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PJM
Guest
Articulate and chairatible
God Bless you
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God Bless you
T
The_Apostolate
Guest
Mary is the one that we receive all Grace,s.You know. I get accused of not being Catholic.
But here’s why I say the following: I’m concerned for people reading along who are not catholic. No wonder we seem like a funny bunch to them.
I mean, HOW did God ever get along in the O.T. before Mary?
Was there no grace back then?
Is God incapable of handing out some grace unless it’s through Mary?
Fran
BTW, The O: should read the CCC starting with the following and continuing.
Grace
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. the soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. the promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54
2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’"58
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frangiuliano115
Guest
I pray the Lord’s blessings for you at this Christmas season and throughout the new year!
Fran
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guanophore
Guest
Only when you post non-Catholic or anti-catholic material.
In this post you included a lot of great material from the CCC. What would be your answer to the thread title?
I would say it is not necessary to pray for grace/merit, chiefly because, as you have noted in those great passages, it has already been given to us. We need to pray that we will be able to open ourselves to what has been poured forth in and for us.
As far as the merit, I prefer to think of merit as worthy. We need to do deeds that are worthy of the great grace we have received. So yes, we should strive for holiness in all things, but this also is contained in the grace that has alredy been given to us. It might be better to pray that we are able to walk in that grace moment by moment and do the good works that God has prepared before hand that we shold walk in them.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Couldn’t have said it better myself!Only when you post non-Catholic or anti-catholic material.
In this post you included a lot of great material from the CCC. What would be your answer to the thread title?
I would say it is not necessary to pray for grace/merit, chiefly because, as you have noted in those great passages, it has already been given to us. We need to pray that we will be able to open ourselves to what has been poured forth in and for us.
As far as the merit, I prefer to think of merit as worthy. We need to do deeds that are worthy of the great grace we have received. So yes, we should strive for holiness in all things, but this also is contained in the grace that has alredy been given to us. It might be better to pray that we are able to walk in that grace moment by moment and do the good works that God has prepared before hand that we shold walk in them.
Regarding Mary. God could supply grace in any way He wants to - Mary could be a source of grace. But it’s not correct to say that all grace comes through Mary. She was a great source of comfort to me when I was a young girl.
As far as merit is concerned: We merit nothing. We are God’s creatures and are totally dependent on Him for everything. ONLY through His grace do we receive our life.
As you said, we’re to use His grace to the best of our ability and pray for that. We could pray for more grace - no harm in it - but He’s already giving us all the grace we could ever have need of. God doesn’t hold back!
People might think of grace as a thing to be dolled out. God is love. God is grace.
Fran
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Mary_Ellen
Guest
According to the New Advent website, the Catholic definition of “Merit” is - By merit (meritum) in general is understood that property of a good work which entitles the doer to receive a reward from him in whose service the work is done.The issue of merit is complicated and the Catholic Encyclopedia at New Advent goes into great depth - it’s worth a read.
I wouldn’t pray for merit itself but would pray for the grace to be strengthened to perform meritorious acts.
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PJM
Guest
NO, actually; not according to Paul; in the sense we know it now:thumbsup:
Rom. 6:14-15 “For sin shall not have dominion over you;** for you are not under the law, but under grace**. What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”
WOW! your lack of understanding is frightning
Certainly God COULD; but choose NOT to distribute HIS Own Grace. He lovingly shares THAT task with His BELOVED Mother.** Read John 19: 25-28**, wherein Jesus give Mary; His MOTHER to all of humanity as their Mother. It was therefore also fitting that Jesus permit HER to distribute to US, His Grace necessary for our salvation.
Fr Hardon said:
"Truth is the condition of grace; it is the source of grace; it is the Chanel of grace; it is the divinely ordained requirement of grace." Please reflect carefully on this".
BTW, The O
: should read the CCC starting with the following and continuing.Grace
SORRY to shorten your post, but I needed space to reply to it.
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church".
Your many “grace” CCC quotes in no way, shape or form; change the reality of grace; the natures of grace; the need for grcae or GOD Himself being the ONLY Source of Grace.
Mary as Mediatrix of ALL graces is the DISTRIBUTOR of all grace; NOT its source; NOT even the one who determines who is OFFERED which type or how much. Those task are handled by God. But this honor is yet another of the MANY bestowed upon Her by a Just God, who determined that it is a task worthy of Her many proofs of Her love and humble and complete obedience to Her God.
.
Luke 1:46-59
"And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy:As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.
And thank you for sharing that some of us here have concerns about what you teach as a Catholic:thumbsup:
God Bless you Fran!
Patrick
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’"58
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frangiuliano115
Guest
FOR PJM
Your posts are rather long and never seem to address the question at hand.
I think it’s because you like typing and quoting more than you like to answer directly to what one has to say.
However, you posted at the beginning of your above post.
Rom. 6:14-15 "For sin shall not have dominion over you; for you are not under the law, but under grace.
Gosh. PJM. I think you DO agree with me!
Fran
Your posts are rather long and never seem to address the question at hand.
I think it’s because you like typing and quoting more than you like to answer directly to what one has to say.
However, you posted at the beginning of your above post.
Rom. 6:14-15 "For sin shall not have dominion over you; for you are not under the law, but under grace.
Gosh. PJM. I think you DO agree with me!
Fran
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guanophore
Guest
http://1ywpi925eu8i25ne6noy0131.wpen…All-Graces.jpg
Here are a couple paintings that capture the concept of God passing grace to humanity through Mary.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
I think where people get hung up on this concept is the error that grace somehow comes FROM Mary, rather than THROUGH Mary. She is not the Source of the graces, but only dispenses what God enables her to give.
I think what is being referenced in this phrase is that Jesus entered the world through Mary, and since all grace comes from God, it finds it’s fullest expression through the Theotokos. I have also heard Mary described as the “neck” through which the Head pours grace to the Bride. This is how she is understood as the “mediatrix” of all graces.
Here are a couple paintings that capture the concept of God passing grace to humanity through Mary.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
I think where people get hung up on this concept is the error that grace somehow comes FROM Mary, rather than THROUGH Mary. She is not the Source of the graces, but only dispenses what God enables her to give.
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guanophore
Guest
I think that God’s method of saving humankind has not changed. In the OT, people were saved by grace, through faith, just as we are today. It is true what you have said, that they were “under law”, but the Law did not save them, grace did.
Those who were saved by grace, through faith, awaited Jesus “in prison” where he appeared after his crucifixion, to open the gates of heaven to those who awaited Him.
Israel herself was a type of Mary. God intended for the Good News to be shared with the world through Israel, but this did not happen. Israel rejected Christ as messiah, so His plan that the world should come to know Him through His chosen people was fulfilled through Mary, who protects and defends the disciples of her son.
Some of the blatant contradictions to the Church teaching are concerning.
C
clem456
Guest
God is the source of all grace. He shares it in ways we don’t know or understand.
One thing we do know for sure is Jesus is God’s full sharing of himself with humanity.
And God shares himself with us through the womb of Mary.
Jesus, the Word of God, did not hatch from an egg that dropped out of the sky.
And Mary is not an accident of history.
God chose her to reveal himself to us.
One thing we do know for sure is Jesus is God’s full sharing of himself with humanity.
And God shares himself with us through the womb of Mary.
Jesus, the Word of God, did not hatch from an egg that dropped out of the sky.
And Mary is not an accident of history.
God chose her to reveal himself to us.
G
guanophore
Guest
Perhaps you can explain this concept and where you came by this idea?
We cannot “earn” grace. We can engage in deeds that befit repentance, and live a life worthy of our calling. To see and be closer to God is to walk on this earth in a state of grace, or right relationship with God. To do so, we must cooperate with grace, and work out the salvation of God that is at work within us.
T
The_Apostolate
Guest
Jesus are Lord allow,s Mary QUEEN of Heaven and Earth,too give us the Graces ,that will benefit our Soul,s,You know. I get accused of not being Catholic.
But here’s why I say the following: I’m concerned for people reading along who are not catholic. No wonder we seem like a funny bunch to them.
I mean, HOW did God ever get along in the O.T. before Mary?
Was there no grace back then?
Is God incapable of handing out some grace unless it’s through Mary?
Fran
BTW, The O
Grace
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. the soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. the promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54
2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’"58
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PJM
Guest
It is the teaching of the RCC that MARY IS the channel of ALL Garce:thumbsup:
NOT the Source of grace
NOT the one who decides who gets which grace and how much [that is Her Son’s decision]
BUT nevertheless; Mary is the ONE Chosen by Her Son Jesus; to actually distribute ALL grace. Amen!
Catechism: 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.
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PJM
Guest
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PJM
Guest
Once again Fran your wrong.
The Sacraments; notably here Sacramental Confession & the Eucharist are dependent on OUR personal choices to avail ourselves of them and THEREFORE be offered the Graces of that that particular Sacrament. Further; the degree of contrition for Confession and the degree of our TRUE understanding of the Eucharist as the REAL Presence [our active participation] determine how much grace will be offered each and every time.
This too IS incorrect
God commits himself to OFFER “sufficient grace” that everyone MIGHT be saved. But grace can be denied, grace can be improperly or partially used or accepted. So it is a fallacy to hold the believe that God simply supplies regardless of ones life choices a super-abundance of grace to just everyone.
In addition to Sacramental grace;** charity [often termed OUR “good-works”] **are also a source of grace where WE have an active role; much like we do in the case of Sacramental grace; to determine by our life choices; IF we will be offered more grace; what type of grace it will be and then are disposed as God would have us to be; and then allow God to decide just how meritorious; how worthy of grace our actions are.
The idea that “God doesn’t hold back” is only a dream.
OF COURSE God holds back if we are NOT in the State of Grace. NOT totally; but lessened amounts of grace.
1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
1874 To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs
Sufficient grace is made available for one to CHOOSE to be contrite and to receive Sacramental Confession. **But the Idea that an abudnance of grace is available to "ALL; all of the time is incorrect. **
God Bless,
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
My post are long as a necessity to provide the evidence of the CATHOLIC positions which I share.
God Bless you Fran
P
PJM
Guest
thanks!
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