Would it be wrong for a Catholic firefighter to not put out a fire at an abortion clinic?

  • Thread starter Thread starter WildCatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
What difference is it going to make? It would be very easy for an abortionist to set up temporarily in other premises. I know personally of doctors (not abortionists) who are allowed to use unoccupied rooms in other than their own medical clinics at a moment’s notice when required for various reasons.

Or the clients in question would simply be referred elsewhere for their terminations.

Highly doubtful that even a single life would be saved, much as we may like to dream of miracles occurring in the (short) interim period until business is up-and-running again.
 
What difference is it going to make? It would be very easy for an abortionist to set up temporarily in other premises. I know personally of doctors (not abortionists) who are allowed to use unoccupied rooms in other than their own medical clinics at a moment’s notice when required for various reasons.

Or the clients in question would simply be referred elsewhere for their terminations.

Highly doubtful that even a single life would be saved, much as we may like to dream of miracles occurring in the (short) interim period until business is up-and-running again.
Per the BIG PICTURE? Not much difference. A difference though.

On the personal level, to the Catholic who has the option - maybe this difference:
Smoky’s Dilemma - A Firefighter’s Turmoil (fiction)
“I’m a firefighter. I want to do good in my community. This abortion clinic does harm in my community (and is the worst evil of our day IMO). Here is a fire harming the evil THING - and the fire is not my fault. I fight fires. I save people. I save property. When both are in jeopardy*** I save life first ***- its an ethic throughout my profession …”
" … Here is that clinic on fire and its my JOB and Duty to put out the fire and save the building. I also have a duty to save life where I can. No one is in the building. WHEN this particular building is functioning, life, which I it is also my duty to save, is being taken (not by a fire but by legally immune people killing babies). I have a duty to God and neighbor apart from my job - and normally these duties are in perfect harmony with my service job."
How do I reconcile this in the best possible way? I can’t (as LilyM rightly points out) save the whole world from abortion. And my actions might not save ONE, for the very reasons she enumerates.
But with my ONE chance to really matter, if it comes down to my discretion (no orders countermanded, etc.) must I necessarily (if passively) contribute to this evil by rescuing this abortion clinic? And its equipment? So that it can begin again to quickly take life that my duty obliges me in most circumstances (i.e. WHEN I have the power and opportunity to do so) to protect? I’m supposed to save lives off the job too. When there are no fires. CPR to a person in need. A tourniquet to a bleeding person til help arrives.
To some this is easy. SAVE THAT CLINIC!
To some of those same people saving a burning GUN factory would change things.
I don’t want to get fired. I don’t want to recuse myself from duty. Or quit. But I don’t WANT to give my all to saving this evil (due to what is DONE there when it’s open) building.
Smoky “Cops Out” - Puts it in God’s Hands (Prudence over Zeal!)
How does Jesus stand on the matter? THAT’S it. I’ll leave it to Him! In this case I will opt for prudence – and just see what happens. Then my conscience will be clear!

Drive very safely. Double check all equipment. Take a roll call. DON’T be rash or too quick. Conserve water. Wait for rain if possible. Wait for a solar powered fire engine. Pollution from the fire is bad enough without adding gas fumes. Gather all spare violation forms and come down hard on this irresponsible facility that has threatened its neighbor businesses and residences with ruin. Make sure to approach the building quite slowly so as not to trigger more security devices than are already involved. Prepare press releases
assuring the public that this crime scene will be scrutinized to find “the truth” if it takes a decade!

Happily - it didn’t matter after all. For reasons you can imagine. But Smoky felt good about being so thorough in his professional assessment and discretion - and that his moral conscience was not stained by assisting (in even an involuntary way) what he considered to be the worst evil plaguing his community, state and country. Could something else burn that he’d have similar doubts about? He couldn’t think of a one. 🤷

There are times when a professional, as well as a theoretician can say: “What difference does it make?”

And when it doesn’t make a difference. DO what your conscience prefers!

The conflicted character of Smoky is fictional as was the empty burning abortion clinic. No actual drywall was harmed in the concocting of this tale. The author opposes abortion, arson, dereliction of duty and open mouthed coughing - in approximately that order when there is a conflict as to which vice to oppose most vehemently.

THE BIG PICTURE!

 
When I was a vol. FF, I ran into issues like these, but everytime we got an actual call, my training kicked in and I left those issues behind. In Rverside County our motto is “Preserve Life, Protect Property” And thats exactly what I did.

May God bless and protect our Fire Fighter’s

jesus g
 
I don’t know if it will make a difference in your ProTip but … in Wild Catholic’s proposed scenario in post 1 … and in the very (SaintFrancis333) post you responded to the abortion clinic was empty.

Which seems to be your main objection. A pro-life objection if you will. And THAT would be quite a proper objection on your part per both the civic and faith obligations - as ACTUAL lives in the present would be being sacrificed to “save” theoretically (though probably) threatened lives "in the future - PLUS the property damage considerations.

I read the other post differently than justifying not aiding people. And therefore being evil. I highlighted the “no people harmed” stuff in red below. …:
I’m not interested in ad hoc excuses. the guy hired on under false pretenses and without telling anyone and refuses to do his job (I’d assume cowardice, actually). you can’t know whether or not there’s anyone in the clinic – and it would be criminally negligent to assume so. I’m not a firefighter, but I assume they work together in teams, so he’s responsible for the others on his crew and if he’s pouting somewhere because of his scruples, he’s endangering his teammates…

I don’t care what kind of scruples he has, just not under these conditions. the hypothetical fireman is a liar by omission and a danger to the public and his crew. before he’s fired, someone’s going to tear him a new one.

would you be happy with a Catholic dispatcher who refuses to dispatch units to the same abortion clinic on fire? or to a protestant church at night?

re property damage: the place is insured. so the insurance company is paying out. the cost of the damage is picked up by the people and companies who pay premiums. I don’t want to pay for someone else’s scruples.

either do the job or don’t take it.
 
What difference is it going to make? It would be very easy for an abortionist to set up temporarily in other premises. I know personally of doctors (not abortionists) who are allowed to use unoccupied rooms in other than their own medical clinics at a moment’s notice when required for various reasons.

Or the clients in question would simply be referred elsewhere for their terminations.

Highly doubtful that even a single life would be saved, much as we may like to dream of miracles occurring in the (short) interim period until business is up-and-running again.
In addition, as someone mentioned earlier, the insurance company would just pay for the building to be rebuilt and all the equipment to be re-purchased, increasing profits for the people who make the equipment, and possibly increasing premiums for other small (innocent) businesses that couldn’t afford it.

–Jen
 
here, the firefighter’s failure to act where there’s a duty to act is the moral equivalent of setting the fire himself…
 
Thanks for responding Jen! Per your:

Paragraph 1: Yes. Schindler was amazing in risking that. And an American firefighter who similarly decided that his “duties per his contract” did not extend unto – “doing one’s utmost to insure a life-taking enterprise ran at top speed” – would not be shot. Interned? Hmm. Not a Nazi concentration camp, but jail would be a possible risk for a scrupling firefighter (if caught).

Sentence 2: Yes. The buildings have done nothing wrong. Firefighters are not drafted, they apply. Doing one’s best to fight fires is generally the right thing to do.
I appreciate the discussion! 🙂 Nothing is so good at helping me understand what I think and why as having to write it down. 🙂

The second point above is more addressed to the point I was making. Nobody is going to put me in jail for not putting out a fire at an abortion clinic, because I am not a firefighter. I have chosen another career. When you take a job, you agree to do your job to the best of your ability. You are breaking your word if you decide not to do that. If you feel that you would be likely to decide that sometimes you could not do your job for moral reasons, you should not become a firefighter.
There seems to be a lot of support for Caesar (worldly duties prevailing) on this thread so far. And Jesus does say “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars”. Are all worldly priorities Caesar’s (the state, one’s boss, one’s contract?) or is there a point at which, like Peter teaching in the Temple in violation of Caiaphas’ orders, one decides:
This is not a dichotomy that I agree with. I am not suggesting that people should choose Caesar over God. I am suggesting that doing the job you have voluntarily taken, to the best of your ability, is what you owe to God.

It is wrong to choose not to do what you are being paid for. It is wrong to stand by and watch the destruction of legitimately owned property and do nothing when your job is to stop the destruction. (And, BTW, you don’t know that the clinic owns the building, and it is not practical to watch the fire while someone does a title search.)

A very good maxim that is very helpful in questions like this is, “You may not do evil that good may come.” (cf. Rom 3:8, CCC #1789) This seems to apply very well to this situation. Once I read or heard one very important reason (of many) for this (I can’t for the life of me remember where), which was that the evil was direct and certain, and the good was remote and unsure. In any case, the principle which says that it is wrong to shoot an abortionist is the same principle that says it is wrong not to put out the fire.

To use the words of the Catechism, “One may never do evil so that good may result from it.” Never. Even if the evil seems to be so much smaller than the potential good.

That answers the question in my mind, without any noticeable doubt. And I don’t believe I am choosing Caesar in this decision, but choosing God.

–Jen
 
here, the firefighter’s failure to act where there’s a duty to act is the moral equivalent of setting the fire himself…
Absolutely!:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::
 
In addition, as someone mentioned earlier, the insurance company would just pay for the building to be rebuilt and all the equipment to be re-purchased, increasing profits for the people who make the equipment, and possibly increasing premiums for other small (innocent) businesses that couldn’t afford it.

–Jen
Would the clinic be out of order longer if there is remaining building for the insurance to sort through?
 
I’m just assuming this is a hypothetical and am not interested in getting into the legality of the situation.

I recently reread the parable of the Good Samaritan. When I originally connected with this story in my preteens, I remember that Sunday School teacher pointing out that the Jews and Samaritans weren’t fond of each other, yet this man, without question helped someone in need. To put this in more mature terms, he didn’t ask the injured man his politics, religion, moral viewpoints etc., he just helped someone in need.

I hate abortion with a passion. If I heard on the news that an abortion clinic burned, I would have a difficult time being sad, if no innocent person was harmed. While I think that those that partake in these horrible enterprises are the most evil people I can imagine, I’m willing to let God sort it out. My doing evil to evil is not part of God’s plan in this matter as far as I know.
 
I’m not interested in ad hoc excuses. the guy hired on under false pretenses and without telling anyone and refuses to do his job (I’d assume cowardice, actually). you can’t know whether or not there’s anyone in the clinic – and it would be criminally negligent to assume so. I’m not a firefighter, but I assume they work together in teams, so he’s responsible for the others on his crew and if he’s pouting somewhere because of his scruples, he’s endangering his teammates…

I don’t care what kind of scruples he has, just not under these conditions. the hypothetical fireman is a liar by omission and a danger to the public and his crew. before he’s fired, someone’s going to tear him a new one.

would you be happy with a Catholic dispatcher who refuses to dispatch units to the same abortion clinic on fire? or to a protestant church at night?

re property damage: the place is insured. so the insurance company is paying out. the cost of the damage is picked up by the people and companies who pay premiums. I don’t want to pay for someone else’s scruples.

either do the job or don’t take it.
👍

And don’t forget there is a responsibility to make sure the fire doesn’t “jump” to neighboring buildings if the abortion clinic is not a stand alone structure. Plus buildings are morally neutral, its the people inside the building that are doing the immoral activity.

You take on the responsibility to be a fireman to protect the community as a whole, you don’t get to “pick and choose” what fires to fight and which ones to ignore. You either do the job to the best of your abilities every single time you get the call or you find another career choice.
 
That’s not always the case. It is very possible that obeying “sworn duties” puts one at odds with their Catholic faith. Soldiers being the most prominent example. If a higher up orders you to kill someone you know is innocent, following your sworn duty would mean abandoning the tenets of your faith. If there was no risk to others, I (personally) would work the perimeter to contain the fire from spreading (giving it more time to burn the clinic) and theeen put it out. Am I evil? No. Do I wish harm on anyone? No. I’m just not about to go out of my way to protect something that only causes evil in the world. Even if it’s my “job” to do so. Christ first in “all” things.
This is a dangerous and frightening position to take, and I am really glad that you do not appear to be an emergency responder. When you take these positions, you take them to perform a service and do your duty. If a building is on fire, you don’t even look to think what kind of building it is from a moral perspective, just as if someone is shot, you don’t check to see if they deserved to be. You put the fire out, you treat the shooting victim. That is they way it is and the way it has to be.
 
That’s not always the case. It is very possible that obeying “sworn duties” puts one at odds with their Catholic faith. Soldiers being the most prominent example. If a higher up orders you to kill someone you know is innocent, following your sworn duty would mean abandoning the tenets of your faith. If there was no risk to others, I (personally) would work the perimeter to contain the fire from spreading (giving it more time to burn the clinic) and theeen put it out. Am I evil? No. Do I wish harm on anyone? No. I’m just not about to go out of my way to protect something that only causes evil in the world. Even if it’s my “job” to do so. Christ first in “all” things.
Hmmmm. I must have missed the part in the parable of the Good Samaritan, where the Samaritan interrogated and assessed if the man was deserving of a beat down or not. Oh wait it is in there! The first two that passed him by did exactly that! When there was a need they made personal and “moral” judgements to pass him by. We are called to serve and to be a light to the world. There is a right way and wrong way to fight abortion. Letting it burn is the wrong way and as someone else pointed out, a firefighter refusing to put out the fire has the same moral problem as if he had set it. Surely you do not condone going around and burning abortion clinics down?!
 
Is everyone out? If so, let it burn.
Indeed.
Unless there is a life threatened, it would seem to me a perfectly acceptable method to simply contain the fire.
Why should we wish our firefighters to risk their lives to protect an empty building?
 
Indeed.
Unless there is a life threatened, it would seem to me a perfectly acceptable method to simply contain the fire.
Why should we wish our firefighters to risk their lives to protect an empty building?
because that’s what they’re paid to do.
 
Would it be wrong for a Catholic firefighter to not put out a fire at an abortion clinic? Wrong is a concept Catholics acknowledge. It “could” be wrong. In ALL cases? Most fires aren’t abortion clinic fires. But that does bring some considerations to a Catholic’s mind. To a moral relativist “wrong” can be a contrived concept the just limits ones freedom. Though even most moral relativists have their own moral code - and while they might not care for the concept of objective truth trumping a more flexible “your truth/my truth” model - at some point most of these will indicate at some point there exists “wrong”. At least in disagreeing with them.
  • If there is no such thing as objective wrong - the answer to this must be “no”.
  • Wrong CAN be done by Catholics. More info needed. Could it be right NOT to “put out the fire at the abortion clinic?” Yes in some instances. Many NOT related to the FF’s being Catholic at all.
A firefighter whose pension was tied to a stock in the company that owned the abortion clinic (and who was additionally pro-abortion) might have a certain level of zeal in putting out that fire that would be hard to match.
Must a “Catholic firefighter” do at least as much to be a “good” firefighter - or be seen as
a hindrance in some way? Conversely, a callous “do nothing” extreme wouldn’t even be “rendering to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s” - in this case “job is - fighting fires for the community”. Can one serve both Caesar (to the proper level) and God (to the proper level)?

catholic.com/magazine/articles/when-is-it-okay-to-disobey This article may shed some light on the subject. It’s on civil disobedience - and when it can be proper. AND the “right thing to do” over and above one’s loyalty to the state etc.

This article quotes scriptures giving BOTH cases. Duties to the state or community. Duties to God. It also gives some guidance as to what to do when the two duties seem to conflict. And grave consequence to the community and other people are at stake:
Catholic Catechism: Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility: A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an **unjust law, **and thus has not so much the nature of law as of **a kind of violence. **(1902)
Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it. If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse. (1903)
Firefighting at an uninhabited building is not handing an abortionist a sharpened curette or filling a container with flesh scalding chemicals to be sure — but as per “assisting evil versus assisting virtue” per abortion it is certainly more the former than the latter (per an examination of conscience).

Posters here have weighed in on both sides of this. From “let it burn” (the evil of abortion understood to be “this is not your usual fire” and a Catholic may do so). Not to put words in anyone’s mouth. To:

Save the abortion clinic at all costs firefighter. You are a traitor (to your profession and community) if you don’t. You are not AT Church (and your feeling like a traitor to your faith or to God are not a consideration). If you do “not put out this fire” you deserve to be “fired” (pardon the pun) and maybe more. Not to put words in anyone’s mouth here either.

Does the usually GOOD thought: How much GOOD can I do here? Or how can I best serve God and my neighbor here? Have any place in this theoretical dilemma? (YES! per me). And it always does. Serving God first** is **actually serving neighbor best.

I used Oskar Schindler as an example of such civil disobedience earlier. Other Catholics did less than he when confronted with evils and their duties. Pope Benedict was drafted into “the (Nazi) Army” and later deserted and was taken prisoner by the Allies. Schindler found himself in a position of power - with an opportunity to save some innocent lives - IF he withheld SOME of his complete cooperation with the state. At that time private Josef Ratzinger did not have such an opportunity. Smoky the fictional firefighter (post 22) mulls how much within his duties and opportunities he can do his best to “preserve life” and “preserve property”, still fight fire, and in what order should his many firefighter duties be prioritized given THIS case.

When Jesus said “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s” He does not say to finish the paragraph by concluding " … and to CAESAR .… the things that are GOD’S!"

If I am on a fire department review board, and after the fact – (the clinic having burned completely down) the firefighter was: not to be found to be hindering other firefighters directly; and did not quit at the point of the call-in; and was seen to be doing things proper to the job at the time – I dismiss the case as being “inconclusive,” with “no disciplinary action necessary”. Perhaps sitting through an orientation video again. 🤷

And if a Muslim or Jewish firefighter showed less than fanatical zeal in fighting a fire at
the ham, pork sausage and bacon works – I would not recommend their firings nor a moratorium on HIRING people of those faiths in the future either.

nypost.com/p/news/regional/item_Uv6OpLMZk7DodsFSfXlpOM
 
Indeed.
Unless there is a life threatened, it would seem to me a perfectly acceptable method to simply contain the fire.
Why should we wish our firefighters to risk their lives to protect an empty building?
So if you or your family is not at home when your house catches on fire, its ok to let it burn then right?:rolleyes:
 
Indeed.
Unless there is a life threatened, it would seem to me a perfectly acceptable method to simply contain the fire.
Why should we wish our firefighters to risk their lives to protect an empty building?
Indeed.
Unless there is a life threatened, it would seem to me a perfectly acceptable method to simply contain the fire.
Why should we wish our firefighters to risk their lives to protect an empty building?
Would you feel that way if we let your home or office burn because no one was in there? If you were out of the state of grace could I let your home burn? If I found out that the people whose home it is used birth control could I let it burn? I am hoping we would all say no…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top