Would it be better if "troublemakers" left or stayed in the Church?

[Cat]

Would you prefer that “troublemakers” just leave your parish so that others (including you) can experience Mass, the Catholic faith, and parish life the way it’s supposed to be?

Or would you prefer that “troublemakers” remain in your parish, even with all of their faults and sins, so that they, along with you, can continue to hear true teaching, receive the Sacraments, and remain on the journey to sainthood?

This is a question that I have had for a long time.

Often on CAF, in fact, almost everyday, I read posts that imply that the poster wishes that certain people would just leave their parish and even leave the Catholic Church.

Sometimes this is in regards to serious disagreements with Church teaching; e.g., those who openly advocate abortion and work to help others procure abortions. I can certainly understand why Catholics long to see these people given an ultimatum to stop their sin or stop calling themselves “Catholics.”

Sometimes, though, it seems that posters on CAF (and sometimes, Catholics that I know in real life) would like their fellow parishioners involved in less-serious infractions to leave their parish and even leave the Church; e.g, those who violate the Vatican dress code, or those who “chat” in the nave before Mass.

I think, at least I hope, that most of these posters would prefer that these “troublemakers” simply stop the questionable behavior. In a perfect world, that would happen and it would be lovely!

And then, of course, there’s the question of what exactly constitutes a “troublemaker.” For some people, it seems that a woman who wears a sleeveless blouse is a “troublemaker.”

All too often, it seems to me that some people seem to be saying that they want these “troublemakers” who refuse to change their ways OUT of the parish and OUT of the Church!

I personally have a problem with this. I think that it’s best if “troublemakers” remain in the parish, in the Church, and in attendance at Mass, because this will make it more likely that they will continue to be taught the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and eventually make it to heaven. Outside of the Church and outside of Mass, their chances of heaven diminish alarmingly. I also think that outside of the Church and the parish, it is unlikely that they will receive any guidance about their behavior and their sins, and it is more likely that they will receive false teaching and affirmation of their sinful behavior, and continue to be involved in questionable and/or sinful practices and beliefs, and probably become involved in even more serious sins and practices that make hell even more likely.

But OTOH, I can certainly understand why people are concerned that these “troublemakers”, even the ones who are not seriously sinning but are merely annoying (e.g., the “chatters”) dilute the parish and the Church, and put the parish on the downhill slide to corruption. It does seem that practices that were once condemned have a way of slipping into parish life and eventually becoming entrenched and normal; e.g., chatting loudly in the nave.

Even the wearing of sleeveless blouses can eventually become the wearing of tank tops, and then the wearing of tube tops, and then the wearing of sports bras, and well, there aren’t many options for women’s clothing left, are there?

So I can understand why some people believe that these troublemakers should be rooted out before they “take over” the parish and the Church.

In case anyone wonders, my personal opinion is that this should all be left in the very capable hands of the parish priest, and that the laypeople should joyfully, without grumbling, submit to whatever the priest says and does in regards to “troublemakers.”

What’s your take on my question? Should the troublemakers leave or stay?

Thanks!

 

[robwar]

I am not sure what to make of your post. There is a difference between knowing and seeing people in the church who don’t live the best Christian lives and those lets say “Catholic” politicians that opening defy Catholic teaching lets say on support for abortion. There is a difference between someone who has sin in their lives and then those who are very vocal about their “disagreements” with a number of Church teachings and promote their views publicly. Your post combines the two. It is difficult not to want to see someone like Nancy Pelosi who thinks she can teach on “church doctrine” and does everything in her power to undermine the Church be asked not to present themselves for communion. yes no one in the Church is perfect and we are all on a journey and at different levels but when some very public figure want to state they are “Catholic” and then does everything in their power to disregard Church teaching, this does create public scandal and many of us want them to be dealt with.

 

[OraLabora]

Stay. We are all sinners and at different places on our faith walk. You can be sure if someone is driving us crazy, we are driving someone else crazy. Community life is never easy and never homogeneous.

The Rule of Saint Benedict is a good study on community life, particularly the chapter on humility. Those of us railing at the shortcomings of others, including the notorious dissenters, would do well to look at our own shortcomings. We all fall seriously short of the glory of God.

 

[FAB]

AMEN!

 

[saveusfromhell]

Generalisation is such a waste of time.

 

[triumphguy]

Would you prefer that “troublemakers” just leave your parish so that others (including you) can experience Mass, the Catholic faith, and parish life the way it’s supposed to be?

Or would you prefer that “troublemakers” remain in your parish, even with all of their faults and sins, so that they, along with you, can continue to hear true teaching, receive the Sacraments, and remain on the journey to sainthood?

This is a question that I have had for a long time.

Often on CAF, in fact, almost everyday, I read posts that imply that the poster wishes that certain people would just leave their parish and even leave the Catholic Church.

Sometimes this is in regards to serious disagreements with Church teaching; e.g., those who openly advocate abortion and work to help others procure abortions. I can certainly understand why Catholics long to see these people given an ultimatum to stop their sin or stop calling themselves “Catholics.”

Sometimes, though, it seems that posters on CAF (and sometimes, Catholics that I know in real life) would like their fellow parishioners involved in less-serious infractions to leave their parish and even leave the Church; e.g, those who violate the Vatican dress code, or those who “chat” in the nave before Mass.

I think, at least I hope, that most of these posters would prefer that these “troublemakers” simply stop the questionable behavior. In a perfect world, that would happen and it would be lovely!

And then, of course, there’s the question of what exactly constitutes a “troublemaker.” For some people, it seems that a woman who wears a sleeveless blouse is a “troublemaker.”

All too often, it seems to me that some people seem to be saying that they want these “troublemakers” who refuse to change their ways OUT of the parish and OUT of the Church!

I personally have a problem with this. I think that it’s best if “troublemakers” remain in the parish, in the Church, and in attendance at Mass, because this will make it more likely that they will continue to be taught the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and eventually make it to heaven. Outside of the Church and outside of Mass, their chances of heaven diminish alarmingly. I also think that outside of the Church and the parish, it is unlikely that they will receive any guidance about their behavior and their sins, and it is more likely that they will receive false teaching and affirmation of their sinful behavior, and continue to be involved in questionable and/or sinful practices and beliefs, and probably become involved in even more serious sins and practices that make hell even more likely.

But OTOH, I can certainly understand why people are concerned that these “troublemakers”, even the ones who are not seriously sinning but are merely annoying (e.g., the “chatters”) dilute the parish and the Church, and put the parish on the downhill slide to corruption. It does seem that practices that were once condemned have a way of slipping into parish life and eventually becoming entrenched and normal; e.g., chatting loudly in the nave.

Even the wearing of sleeveless blouses can eventually become the wearing of tank tops, and then the wearing of tube tops, and then the wearing of sports bras, and well, there aren’t many options for women’s clothing left, are there?

So I can understand why some people believe that these troublemakers should be rooted out before they “take over” the parish and the Church.

In case anyone wonders, my personal opinion is that this should all be left in the very capable hands of the parish priest, and that the laypeople should joyfully, without grumbling, submit to whatever the priest says and does in regards to “troublemakers.”

What’s your take on my question? Should the troublemakers leave or stay?

Thanks!

The troublemakers should stay.

I’m constantly amazed by how much I learn from trouble makers when I get my ego out of the way.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Would you prefer that “troublemakers” just leave your parish so that others (including you) can experience Mass, the Catholic faith, and parish life the way it’s supposed to be?

Or would you prefer that “troublemakers” remain in your parish, even with all of their faults and sins, so that they, along with you, can continue to hear true teaching, receive the Sacraments, and remain on the journey to sainthood?

This is a question that I have had for a long time.

Often on CAF, in fact, almost everyday, I read posts that imply that the poster wishes that certain people would just leave their parish and even leave the Catholic Church.

Sometimes this is in regards to serious disagreements with Church teaching; e.g., those who openly advocate abortion and work to help others procure abortions. I can certainly understand why Catholics long to see these people given an ultimatum to stop their sin or stop calling themselves “Catholics.”

Sometimes, though, it seems that posters on CAF (and sometimes, Catholics that I know in real life) would like their fellow parishioners involved in less-serious infractions to leave their parish and even leave the Church; e.g, those who violate the Vatican dress code, or those who “chat” in the nave before Mass.

I think, at least I hope, that most of these posters would prefer that these “troublemakers” simply stop the questionable behavior. In a perfect world, that would happen and it would be lovely!

And then, of course, there’s the question of what exactly constitutes a “troublemaker.” For some people, it seems that a woman who wears a sleeveless blouse is a “troublemaker.”

All too often, it seems to me that some people seem to be saying that they want these “troublemakers” who refuse to change their ways OUT of the parish and OUT of the Church!

I personally have a problem with this. I think that it’s best if “troublemakers” remain in the parish, in the Church, and in attendance at Mass, because this will make it more likely that they will continue to be taught the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and eventually make it to heaven. Outside of the Church and outside of Mass, their chances of heaven diminish alarmingly. I also think that outside of the Church and the parish, it is unlikely that they will receive any guidance about their behavior and their sins, and it is more likely that they will receive false teaching and affirmation of their sinful behavior, and continue to be involved in questionable and/or sinful practices and beliefs, and probably become involved in even more serious sins and practices that make hell even more likely.

But OTOH, I can certainly understand why people are concerned that these “troublemakers”, even the ones who are not seriously sinning but are merely annoying (e.g., the “chatters”) dilute the parish and the Church, and put the parish on the downhill slide to corruption. It does seem that practices that were once condemned have a way of slipping into parish life and eventually becoming entrenched and normal; e.g., chatting loudly in the nave.

Even the wearing of sleeveless blouses can eventually become the wearing of tank tops, and then the wearing of tube tops, and then the wearing of sports bras, and well, there aren’t many options for women’s clothing left, are there?

So I can understand why some people believe that these troublemakers should be rooted out before they “take over” the parish and the Church.

In case anyone wonders, my personal opinion is that this should all be left in the very capable hands of the parish priest, and that the laypeople should joyfully, without grumbling, submit to whatever the priest says and does in regards to “troublemakers.”

What’s your take on my question? Should the troublemakers leave or stay?

Thanks!

Just by reading your post it looks as though you are having a little difficulty with the situation. I haven’t yet heard any one talking about “troublemakers” except maybe the “Catholic” politicians. Most people I think come here to vent with what bothers them at mass. We are all sinners and if you are going to kick out troublemakers I think every one has to go. The more I think of it this is a troubling thread because as Catholics we are “once Catholic, always Catholic” and so we don’t kick people out, we encourage them to go to Jesus in the sacrament of reconciliation. We be salt and light to the world. We never push anyone away from Jesus but bring them to him. We witness to them by our actions.

It is the Holy Spirit that changes people but I also feel that the church and families need to do a better job at teaching. I know my ownself as a revert there was so much about the faith I didn’t know or was not taught but have recently studied myself. God leads us on a spiritual journey and everyone is in different places.

Also, IMHO that is why it is so important to remember the mass is a sacrifice and it is there because we are all sinners and we need it.

Also, perhaps the priests and the parishes need to be a little more encouraging of people to do what is right, to act right and dress right. People have reasons to be upset when they see God’s house mistreated.

I also think the majority of Catholics live out their faith day to day and don’t even realize what is said on these posts everyday and people are out there growing in faith and doing God’s will. Many Catholics today are begging God in prayer to bring their lost love ones home, not kick anyone out.

Most people here I think are just venting and like a little debate…

 

[Cat]

Interestingly, my thread was moved. I willingly submit to the wisdom of the moderators,

However, so far I only recognize a few of you who have responded. For those of you that I don’t know who are confused about the purpose of this thread, I encourage you to scan the list of topics in the Liturgy and Sacraments section, and perhaps this will help you to understand.

I fear that in this section of CAF, which I never visit, BTW, the people who need to see this thread and think about it will never see it, while those of you who are used to thinking deeply about various Church issues will not “get” this thread at all. Oh, well.

 

[TheDoctor]

I can’t answer your question until I figure out if I am one of the righteous or one of the troublemakers.

I guess it depends on who you ask. Lot’s of timber that has to be taken out of eyes in all the forums I think.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Interestingly, my thread was moved. I willingly submit to the wisdom of the moderators,

However, so far I only recognize a few of you who have responded. For those of you that I don’t know who are confused about the purpose of this thread, I encourage you to scan the list of topics in the Liturgy and Sacraments section, and perhaps this will help you to understand.

I fear that in this section of CAF, which I never visit, BTW, the people who need to see this thread and think about it will never see it, while those of you who are used to thinking deeply about various Church issues will not “get” this thread at all. Oh, well.

Interesting.

Well, I guess I feel that we need to remember in regards to this question is that people are coming to this forum from all around the world and all walks of life and there are those that are very well catechised and like to discuss theology and those who are just entering and learning.

We are all on a journey and in regards to the issues found in Liturgy and Sacraments it in no way represents the whole of the Catholic church and as an ex-protestant, Catholic revert I know for sure that most of these problems, except the ones regarding mass and strictly Catholic issues, most are found in the culture and non-Catholic churches as well. Probably alot of what is being discussed is due to what is happening in our culture today and the confusion it has put in so many people.

I can’t answer your question until I figure out if I am one of the righteous or one of the troublemakers.

I guess it depends on who you ask. Lot’s of timber that has to be taken out of eyes in all the forums I think.

Oh, I love that. I feel the same. Not sure which side I fall on. Got to keep working.

 

[BillP]

…There is a difference between knowing and seeing people in the church who don’t live the best Christian lives and those lets say “Catholic” politicians that opening defy Catholic teaching lets say on support for abortion. There is a difference between someone who has sin in their lives and then those who are very vocal about their “disagreements” with a number of Church teachings and promote their views publicly.

No there isn’t. We’re all sinners. I always get a chuckle out of those who think someone else’s sin is somehow “worse” than theirs.

Everyone is imperfect

Everyone is a sinner

Everyone is going to Hell but for God’s freely given, totally unmerited, Grace.

Hell is Hell.

Skip Mass to sleep in? Hell

Molest dozens of young altar boys? Hell

Protect a Priest who Molestes dozens of young boys? Hell

Procure an abortion? Hell

Eat Meat on Friday during Lent? Hell

Hell is Hell, everything that gets you there is the same.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Is it a question of people who annoy us in church for various reasons? People that we wish would move away or at least join another parish? Those kind of people you will find anywhere and everywhere; no getting away from them.

The “troublemakers” I have seen around the parish have been usually complainers or know-it-alls. Usually about what Father is or isn’t doing, or some of the decisions that are made or not made, who gets to be “in charge” of things, disagreements with other parishioners or groups, etc. Very little if anything that involves Church doctrines, Catholic beliefs or anything of earth shaking consequences. I can’t recall any fellow parishioner ever discussing a theological or doctrinal question with me. Generally speaking, most Catholics are not at Mass on a Sunday morning or serving on parish boards and committees the rest of the week because of theology. Their concerns are much more immediate, local and personal.

We can’t get rid of everyone with faults and sins, since the church would then be quite empty. Personally, not being the kind of person who sticks his nose into other people’s business, I really have no idea what faults or sins any of my fellow parishioners may have. I could probably guess about a few, but I have enough problems with my own faults and sins to spend any time worrying about anyone else.

If by “troublemakers” we are talking about people who question or even advocate disobeying certain doctrines, dogmas or rules of the Church, we are again encompassing a lot of people. This would include many ordained and other religious, theologians, Catholic scholars, perhaps even a bishop or two. I have been called a troublemaker (or worse) on CAF; yet I doubt anyone in my parish would consider me as that. In other words, how do you know what the person sitting near you in the pew really thinks or believes? You don’t, nor should you. It is no one else’s concern.

Some of the behavior and dress code examples mentioned in the OP are not evidence of “troublemakers”. Rather, they are evidence of people having a poor upbringing, having poor manners, having no consideration for others or for what is proper in church; being generally disrespectful and often quite clueless. Unfortunately, those are signs of the times, and the root causes of that are found in our society and culture. And also from a lowering of expectations, even in church, of what is acceptable behavior.

If there are troublemakers or apparently unorthodox people in church, in a way we should be thankful that they are there. For isn’t the Church supposed to be Apostolic and evangelistic, drawing all kinds of people into the Body of Christ?

 

[tabycat]

IMHO, the “troublemakesrs” should stay IN! We all have some ‘habit’ that bathers others, like kids or no kids, or not dressing the same way as they are, praying the roserey during Mass, chewing gum, or ‘gabbing’ with others before/after Mass. I’m the odd ball coming to Church in pants (I’m female), tee shirt, and sandals/sneakers, and no kids. I do think that kids should be at Mass with whoever brought them.