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Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?
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andrewstx
Guest
I think in the US, the opposite is true especially when it came to the Puritans,Calvinists who were pretty much the first Christians here and who’s philosophy is still followed by many Americans.
The Puritans were very much enamored by laissez-faire capitalism, and their Calvinism. Calvinism taught that having more money was a sign of God’s favor and indicated that they were amoung the elect.
Really I am not sure why conservatism is considerd more holy by some members. It is good for the “haves”, but is not so good for the “have nots”.
The Puritans were very much enamored by laissez-faire capitalism, and their Calvinism. Calvinism taught that having more money was a sign of God’s favor and indicated that they were amoung the elect.
Really I am not sure why conservatism is considerd more holy by some members. It is good for the “haves”, but is not so good for the “have nots”.
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tweetiebird
Guest
I had to do some soul searching about Luther.
I am a craddle catholic, but I went to public highschool.
So I grew up with the perception of Luther the emancipator.
Later in life I had to take a close look at Luther and exactly what he accomplished.
Now I see Luther through the eyes of a catholic.
Once again I had the misconception all of protestant denominations come from Luther.
But I now know to truly study Luther only consider the Lutheran denomination. Is the
Lutheran denomination liberal? I think it is conservative on the modern issues of the day.
The lutheran denomination is not liberal, I say that even though I am a staunch catholic.
But like the poster stated, some people may have taken his ideas and other movements formed.
I am a craddle catholic, but I went to public highschool.
So I grew up with the perception of Luther the emancipator.
Later in life I had to take a close look at Luther and exactly what he accomplished.
Now I see Luther through the eyes of a catholic.
Once again I had the misconception all of protestant denominations come from Luther.
But I now know to truly study Luther only consider the Lutheran denomination. Is the
Lutheran denomination liberal? I think it is conservative on the modern issues of the day.
The lutheran denomination is not liberal, I say that even though I am a staunch catholic.
But like the poster stated, some people may have taken his ideas and other movements formed.
Oh, it depends on the Lutheran, and on the synod. Some of my Lutheran siblings, sadly, have drifted into liberalism both in their politics and in their theology. Or, at least thei leadership has.
Jon
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benjammin
Guest
I think it is because social conservatives tend to be economically conservative as well, so they proclaim its values. Sadly what we need to realize is that economic conservatism can be bad. Unregulated capitalism is just as unethical as communism. I think what the church wants is there to be a center where we have capitalism, but everyone can live comfortably but also have people not want as much and give more
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SteveVH
Guest
It is the Christian responsiblity to care for the poor. Each and every one of us is responsible regardless of the economic model one follows. We cannot push that responsiblity on to the state and forget about it. I believe it was Mother Theresa who said we must “give until it hurts”. Christ takes serving the poor very seriously: ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
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benjammin
Guest
Agreed. By people, I mean
t actual individuals. Not government.
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onenow1
Guest
I have posted the below a long time ago, but Oh,how true !
God Bless
For approximately seventeen centuries men acknowledged that authority comes only from God, and temporal rulers sought the approval and the blessing of their bishops who, by divine right, ruled in their dioceses as successors of the Apostles. Then came the Philosophists. As always, the Power of Darkness used pride to achieve his aims, the pride of human reason. As always he called the Light, Darkness and the Darkness, Light (Isaiah 5:20). That is why the Medieval times are now referred to as the “Dark Ages”; (in fact, the Dark Ages were pre-Medieval), and why Philosophism is referred to as “Enlightenment”.
As always, the Devil acted with subtlety: he did not bring in Communism immediately, he brought in Modern Democracy first, knowing that the one would lead to the other. The lures inherent in the first would more easily lead to the destruction of man by the second. The Devil acted with cunning. So shrewd is he that even Christians were deceived. To make a thorough job of it he instilled into modern minds the myth of historical inevitability. “We must march with the times” we are told, as if the times were not what we are making them!
A SUBTLE AND GRADUAL PROCESS…
The present state of the world is not due to chance, it is the outcome of the everlasting struggle between good and evil. The Devil knows that his fight against God has to be gradual if it is to have any chance of success. Therefore, he began his fight in the 16th century by dividing Christianity.
When the first battle had been won, the Devil moved from the religious field into the philosophical field, and conceived Rationalism, which put human reason before Revelation.
Christians being already divided, there was no single front to defend the primacy of Divine Revelation. The interpretation of Divine Revelation being divided against itself, it could not resist the claim of the so-called primacy of human reason. Human reason appeared more reliable, and so the new philosophy installed itself. It naturally followed that man began to think about an earthly paradise.
Hence Rationalism begot Human Messianism (i.e. Humanism). It was then logical that man should not want to be impeded by standards of moral conduct. He had to be free from all restraints, and his reason alone was going to tell him how to act and behave.
Thus came into being the doctrine of Liberalism. Almost immediately, this doctrine extended to every field of human activity, especially economics, politics and science. From being philosophical, it became practical a way of life, the philosophical origin of which, most people do not suspect nowadays.
AN UNHOLY TRINITY…
After this, Human Messianism combined with Liberalism to set up CAPITALISM, an economic system based on greed and usury, which paves the way for Communism. Rationalism and Liberalism combined to give birth to the principle of POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY, being free and reasonable, every human being was to make all decisions.
Rationalism, and Human Messianism, combined to give birth to SCIENTISM (or the cult of Technology, the worship of the work of man, i.e. TECHNOLATRY) whereby we expect salvation from better and higher production, an error which was observed by Pius XII in his 1952 Christmas message. We speak of “Progress” in terms of industrialisation, completely unaware of “the undeniable advantages of an economy based chiefly on agriculture”. (Pius XII)
DIABOLICALLY LOGICAL…
Thus, the unholy trinity, that is, Rationalism, Human Messianism, and Liberalism, laid the ground-work for all the evils which are destroying modern society. Observe how gradual the process has been:
a) Difference in religious views (affecting the soul).
b) Alteration in philosophical thinking (affecting the intellect).
c) Organisation and purpose of the physical world (affecting the will).
Observe how logical the development:
a) REFORMATION (dividing Christianity to weaken Divine Revelation).
b) RATIONALISM (doubting that man can rely on Divine Revelation).
c) HUMAN MESSIANISM (asserting that man can rely on himself).
d) LIBERALISM (trusting man wholly).
e) CAPITALISM (Human Messianism plus Liberalism).
f) DEMOCRACY (Rationalism plus Liberalism).
g) TECHNOCRACY (and Technolatry) - (Nationalism plus Human Messianism).
These developments are too gradual and logical to leave any doubt that there is an Intelligence behind it. This Intelligence is that of the Power of Darkness.
A number of Saints have said that, in the Latter Days, evil will be done by men of good will. There is no doubt that many Catholics believe in good faith that we are living in an age of progress, and that Modern Democracy IS Progress. The superficial advantages which it presents hide from many its intrinsic nature, the errors on which it is based, and the evils which accompany it.
The deception of the Devil has worked.
God Bless
Satans’ Master Plan…
THE MASTER PLAN OF THE DEVIL. THE DEVELOPMENT OF MODERN ERRORS…For approximately seventeen centuries men acknowledged that authority comes only from God, and temporal rulers sought the approval and the blessing of their bishops who, by divine right, ruled in their dioceses as successors of the Apostles. Then came the Philosophists. As always, the Power of Darkness used pride to achieve his aims, the pride of human reason. As always he called the Light, Darkness and the Darkness, Light (Isaiah 5:20). That is why the Medieval times are now referred to as the “Dark Ages”; (in fact, the Dark Ages were pre-Medieval), and why Philosophism is referred to as “Enlightenment”.
As always, the Devil acted with subtlety: he did not bring in Communism immediately, he brought in Modern Democracy first, knowing that the one would lead to the other. The lures inherent in the first would more easily lead to the destruction of man by the second. The Devil acted with cunning. So shrewd is he that even Christians were deceived. To make a thorough job of it he instilled into modern minds the myth of historical inevitability. “We must march with the times” we are told, as if the times were not what we are making them!
A SUBTLE AND GRADUAL PROCESS…
The present state of the world is not due to chance, it is the outcome of the everlasting struggle between good and evil. The Devil knows that his fight against God has to be gradual if it is to have any chance of success. Therefore, he began his fight in the 16th century by dividing Christianity.
When the first battle had been won, the Devil moved from the religious field into the philosophical field, and conceived Rationalism, which put human reason before Revelation.
Christians being already divided, there was no single front to defend the primacy of Divine Revelation. The interpretation of Divine Revelation being divided against itself, it could not resist the claim of the so-called primacy of human reason. Human reason appeared more reliable, and so the new philosophy installed itself. It naturally followed that man began to think about an earthly paradise.
Hence Rationalism begot Human Messianism (i.e. Humanism). It was then logical that man should not want to be impeded by standards of moral conduct. He had to be free from all restraints, and his reason alone was going to tell him how to act and behave.
Thus came into being the doctrine of Liberalism. Almost immediately, this doctrine extended to every field of human activity, especially economics, politics and science. From being philosophical, it became practical a way of life, the philosophical origin of which, most people do not suspect nowadays.
AN UNHOLY TRINITY…
After this, Human Messianism combined with Liberalism to set up CAPITALISM, an economic system based on greed and usury, which paves the way for Communism. Rationalism and Liberalism combined to give birth to the principle of POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY, being free and reasonable, every human being was to make all decisions.
Rationalism, and Human Messianism, combined to give birth to SCIENTISM (or the cult of Technology, the worship of the work of man, i.e. TECHNOLATRY) whereby we expect salvation from better and higher production, an error which was observed by Pius XII in his 1952 Christmas message. We speak of “Progress” in terms of industrialisation, completely unaware of “the undeniable advantages of an economy based chiefly on agriculture”. (Pius XII)
DIABOLICALLY LOGICAL…
Thus, the unholy trinity, that is, Rationalism, Human Messianism, and Liberalism, laid the ground-work for all the evils which are destroying modern society. Observe how gradual the process has been:
a) Difference in religious views (affecting the soul).
b) Alteration in philosophical thinking (affecting the intellect).
c) Organisation and purpose of the physical world (affecting the will).
Observe how logical the development:
a) REFORMATION (dividing Christianity to weaken Divine Revelation).
b) RATIONALISM (doubting that man can rely on Divine Revelation).
c) HUMAN MESSIANISM (asserting that man can rely on himself).
d) LIBERALISM (trusting man wholly).
e) CAPITALISM (Human Messianism plus Liberalism).
f) DEMOCRACY (Rationalism plus Liberalism).
g) TECHNOCRACY (and Technolatry) - (Nationalism plus Human Messianism).
These developments are too gradual and logical to leave any doubt that there is an Intelligence behind it. This Intelligence is that of the Power of Darkness.
A number of Saints have said that, in the Latter Days, evil will be done by men of good will. There is no doubt that many Catholics believe in good faith that we are living in an age of progress, and that Modern Democracy IS Progress. The superficial advantages which it presents hide from many its intrinsic nature, the errors on which it is based, and the evils which accompany it.
The deception of the Devil has worked.
home.inreach.com/bstanley/
Author Unknown…
G
Gaelic_Bard
Guest
I think though, Steve, that capitalism lends itself better to what you described above. Private entities, when they’re free to pursue philanthropic ventures without government interference, will handle these responsibilities. Catholic Services was there prior to social security. Yet look what hapoens when government gets involved? Ala Catholic agencies being forced by the government to adopt to homosexuals in MA…so they close down.
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duneman
Guest
of course it has !!!
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benjammin
Guest
This is so true. However, we have to be careful that private individuals actually give. As human beings we are selfish, and anymore, I get the feeling a lot of rich people think of the poor as lazy bums who don’t deserve any charity. Of course, the government shouldn’t force people to give or take care of others either. we need to do it out of our own wills
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Gaelic_Bard
Guest
I agree, ben. It’s the gospel that the church uses to produce those fruits.
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silentfactor80
Guest
I don’t think Protestantism is defacto liberalism but it does contribute to it. I think Protestants overall have a profound dislike for the influence the RCC has as a result of its organization. I tend to think Protestants adopted birth control and recently gay marriage because they want the membership espoused by the RCC. Instead of rally around Christianity they have chased after false gods to scoop up the people who feel spiritual but reject the Church’s teaching on birth control and gay marriage.
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Gaelic_Bard
Guest
silent…not factually accurate. The last Gallup polls show 51% of Catholics support gay marriage laws. 59% of Protestants oppose it.
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SteveVH
Guest
I agree completely. Well said.
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
While Protestantism has led to a greater growth in democracy, I don’t think you can lay the blame for decadence at its door.
The rich have always been “liberal”, simply because they’ve had the time and the money to indulge themselves. While the middle and working classes generally had fairly strong morals, this was not the case with the rich. When industrialisation was just getting under way, the poor working classes were exploited and didn’t have the time or the means to indulge in depravity, although there was depravity in the poorest quarters.
These days machines do much of the work, thus freeing up much of the western middle and working classes, who can now live quite comfortably.
Most Protestant churches have preached a fairly strict moral code, and in some areas, they exceed the Catholic. Some of them are still anti-alcohol, anti-gambling, and certainly anti-fornication.
Secondly in the 20th century we saw a World War I where both sides claimed the imprimatur of the Christian God (and Moslem Allah in the case of Turkey), while they both used poisonous gas, blew each other to smithereens, and machine gunned an entire generation of young men.
We then saw an almost religionless World War II, with millions being done to death in concentration camps, and then the Cold War with Russia spreading many of her revolutionary ideas around the world.
I have no problem with the contraceptive pill for married couples just as recommended for use by married couples by two committees set up and / or expanded by two Popes, but the reality is that it’s made sexual immorality much more widespread. However I don’t see any difference between that and personal misuse of a weapon to kill innocent people - the moroal responsibility lies with the user.
Sure, Protestantism has led to the development of greater democracy, most powerfully expressed in the sometimes over-zealous and occasionally ridiculous US experiment. But I think its a bit much to blame modern depravity and moral standards on the Reformation. If you’re going to blame Protestantism, how do you account for the drug wars in Catholic Mexico? Or the high murder rate in Catholic Venezuela? Or Mussolini’s
Fascist Italy? Or Catholic Paris’ reputation for easy virtue in the lead up to the First World War?
I’d put several other factors at work - machinery and super industrialisation to begin with, along with the living standards they have created. Separation of God and state as another. Twol world wars and disillusionment with religion in fhe face of the result. The contraceptive pill for sexual immorality. Left wing politicians imbued with some of the less salubrious teachings of the former USSR eg. abortion on demand, allied with extreme feminism.
Finally, two western generations which haven’t suffered much. But I way I see things, that might be about to change.
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SteveVH
Guest
Yeah, some people think they were born Catholic, yet they haven’t seen the inside of a Church since their infant Baptism and won’t until they get married and then when they die. A wise old priest once told me that he felt like his job description was “hatch 'em, match 'em and dispatch 'em”. These folks still identify themselves as “Catholic”, however.
My point is that those numbers would certainly not hold up in my parish (I know pretty much everyone, its a small parish), nor really in any parish of which I’m aware. If its even close, however, it shows the greate need for evangelization and catechesis within our Church. The Catholic vote was huge for Obama. Unbelievable to me.
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Gaelic_Bard
Guest
Yes indeed. No one is more articulate on sexual and life issues than Pope Benedict. His last address on homosexuality several weeks ago was brilliant.Yeah, some people think they were born Catholic, yet they haven’t seen the inside of a Church since their infant Baptism and won’t until they get married and then when they die. A wise old priest once told me that he felt like his job description was “hatch 'em, match 'em and dispatch 'em”. These folks still identify themselves as “Catholic”, however.
My point is that those numbers would certainly not hold up in my parish (I know pretty much everyone, its a small parish), nor really in any parish of which I’m aware. If its even close, however, it shows the greate need for evangelization and catechesis within our Church. The Catholic vote was huge for Obama. Unbelievable to me.
I just don’t get in these threads why some insist on turning everything into a Protestant vs. Catholic argument. It’s just silly. Yes there are liberal Protestant churches. In the US they are miniscule compared to evangelicals. The Southern Baptist convention alone outnumbers 3 liberal denominations combined.
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mlz
Guest
Many sadly in the ELCA have been led into a very secular liberalism especially by many in leadership, which is why I started searching… eventually knowing I needed to be Catholic!
mlz
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silentfactor80
Guest
The Episcopalians at the National Cathedral just ok’d it. Watch people flock to them. I suppose I should have been a little clearer about what Protestants I meant. Also, black people supported Obama even after Baptist ministers got could shouldered by Obama. Any vote for a pro-gay marriage candidate is in fact supporting it. Your personal opinion isn’t a vote.
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