a guide for teaching. Furthermore, Paul also quotes from other non-Biblical sources, such as this early hymn

Ephesians 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

Paul himself handed on faith viva voce.
“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. . . . Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed” (1 Cor. 15:3,11).

The apostle praised those who followed Tradition: “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2).

 

[Montalban]

Ironic that a Protestant would talk about not adding to or taking from Scripture, given the disappearance of so many books under Luther’s watch

Luther didn’t just do that. It’s known that he, in his ‘translation’ into German made certain verses change - to emphasise the way he already understood it.

He re-worked certain verses based on his own presumptions.

:tsktsk:

 

[Thal59]

>>>"Do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt if you died today that you would go to heaven?<<<

Ask them how, as Baptists, they can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they would go to heaven considering that they are in schism and teaching heretical beliefs contrary to what the apostles, church fathers, and the apostolic church had taught for 1,500 years before the Baptists came into existence.

Most Catholics lack the assurance of their salvation solely because they are depending on their goodness for acceptance into heaven. In so doing, they are making of none effect the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.<<<

But fallen man has no innate goodness. All “good” comes from the Father. If a Catholic indeed had “goodness” it is proof he has the Father and the Son. (You say you have faith without works, but I through my works will show you my faith.")
But they say…

>>>Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. It is not in the sacraments, numberous prayers, charitable acts, we need to place our trust in the shed blood of Calvary and not in our works. Works come after salvation( we are saved unto good works)<<<

In other words, pay me the days wages first, and then I’ll produce for you. This is typical selfish Protestant reasoning… grant me assurance of salvation first, and then I will make accomodations for good works. Of course, they will also tell you that it is the “spirit” that works the good through them, so in essence, they are not responsible personally for anything. They fall perfectly into the mold of the goats. “Master, when did we not do these things for you?” In other words, if we knew charity had such a personal effect on you, master, we would have done it because no doubt it would have increased our reward from you.

Tell them that Catholics are Christian because they love the Lord and obey the teachings, commandments, and traditions He has established through the apostles and the apostolic church. We do not serve the Lord only after assurances of salvation, a crown in heaven, a mansion, or what many Protestant denominations are keen to teach today: a position of power in Christs’ earthly government, etc…

*2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

There are certain scripture that teaches us that we should not add or take away from scripture. If you cannot trust the Word of God as absolute truth. Then you have nothing in which to base your faith. "<<<*

But the “word of God” became flesh. Catholics partake of the flesh and blood of Christ per His instructions, Baptists deny its efficacy and have only the written word which is subject to corruption. (The written word can be corrupted, the body of Christ cannot.) Since Baptist’s do not trust the Word of God… "Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you," then they have nothing on which to base their faith. Except, of course, a book produced by the Catholic church.

Therefore, when they spout off sola scriptura to you, ask them which bible are they referring to. When they say the King James, ask them what bible do they mean before King James was born? Eventually they have to get to the Catholic bible which was the only accepted bible for 1,100 years before the reformation.

So, they do not have sacraments, charity, numerous prayers, the apostolic church, the flesh and blood of Christ, or even a complete and original bible to follow.

Now ask then again, how they can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they would go to heaven.

Thal59

 

[John_Henry]

"do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt if you died today that you would go to heaven?

Yes. I know that I am currently in a state of grace. If God takes me now, I’m good. As for tomorrow, I must persevere, by his grace, in faith, and hope in him to save me.

Most Catholics lack the assurance of their salvation solely because they are depending on their goodness for acceptance into heaven. In so doing, they are making of none effect the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.

That’s BS. We get to heaven but by the blood of Jesus.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. It is not in the sacraments, numberous prayers, charitable acts, we need to place our trust in the shed blood of Calvary and not in our works. Works come after salvation( we are saved unto good works)

Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission, true. The sacrament of the Eucharist is his blood. And we don’t trust in numerous prayers and charitable acts. They do come after we have been (initially) justified.

The third is the Bible is the inspired Word of God

The bible is inspired, but it is not “the” word of God. It forms part of the Word of God, tradition being also part of the Word (2 Thess 2:15).

There are certain scripture that teaches us that we should not add or take away from scripture. If you cannot trust the Word of God as absolute truth. Then you have nothing in which to base you faith. "

Who’s taking away from scripture. Ask them about those 7 books the reformers threw out. And our faith is not in scripture, but in Jesus Christ.

 

[Liberian]

TMRBWilson,

The answer to the first question, “do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt if you died today that you would go to heaven?”, is “yes” if you are in a state of grace; that is the definition of a state of grace. The question of “assurance of salvation” is a different question because most of us are not going to die today, and knowing that we are in a state of grace today is not the same as knowing that we will be in a state of grace when we die. Romans 11:22 and the surrounding verses are helpful here.

The next statement about Catholics depending on their goodness is a very gross distortion of Catholic teaching on merit. That the Bible teaches merit is shown in Galatians 5:19-21 and Revelation 21:8, among many other places; these two passages give lists of the sorts of people who will NOT enter into the Kingdom of God.

The second statement about needing to trust in the shed blood of Calvary and not in our own works is straight Catholic doctrine. We agree wholeheartedly that it is the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for our redemption that “gets us right with God,” to use the Baptist terminology. Works come after salvation–that is, after we get right with God; this also is straight Catholic doctrine. Catholic doctrine also states that we will not get into Heaven without good works; the Bible tells us this in James 2, and if you press a Baptist hard enough he will agree that “you cannot live like the devil and be Christian.” Really there is little or no difference between Catholic doctrine and Baptist practice here.

The Catholic Church also believes and teaches that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and that it is without error when properly interpreted. (It is the “proper interpretation” that most Baptists have the great bugaboo with, but it is obvious when you get into the details of it. (For example, there is the scene from “Fiddler on the Roof” in which the young teacher is explaining that Genesis 31:6-7 means that you cannot trust an employer under any circumstances; this is an improper interpretation of the Bible and is not correct.)

I hope this helps.

• Liberian

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hello - I have had an online conversation with some Baptists…I have been able to present MANY examples of scripture to defend “allegations” against our faith, so thank you to all of you on this board who have really educated me and are helping to lift me beyond a cradle cafeteria Catholic!

Here is what I have been asked now, and I would love to get some succinct answers in order to correctly answer these questions, if you would not mind!

Thanks in advance!

Here are the questions:
*"do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt if you died today that you would go to heaven? *

Most Catholics lack the assurance of their salvation solely because they are depending on their goodness for acceptance into heaven. In so doing, they are making of none effect the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.

This does not matter. ​

Our salvation is from Christ, so assurance is secondary. We can be saved without assurance - but not without Christ. All the assurance in the world would be nothing, if we were not Christ’s.

That is not to disparage assurance - but it is crucial that Christ, & not His created gifts, should have the primacy in all things. The truth is, it is better to be damned, if this should give Him glory, than to be saved at the cost of lessening His glory. Heaven itself is Heaven only because He is there. In comparison with Him, nothing matters. As was said long ago, “the man for whom God Himself is not enough must be very hard to please” - or something of the kind. If He is ours - everything else is ours. Including assurance

*The second is this, *

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. It is not in the sacraments, numberous prayers, charitable acts, we need to place our trust in the shed blood of Calvary and not in our works. Works come after salvation( we are saved unto good works)

*The third is the Bible is the inspired Word of God *

*2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: *

There are certain scripture that teaches us that we should not add or take away from scripture. If you cannot trust the Word of God as absolute truth. Then you have nothing in which to base you faith. "

The Bible is nothing without God - the Pharisees loved the Scriptures, & rightly: but that did not lead them to Christ. The Bible is created, & like all created things it can blind us to God - it can become an idol.​

If one compares the life of Christ with the OT, a very strong case can be made that the Pharisees did right in rejecting Him: He

• worked on the Sabbath;
• implied that the Levitical priesthood was not perpetual;
• spoke against the Temple;
• denied the eternal validity of the Law;
• presumed to forgive sins
• insulted the rulers of His people
• consorted with Gentiles (who were uncircumcised and idolaters);
• did not fast
• healed a woman with a haemorrhage (which made her unclean)
• led Israel astray

• if compared with the words of the OT, He is an incredibly wicked man. He was even “hanged on a tree” - & “he who is hanged on a tree is accursed”: so says Deuteronomy 21.23. And that is the point The OT is simply not big enough, not evangelical enough, not paradoxical enough, to cope with Him.** If measured by the OT, Jesus is the original of Antichrist, the enemy of God. **So something is wrong with the measure. Is that any worse than the horrendous blasphemy of St. Paul, who says “He was made sin…” ? What can be more blasphemous than that glorious truth ? Not much

This is one of the ways in which “the letter kills” - according to the letter of the Law, He is the supreme sinner. The letter does not communicate grace, so it does not give life - God alone does that.

His critics had the letter - & that is how they regarded Him: as

• a sinner
• a liar
• a blasphemer
• as possessed
• as mad
• a law-breaker
• a glutton & drunkard
• a bastard
• a deceiver.
  As the far the letter went, they were absolutely right. But in fact, they were grievously wrong God is always better than His best promises, He is greater than they - so when God came in the flesh, those who longed for the Messiah, put Him to death. He was “too good to be true”, so they thought that He was a doer of evil. That is what happens, if we tie God down to our expectations of Him - we can end up crucifying Him, in order to do His Will. St. Paul caught this paradox in 1 Corinthians 1.

IOW - the Bible does not allow itself to be seated on His Throne: it is less than He, & cannot contain Him. It is a great & excellent gift, never to be despised: but it is not its Lord. Christ must save us even from the Bible - once He has given us His grace, we can approach it in safety