Would it be a sin for me to lobby against the Church's tax exempt status

[rodomonte]

This would be because of the Bishops lobbying for Comprehensive Immigration Reform, which I believe is a political issue, not a moral issue.

 

[beeliner]

This would be because of the Bishops lobbying for Comprehensive Immigration Reform, which I believe is a political issue, not a moral issue.

I’m not sure I understand. You want to lobby to make the churches pay taxes because you disagree with your bishops’ stand on immigration?

Firstly, they would disagree with you that it’s a political and not a moral issue. They would, I am quite sure, argue that it is both.

Secondly, I fail to follow your logic. But if that’s what you want to do, I don’t see how it would be a sin. It would, however, certainly make you unpopular with those who would have to pay the newly-imposed taxes.

 

[kristie_m]

I don’t know that it would be a sin, but the lobbying does not affect their tax status…only endorsing a particular candidate or party.

BTW…social justice is a moral issue, and we are called to live out our faith…out in the streets, and yes, in the political arena. Faith without works is useless. If we are not actively striving to make our world better, to defend those among us who need it most, we are not living out our Catholic faith.

 

[Lutheranteach]

I have a problem with any church having lobbyist. Since churches are not paying taxes, they should, in my mind, not be lobbying. In a way I see taxes as the entry fee for having (name removed by moderator)ut and access to the political system. I don’t mind any minister making opinions known at their church or asking their flocks to vote a certain way. I just do not like the thought of hiring professional lobbyists

 

[camerong]

Have you approached the issue with a truly open mind? I think most people in this situation are strongly political, and then they learn of the Church’s stance which conflicts with their political views, and then tries to figure out how to reconcile their views with their religion. I think this is, as Christ put it, placing new wine in old wineskins.

Tell yourself that the Bishops might be right, both that this is, in fact, a moral issue, and that their position on it is the best one, and then try to objectively evaluate their position. If my political party and my Church were at odds, my Church wins.

 

[Corki]

This would be because of the Bishops lobbying for Comprehensive Immigration Reform, which I believe is a political issue, not a moral issue.

As has been noted previously, Church’s are permitted to lobby for political issues, including immigration reform.

While noone here can judge your personal culpabilty, it would be sinful to lobby against the Church based on a falsehood (trying to convince people that lobbying on political issues is against the tax exempt status) or if you are doing so out of a sense of retribution for the Bishops taking a position you disagree with. Too many people could get hurt in the process.

On the other hand, there is a reasonable position that, I believe, a Catholic could take that the Church should relinguish her tax exampt status in order to speak more boldly on the moral and political issues of the day.

 

[fkjuliano]

Of course it is a sin. In depriving the Church of funds that rightfully belong to her because, in your opinion, advocating for illegal immigrants is strictly a political stance, you would be stealing from her. The truth is, whether you like it or not, that a more than reasonable case could be made that defending these least of our brothers, the ones who lack the legal right to work in the United States, is actually mandated by Christian teachings.

1. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
2. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
3. naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
4. Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
5. When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
6. When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
7. And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
8. Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
9. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
10. a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
11. Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
12. He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
13. And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The New American Bible, Matthew 25

 

[rodomonte]

I don’t know that it would be a sin, but the lobbying does not affect their tax status…only endorsing a particular candidate or party.

BTW…social justice is a moral issue, and we are called to live out our faith…out in the streets, and yes, in the political arena. Faith without works is useless. If we are not actively striving to make our world better, to defend those among us who need it most, we are not living out our Catholic faith.

Thanks for correcting me. I though it covered issues as well as candidates.

HOWEVER, those who need defending the most are the citizens of the US who are having their country stolen out from under them, a country awash in drugs smuggled across the border. I live in northern Arizona, and I will someday move to southern Arizona near the border to do my part to stop this illegal invasion. Read the Constitution, Article 4,
Section 4. It says the Federal government shall protect the states from invasion, and if upwards of 20 million isn’t an invasion, I don’t know what is.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

Post an article on this issue.

Then, render to Ceasar.

 

[rodomonte]

Have you approached the issue with a truly open mind? I think most people in this situation are strongly political, and then they learn of the Church’s stance which conflicts with their political views, and then tries to figure out how to reconcile their views with their religion. I think this is, as Christ put it, placing new wine in old wineskins.

Tell yourself that the Bishops might be right, both that this is, in fact, a moral issue, and that their position on it is the best one, and then try to objectively evaluate their position. If my political party and my Church were at odds, my Church wins.

The Church’s position doesn’t conflict with my political views, it conflicts with my moral views. We have a moral right to a soverign country with defined borders which allows controlled immigration of thousands every year. If CIR is passed, there will soon be more Mexicans in the US than in Mexico. We are not required to give our country away, but that is exactly what is happening. Render unto Ceasar.

After the sex abuse scandal, my faith in the wisdom of the Heirarchy has dropped significantly.

 

[JimG]

Even if churches were not tax exempt, it would not, of course, be churches paying taxes. It would be parishioners paying taxes.

Nearly all of my parish’s income goes to support its school–no tuition to parents. So if the church paid taxes, it would just be less money for the school, more money from the parents.

 

[markbrumbaugh]

Of course it is a sin. In depriving the Church of funds that rightfully belong to her because, in your opinion, advocating for illegal immigrants is strictly a political stance, you would be stealing from her. The truth is, whether you like it or not, that a more than reasonable case could be made that defending these least of our brothers, the ones who lack the legal right to work in the United States, is actually mandated by Christian teachings.

Bull patootie

 

[rodomonte]

Of course it is a sin. In depriving the Church of funds that rightfully belong to her because, in your opinion, advocating for illegal immigrants is strictly a political stance, you would be stealing from her. The truth is, whether you like it or not, that a more than reasonable case could be made that defending these least of our brothers, the ones who lack the legal right to work in the United States, is actually mandated by Christian teachings.

I have done those things voluntarily on an individual basis. We are not required to do it for 20 million all at once. That is not charity. That is pure power politics.

This is the most incidious invasion in the history of the world. It is a false flag operation. They mainly carry the American flag during their marches, but if CIR passes you will see the Mexican flags come out.

You are a good example of the psyops used by the open border advocates. Turn this invasion into a religious crusade. Make us feel sympathic or guilty about these poor downtrodden peasants. That’s passive-agressive behavior. I never heard of anyone starving in Mexico. The correct action by Mexicans is to stay there and build up their country and to fight the drug cartels.

It costs $1200 to pay a coyote. How do they save that if there are no jobs? That is more than I have.

It boggles my mind that we have American politicians lobbying for the cause of illegal aliens. They should register as agents of a foreign government, Mexico. They are, in fact, traitors.

 

[Rolltide]

Have you considered joining the Know-Nothing Party?

 

[rodomonte]

Have you considered joining the Know-Nothing Party?

I am overwhelmed by the logic of your counter-arguments, of which there are none in your simple-minded reply.

 

[beeliner]

I live in northern Arizona, and I will someday move to southern Arizona near the border to do my part to stop this illegal invasion…

rod, the best way to ‘do your part’ is to contact your representatives in congress and give them your opinion.

Better still, run for congress yourself with the statements you’ve made on this thread as your platform and see how many votes you get. I have no doubt that you’ll garner some support.

If you are implying that you’re considering joining some bunch of nutcase vigilantes, you’re likely to wind up shot or in jail.

Personally, I’m much more concerned about the middle-Eastern terrorists who want me dead and my grandaughter to live under Shariya law where she would be treated worse than an animal than I am about some poor Mexican dude wanting a better life for himself and his family.

 

[rodomonte]

rod, the best way to ‘do your part’ is to contact your representatives in congress and give them your opinion.

Better still, run for congress yourself with the statements you’ve made on this thread as your platform and see how many votes you get. I have no doubt that you’ll garner some support.

If you are implying that you’re considering joining some bunch of nutcase vigilantes, you’re likely to wind up shot or in jail.

Personally, I’m much more concerned about the middle-Eastern terrorists who want me dead and my grandaughter to live under Shariya law where she would be treated worse than an animal than I am about some poor Mexican dude wanting a better life for himself and his family.

This has gone way beyond the corrupt political process. Politicians take an oath to enforce the laws and uphold the constitution and they have not done it. Politics trumps everything, including the law and religion. If the government won’t enforce the country’s laws, that government is illegitimate and the citizens are going to have to. I never thought it would come to this.

Politicians ignored the invasion for decades, until now when the number of illegals in this country is so large that they represent a potent political force for the Democratic Party. To reward them with citizenship would be an unimaginable outrage. If you think Obamacare was contentious, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

That poor Mexican dude’s better life comes at my expense. I didn’t vote for it. It was forced upon me. One has a right to life, not a right to a better life.

Vigilantes are not the “nutcases” here. The nutcases are those in Congress who would vote to enfranchise 20 million illegal invaders while we are in a recession, and tilt the political landscape to one-party rule by the Democrats for generations to come.

Actually, I don’t accept any cost-benefit analysis of illegal immigration, because the cost is infinite. The cost is losing part of our country to domination by Mexico, and that cost is essentially inestimable.

Just saw a Mexican dude in Walmart last week wearing an “Aztlan” shirt. That’s what this is really about. You will never hear “Aztlan” mentioned by the MSM. Just google it if you don’t know what it means.

 

[Rolltide]

Politicians hardly ignored the problem. We invited the Mexican workers here in the first place. Try looking up “The Bracero Program”. This was one of the most successful and important home front programs during World War II, and was used to replace farmers and other workers who had gone off to war. The only problem was that it was TOO successful, and we couldn’t shut it off when we were finished.

 

[Prof_K]

This would be because of the Bishops lobbying for Comprehensive Immigration Reform, which I believe is a political issue, not a moral issue.

Every major political issue has moral implications. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be major political issues. Thus if you don’t allow religious leaders to speak to political issues, you further the goal of making religion irrelevant. Whether or not I like the Church’s political positions, or any church’s position, we need to defend their rights to take political stands on major issues.

What Church’s should not do is endorse specific political candidates. Thus a pastor or priest may encourage his flock to vote for pro-life candidates. He crosses the line if he encourages his flock, from the pulpit, to vote for candidate Y vs. candidate X.

 

[camerong]

The United States, like every other creation of man, will perish. We should not be too concerned about it, lest we wish to perish with it. Our primary missions are to love God and love our neighbors, many of whom happen to be Mexican. As much as I love English, I would give up speaking it forever if it kept a single Spanish-speaking baby from starving to death. Any Catholic who would not needs to read the gospel again.

Further, you have foreclosed the argument that keeping Mexicans out is a form of loving the people here in the US, because you said that cost-benefit analysis is not applicable. In other words, even if it doesn’t materially hurt us, it is not worth helping the Mexicans because we compromise some national identity as white, English speaking folks.