Would It Be Wrong to Meet with an Orthodox Priest to Hear their Side of the Catholic/Orthodox Debate?

[nsper7]

I am new to Catholicism (Confirmed in the Easter Vigil of 2009) and was brought to the Catholic Church by looking at history and coming to the conclusion that the Catholic Church was the original Church founded by Christ.

But as I learn a little about the Orthodox, I get confused. I know the Catholic argument in favor of Papal Primacy (which the Orthodox would agree with, it is issues of Papal Supremacy and Infallibility they disagree with), but in the Middle Ages, there was a great deal of corruption due to the power of the Pope (Papal Supremacy issues).

In modern times, the Catholic Church seems to be a mess. Maybe I have spent too much time at Fisheaters, but it seems the Church has liberalized considerably and many members of the hierarchy fall into this view. One seems to find Priests and Bishops who have little concern over sin issues, they view the Sacrament of Pennance as unimportant, there is liturgical abuse, support by many Catholics of things they are not supposed to support (i.e. abortion and contraception). Then there is the heavily legalistic thread within Catholicism, especially in the Traditionalist backlash, which I seem to have latched onto (i.e. if I just avoid mortal sin, then who cares about anything else).

It confuses me because I hear different advice from different Catholic Priests on important issues. For example, I deal with a masturbation/pornography issues, but I know of one Priest who when I confess it, treats it as though it is either not a sin (or at least not a mortal sin) because it is an addiction. I have had another Priest throw me out of the Confessional for going too often and he did not even allow me to confess my sins (I thought the only valid reason a Priest can refuse to grant Absolution is if he feels said penitent is not…well…penitential/repentant, but that was not the issue here).

One sees polls which shows many Catholics don’t even believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

My understanding is that this sort of stuff does not go on in the Eastern Orthodox. They did not have a Protestant Reformation brought on as a backlash to corruption issues, nor do they have the legalistic or modernist/liberal/progressive bent that seems to be pulling the Catholic Church apart at some levels. Whereas Catholic leaders seem hesitant to excommunicate (or at least laicize) individuals who advocate positions contrary to Catholic teaching, the Eastern Orthodox will not tolerate heterodoxy/heresy, regardless of your ecclesiastical rank, nor would they tolerate liturgical abuse.

A part of me wants to meet with an Orthodox Priest to hear their version of the Great Schism and how they deal with the issue of the Petrine issues. But if the Catholic Church is right and Eastern Orthodoxy is wrong, then I maybe buying myself a ticket to Hell because rejection/schism/apostasy from the Catholic Church are mortal sins.

It confuses me because the Eastern Orthodox seem to have the same claim on history as Catholics do and, if one looks at things as they currently are, there seems to be a mess in the Catholic Church (regardless of one’s opinion on Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX, his book “An Open Letter to Confused Catholics” points out some serious issues within modern Catholicism).

EDIT: The Eastern Orthodox also seem less obsessed with Hell and Sin than Catholics are.

 

[5Loaves]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I am new to Catholicism (Confirmed in the Easter Vigil of 2009) and was brought to the Catholic Church by looking at history and coming to the conclusion that the Catholic Church was the original Church founded by Christ.

But as I learn a little about the Orthodox, I get confused…

It confuses me because I hear different advice from different Catholic Priests on important issues…

My understanding is that this sort of stuff does not go on in the Eastern Orthodox…

EDIT: The Eastern Orthodox also seem less obsessed with Hell and Sin than Catholics are.

You bring up a great many issues. You’ve had less time as a practicing Catholic than you had in the catecheumenate. And RCIA is never enough formation. We need to continue on. If your parish doesn’t have adult formation classes that suit your concerns go to the chancery office and ask for help finding appropriate adult formation opportunities.

I would suggest you find a qualified spiritual father, either Roman Catholic or of an Eastern Church, or bi-ritual who can begin to help you find more grounding. I see from your Meet & Greet you’ve already had a number of different religions affiliations. Because of this and the fact you are young, and don’t have a lot of formation in your Catholic faith I think it would not be a wise thing to address your concerns with an Orthodox priest at this time. Moving to yet another religious community isn’t the answer.

There’s nothing wrong with talking with Orthodox priests. I do it all the time with great benefit, but I’m much older and more experienced. But from your description what you need presently is good spiritual direction in the Catholic Church. If the priests you go to confession with give you responses you think are not orthodox then you need to seek confessors who are better suited to your needs. Your chancery office can help you do that. There are many wonderful, solid Catholic priests out there. You have work to do and you need someone reliable to do it with. Since you do have an interest in Orthodoxy I would try very hard to find a bi-ritual priest who should be familiar with Orthodoxy.

Hang in there.

 

[nsper7]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

You bring up a great many issues. You’ve had less time as a practicing Catholic than you had in the catecheumenate. And RCIA is never enough formation. We need to continue on. If your parish doesn’t have adult formation classes that suit your concerns go to the chancery office and ask for help finding appropriate adult formation opportunities.

I would suggest you find a qualified spiritual father, either Roman Catholic or of an Eastern Church, or bi-ritual who can begin to help you find more grounding. I see from your Meet & Greet you’ve already had a number of different religions affiliations. Because of this and the fact you are young, and don’t have a lot of formation in your Catholic faith I think it would not be a wise thing to address your concerns with an Orthodox priest at this time. Moving to yet another religious community isn’t the answer.

There’s nothing wrong with talking with Orthodox priests. I do it all the time with great benefit, but I’m much older and more experienced. But from your description what you need presently is good spiritual direction in the Catholic Church. If the priests you go to confession with give you responses you think are not orthodox then you need to seek confessors who are better suited to your needs. Your chancery office can help you do that. There are many wonderful, solid Catholic priests out there. You have work to do and you need someone reliable to do it with. Since you do have an interest in Orthodoxy I would try very hard to find a bi-ritual priest who should be familiar with Orthodoxy.

Hang in there.

You’re post directly addresses the stuff I’m dealing with. Let’s start with RCIA: the people there were very nice, but there was outright heresy repeated by one of the catechists (the Hell-exists-but-is-empty heresy) and it was progressive (I was bit of a gadfly and actually angered one of my fellow candidates because I kept asking questions about Hell and mortal sin). I think if I had not read on my own, I might not have ever become Catholic because a lot of the Catholics I was around viewed it as like…oh well, one denomination or another, not the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church versus mere ‘ecclesial communities’.

One of the things I realized is wrong with Protestantism is because it comes down to subjective choice (do you prefer or less liturgy? more or less strenuous a faith? Calvin or Arminian? OSAS or not? Lordship Salvation or Free Grace) and reading all the arguments put forth by all the different Protestant groups, it came down to just personal choice, whatever you preferred.

What attracted me to Catholicism was unity of faith and beliefs…or so I thought. I heard one catechist talk about it is okay to disagree with Church teachings as long as you’re guided by your conscience or something like that (um…so then dogma is really just suggested views, no wonder so many Catholics use contraception or support abortion).

You mention finding a Priest who I feel will meet my needs, but with the whole gamut Priests seem to run (radical Traditionalists to radical liberal/progressive), how is that much different than Protestantism? I have had a Priest tell me they felt certain historic Catholic writings should be burned.

And as one who possibly wants to be a Priest himself, it is difficult when you hear stories of all sorts of heresy being taught in Seminaries and advocated by certain Bishops. Where is the unity? We claim to be unified under the See of St. Peter, but many Catholics seem to take the view the Pope only needs to be obeyed when we agree with him (both liberals and Traditionalists, such as the SSPX, are guilty of this), but few people are read the riot act or excommunicated or anything for being disobedient and teaching things that are incorrect.

It is very confusing.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother nsper7,

In modern times, the Catholic Church seems to be a mess. Maybe I have spent too much time at Fisheaters, but it seems the Church has liberalized considerably and many members of the hierarchy fall into this view. One seems to find Priests and Bishops who have little concern over sin issues, they view the Sacrament of Pennance as unimportant…

EDIT: The Eastern Orthodox also seem less obsessed with Hell and Sin than Catholics are.

I’m confused by these two statements by you. You seem to be criticizing the Catholic Church for having “little concern over sin issues,” yet (unless I interpreted you wrongly), you don’t find anything wrong with the EO displaying the same thing.

The fact of the matter is, the Latin and Oriental Traditions - on an official and dogmatic level - has a more penitential and “Justice-oriented” spirituality and theology than the Eastern Tradition. You may find individual priests be more liberal, but that is not the TEACHING of the Church.

I came into the Catholic Church by studying her teachings, not by focusing on the shortcomings of individual Catholics or her priests. Perhaps that should be your focus (just a humble suggestion)?

In any case, if the less “Justice-oriented” and less penitential spirituality/theology is what will help you grow closer to God, then you can find it within the Catholic Church among the Eastern Byzantine Churches in communion with the Petrine See of Rome.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[nsper7]

Dear brother nsper7,

I’m confused by these two statements by you. You seem to be criticizing the Catholic Church for having “little concern over sin issues,” yet (unless I interpreted you wrongly), you don’t find anything wrong with the EO displaying the same thing.

The fact of the matter is, the Latin and Oriental Traditions - on an official and dogmatic level - has a more penitential and “Justice-oriented” spirituality and theology than the Eastern Tradition. You may find individual priests be more liberal, but that is not the TEACHING of the Church.

I came into the Catholic Church by studying her teachings, not by focusing on the shortcomings of individual Catholics or her priests. Perhaps that should be your focus (just a humble suggestion)?

In any case, if the less “Justice-oriented” and less penitential spirituality/theology is what will help you grow closer to God, then you can find it within the Catholic Church among the Eastern Byzantine Churches in communion with the Petrine See of Rome.

Blessings,
Marduk

Sorry, that was a bit of poor posting on my part. I meant that seems like there are two threads one sees within Catholicism currently and in its history:

1. Liberalism currently
2. Obsession with sin and Hell in the past and among more Traditional Catholics today

 

[Nine_Two]

Speaking as someone who is Orthodox keep in mind that while Catholicism has issues it is dealing with, so does Orthodoxy. We may not have priests and bishops who proclaim what we have already condemned as heresy or error, but certainly we do have some issues.

All of these errors are however the creation of man. If you are going to switch between the Churches make sure it is because of an actual agreement/disagreement with the doctrine which is taught, otherwise when you get to the other one you’ll find just as much human element involved, although the issues may be completely different.

If you are interested I encourage you to study the teachings of the Church and find out what the distinctions and what the similarities are. By all means having a discussion with an Orthodox priest sounds like an excellent idea, just don’t expect the grass to be greener on the other side (politically speaking).

I say this as someone who left the Anglican Church, and eventually ended up at the Orthodox Church and carried some of that attitude with me. While I did become Orthodox (and do fully believe the teachings of the Church), the grass is greener attitude was not one of the things that helped me, and in fact God led me to forget about it just before my Christmation.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother nsper7,

Sorry, that was a bit of poor posting on my part. I meant that seems like there are two threads one sees within Catholicism currently and in its history:

1. Liberalism currently
2. Obsession with sin and Hell in the past and among more Traditional Catholics today

The Church has both wheat and tares. That is a dogmatic teaching of every Church. Why should the tares force you to leave the Church? Focus on the official teaching, brother, and “fellowship” (to use a Protestant term) with those who will inspire you.

There are certain things within EO’xy that Catholics would claim are “liberal.” Sometimes the term “liberal” is simply very subjective. The best thing, to repeat, is to focus on the official teaching of the Church, and not be distracted by the actions of the tares among the wheat.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[nsper7]

Speaking as someone who is Orthodox keep in mind that while Catholicism has issues it is dealing with, so does Orthodoxy. We may not have priests and bishops who proclaim what we have already condemned as heresy or error, but certainly we do have some issues.

All of these errors are however the creation of man. If you are going to switch between the Churches make sure it is because of an actual agreement/disagreement with the doctrine which is taught, otherwise when you get to the other one you’ll find just as much human element involved, although the issues may be completely different.

If you are interested I encourage you to study the teachings of the Church and find out what the distinctions and what the similarities are. By all means having a discussion with an Orthodox priest sounds like an excellent idea, just don’t expect the grass to be greener on the other side (politically speaking).

I say this as someone who left the Anglican Church, and eventually ended up at the Orthodox Church and carried some of that attitude with me. While I did become Orthodox (and do fully believe the teachings of the Church), the grass is greener attitude was not one of the things that helped me, and in fact God led me to forget about it just before my Christmation.

I realize that and that may be part of what is driving me to look at the Orthodox (I sort of thought about them before becoming Catholic). The other issue is that, while there is an Eastern Orthodox parish in my city, there are no Eastern Catholic parishes nearby (nearest could be a few hours away).

 

[5Loaves]

You mention finding a Priest who I feel will meet my needs, but with the whole gamut Priests seem to run (radical Traditionalists to radical liberal/progressive), how is that much different than Protestantism? I have had a Priest tell me they felt certain historic Catholic writings should be burned.

I did not say to find a priest who you feel will meet your needs. I said " seek confessors who are better suited to your needs." The qualified spiritual director is the one to help ascertain what your needs in fact are; he would help you address the jumble you have yourself tied up in. Continuing to focus on the litany of problems outside is not going to help you get grounded in your own faith life. Those problems are out there, Catholic and Orthodox.

And as one who possibly wants to be a Priest himself, it is difficult when you hear stories of all sorts of heresy being taught in Seminaries and advocated by certain Bishops. Where is the unity? We claim to be unified under the See of St. Peter, but many Catholics seem to take the view the Pope only needs to be obeyed when we agree with him (both liberals and Traditionalists, such as the SSPX, are guilty of this), but few people are read the riot act or excommunicated or anything for being disobedient and teaching things that are incorrect.

It is very confusing.

As Nine_Two and Marduk brought up the Orthodox are plagued with a myriad of similar issues.

As long as you continue to focus outward on the problematic people in the church you will continue to be confused wherever you are. I stand by my original observation that you need to get attached to a qualified spiritual director. While there are qualified women I think you should seek a qualified deacon or priest. If you do indeed has any aspirations to priestly vocation spiritual direction would be the place you’d have to begin anyway. I suggested asking at the chancery. Another option is to go to someone in the church you regard highly and ask them for help in finding a spiritual director.

Re: RCIA in my experience RCIA varies. More orthodox parishes have more orthodox RCIA. You apparently have been attached to a parish that you find is not orthodox. I live in the SF bay area and it’s hard to get more liberal than this area. Yet there are still a number of orthodox Catholic parishes within 20 or 30 minutes of my house to pick from. In my time working in RCIA we have had people come from other parishes to our RCIA because the RCIA in the other parish was a problem for them, and we’ve had people in our RCIA leave and go off to other parishes. (The teaching in the catecheumenate varies equally widely in Orthodox parishes from what Orthodox friends tell me.)

Priests (Catholic and Orthodox) come and go. Parishes change. As Nine_Two and Marduk said the official teachings of the church are what we are called to learn and live. Again, adult formation classes offered by your diocese are a good place to learn these teachings and how to apply them.

 

[Nine_Two]

As Nine_Two and Marduk brought up the Orthodox are plagued with a myriad of similar issues.

I wouldn’t say they’re similar issues, just that there are always man-made issues no matter what.

 

[sidbrown]

In modern times, the Catholic Church seems to be a mess.

In the past, Catholics liked to have large families. Take a look for example, at the family of Ambassador Joseph Kennedy. However, presently, it looks like Catholics prefer smaller families, even though many reports indicate that only a small percentage of Catholics use NFP. This contrasts with Muslims, at least in my area, who have families of six or seven children.
So are Catholics being taught about artificial birth control today and that it is a mortal sin?

 

[SingleMomMonica]

As Nine_Two and Marduk brought up the Orthodox are plagued with a myriad of similar issues.

(The teaching in the catecheumenate varies equally widely in Orthodox parishes from what Orthodox friends tell me.)

Not a myraid of problems and not similar to what the OP has described. In our parish, the problems are that the Organ sounds awful and detracts from the choir and the cantor, but their is the family who decades ago purchased it for the parish and the elderly person playing it who would be offended if we stopped the use of it. Then we have most of the parishioners who will come to Wednesday Family/Bible Study night, but only a handful show up for Saturday night Vespers in preparation for Divine Liturgy. Then we also have people who show up late to Divine Liturgy. Then when a priest uses ekonomia for someone, like allowing a new convert couple who has 8 children and the doctor says that due to medical problems because of having back to back children, it is danderous for them to have another child, the priest may say it is permissible for that couple to use birth control so that the wife’s body can heal and the husband and wife can still have intimacy while the husband continues to struggle to overcome his pornography addition, others in the parish who find out that the priest allowed birth control use without the full details of the situation may think it is permissible to anyone rather than what it actually is the spiritual fathers use of ekonomia to aid that couple where they are in overcoming their physical and spiritual illnesses. These are the types of problems in our parish.

In every Orthodox parish I’ve attended, large and small, the catechumins meet regularly directly with the priest to learn the Faith. When the priest feels they’re ready, then they come into the Church through Chrismation.

 

[Hesychios]

Would It Be Wrong to Meet with an Orthodox Priest to Hear their Side of the Catholic/Orthodox Debate?

Addressing this question alone (and no single issue of the particulars in your original post), I would say you must turn over every stone and see what is underneath.

Doubts? Abolish them or acknowledge them.

The same would be true for any Orthodox. If one needs to hear the Latin Catholic side of these things, the heart will be restless until one does just that. If you do, you should be a better Catholic or Orthodox Christian. If you don’t your Faith will probably suffer in the long run.

Face your dragons.

 

[Tradycja]

Might I suggest that you read the following books?:

Russian Church and the Papacy by Vladimir Soloviev:
amazon.com/Russian-Church-Papacy-Vladimir-Soloviev/dp/1888992298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261500810&sr=8-1-spell

Blessed Bishop Nicholas Charnetsky, C.Ss.R., and Companions Modern Martyrs of the Ukrainian Catholic Church
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0764808672/ref=sr_1_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261500841&sr=1-1&condition=used

You migh want to also check out this wikipedia page which lists converts from Orthodoxy to Catholicism: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Converts_to_Catholicism_from_Eastern_Orthodoxy

The story of Demetrios Kydones is especially good:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrios_Kydones

It forms part of the book “Ending the Byzantine Greek Schism” by James Likoudis

James Likoudis has several apologetical works about Orthodoxy. Very good stuff.

Also in Russia Fr. Andrey Uduvenko
stmichaelruscath.org/outbound/parishes/rc-moscow-pa-2001.php

and Fr. Sergei Golvanov en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Golovanov are two Moscow Patriarchate priests that came into union with Rome. Both of those priests speak english. Maybe you can contact them by email.

 

[Mickey]

But as I learn a little about the Orthodox, I get confused.

It will not do you much good to read conversion stories from either side because there is a built in polemic. I suggest that you follow Hesychios’ advice.

Also, do your homework. Study Church history. Read the lives of the saints and the writings of the Church Fathers. Take in the Liturgy. And pray, pray, pray. God will lead you to a proper discernment.

Blessings,
Mickey

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Nsper7

To answer your question directly: Listen to what an Eastern Orthodox Christian has to say about Eastern Orthodoxy – DON’T listen to what he/she says about Catholicism.

Similarly, listen to what a Catholic Christian has to say about Catholicism, but DON’T listen to what he says about Orthodoxy.

Take it from the horse’s mouth. Let the horse tell about the horse, and let the cow tell about the cow.

If you go to an Eastern Orthodox priest (or Oriental Orthodox priest), and he starts to put down Catholicism, just kindly remind him that you are there to learn about Eastern Orthodoxy, not Catholicism.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Face your dragons.

LOL - like St. George did

It is great advise Hesychios gave…that last comment just gave me a mental image that made me giggle although there is really nothing funny about St. George fighting the dragon. But the outcome was with God’s help St. George won the battle and you will too. Once you win the battle (knowing which Church is True) you will obtain peace of mind and heart. And then the real journey begins…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

You bring up a great many issues. You’ve had less time as a practicing Catholic than you had in the catecheumenate. And RCIA is never enough formation. We need to continue on. If your parish doesn’t have adult formation classes that suit your concerns go to the chancery office and ask for help finding appropriate adult formation opportunities.

I would suggest you find a qualified spiritual father, either Roman Catholic or of an Eastern Church, or bi-ritual who can begin to help you find more grounding. I see from your Meet & Greet you’ve already had a number of different religions affiliations. Because of this and the fact you are young, and don’t have a lot of formation in your Catholic faith I think it would not be a wise thing to address your concerns with an Orthodox priest at this time. Moving to yet another religious community isn’t the answer.

nsper7,

Weren’t you so intent on entering religious life/priesthood that you were looking for groups that would accept neophytes?

Have you gotten a spiritual director? This is the best advice, even here.

A while ago I went though this same sort of thing but decided that the Catholic Church has gotten it right even though it is not done right all of the time.

 

[Mickey]

A while ago I went though this same sort of thing but decided that the Catholic Church has gotten it right even though it is not done right all of the time.

And I went through the same process and came to a different conclusion (the fullness of truth of Holy Orthodoxy).

Yes, the best advice is to pray for discernment.

 

[nsper7]

After meeting with my spiritual director earlier today, I think I will do the following:

1. Contact an Eastern Rite Catholic Priest to try and meet with him, learn more about the Eastern Rites and possibly consider a Rite change
2. Read why the Eastern Rites groups made the change from Eastern Orthodox to Catholic

In regards to Point 2, can anyone suggest any good articles on this subject?