would it have been possible to be a confederate and a devout catholic?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Odell
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
[continued from prior]
The slaves were '“uneducated” because HELLO the slaves were not allowed to learn how to read.
This is not entirely true through the entire South. Besides, this is not a matter of “allowed” at all. The fact is that there were a fair number of blacks (both freemen and slaves) who were in fact educated.

I also want to point out in my comments that “education” is more than mere reading and writing skills and also includes learning social mores and the laws etc. I have many nephews and nieces who are young students who know how to read and write fluently but who possess absolute NO labor skills or wherewithal to get them employed.

Except by by what some slaves “learned through their labor” few of the slaves had a knowledge of how to farm, or had any skilled-labor training (e.g lumber yard, shoeing horses, raising livestock, metal working, carpentry etc.) in the marketable things in demand in the Southern economy. While there was substantial need for raw muscle-labor to haul material and harvest crops etc. it was not a well paying job sufficient alone to sustain a family. Note too that not all Southerners could read or write either - but most had some rudimentary skilled-labor that they learned from someone else by tutelage, observation, apprenticeship or by formal schooling. And the sad reality is that both slave and freemen who Labored in the fields had no immediate need to be schooled for that job nor was it the moral responsibility of the employeer (nor the “master”) to train his labor in skills that were not necessary for the job to which he was employed. That said, it was immoral for them to be held as slaves in the first place but would have been a worse moral offense to put them out to fend for themselves with no means for livelihood. It was truly a catch-22 moral delimma for everyone.

Outside of the confines of the slave camps it is true that Southern Society at large had mixed feeling about its moral societal obligation to educate slaves and freemen blacks. Not that it was justified, but there were real fears that if “the Negros” were educated they would only become more agitated as they were exposed to more passionate ideals and ideas in much of the romanticized literature. You need to understand the moral delimma the South was in - they were very afraid of insurrection and leadership rising up (like a new Sparticas – a leader of the slaves in the Third Servile War in the 70 BC time frame) and leading revolts against all Southern citizens. Again, let me make it perfectly clear - I personally do not approve of what happened. But to talk about these matters one must understand the fears and the motives of people who DID have a moral conscience but simply lacked the facilities for knowing how to “make right” of the matter without getting both sides killed. Whites where scared out of their goards at the same time they agonized about how to deal with the problem that a few bad men created for everyone. Most of the South was as much a victim of slavery as the blacks were.

North Carolina we generally known to be humane to slaves during the ante-bellum period. There were at least 2,331 freedmen who could read and write. So they had schools for the freedmen - that means it was not at all a race issue. It was a “slave” issue since the state did have some schools for the black freedmen. But you are correct it was an offense ($100-$200 fine) to educate a slave for a time period but not generally enforced. But admittedly even freedmen were “discouraged” from being educated before the war due to Southern fears that reading certain literature works (e.g. the abolitionists rabid propaganda that wanted an immediate and impractical cessation to slavery) would “excite passionate dissatisfaction” and elevate the risk of general insurrection. Yet there were public schools that certainly taught freedman and there were lessor number of slaves educated irrespective of civil penalties that were on the books (but often overlooked and not enforced). So we see that certain southern states had indeed taken early fledgling steps at addressing the moral obligation of the society to educate the blacks. In fact the moralist pointed out the obvious need to teach them to read so that they could read the bible and become good Christians.

Here is an e-paper on it if you would like to read it. The Education Of The Negro Prior To 1861 − A History of the Education of the Colored People of the United States from the Beginning of Slavery to the Civil War

Here is a snipet:
The early advocates of the education of Negroes were of three classes: first, masters who desired to increase the economic efficiency of their labor supply; second, sympathetic persons who wished to help the oppressed; and third, zealous missionaries who, believing that the message of divine love came equally to all, taught slaves the English language that they might learn the principles of the Christian religion. Through the
kindness of the first class, slaves had their best chance for mental improvement. Each slaveholder dealt with the situation to suit himself, regardless of public opinion. Later, when measures were passed to prohibit the education of slaves, some masters, always a law unto themselves, continued to teach their Negroes in defiance of the hostile legislation. Sympathetic persons were not able to accomplish much because they were usually reformers, who not only did not own slaves, but dwelt in practically free settlements far from the plantations on which the bondmen lived.


[continued]

James
 
[continued from prior]
Now if by “uneducated” you mean “intellectually inferior”, well history has proven you wrong. Just 145 years after the abolition of slavery we have Blacks excelling and prospering in every field of American life: science, entertainment, business, education, sports and politics… including the highest office in our land. If I comb through the history books, I cannot think of any people who have gone from so low to so prosperous in such a short time, while living in a land where they were persecuted and kept down by law. So I don’t buy your line that the US slaves were “uneducated”.
NOPE - this is NOT what I meant at all but you sure seem eager to get us into a racial argument. But that said blacks certainly have reason to be proud of their achievements. And so do whites and all Americans in overcoming their past wrongs and in spending billions if not trillions of combined dollars (and blood too) in helping offset the errors of the past.
You say there would have been no room to put the slaves once they were freed? I call BS. Texas alone is huge. Plenty of space. California. All the land in-between, lots of room. “Where we gonna put 'em all!” LOL.
STRAWMAN. I said nothing at all about not having room or a place to “put” freed slaves. You seem to be advancing segregation here and giving the freedmen their own state or region like the US did with native Americans. Are you? Can you reconcile this with your opening admonishment to me please? 😉
I don’t want to take up too much space on the boards, but I noticed in your reply to @Lujack you mentioned something about Our Lord choosing “twelve white Jewish men” as His disciples. Another LOL.

You seem like a nice guy and well-meaning. I will be sure to visit you in the Whites-only section of Heaven.
Please BB- we both know from our common Catholic faith that God is not a respecter of persons. There is no longer race, free or unfree, or even a distinction of gender with respect to standing before God in heaven - we become a new Creation. Surely you agree yes?

James
 
You’re wrong when you say that, though. At Southern slave auctions, women of childbearing age were sold for the highest price. There’s a reason for that, unfortunately.
I wonder about this. I haven’t researched every place, but in my state, male slaves brought about 1/3 more than did female slaves, on average.

Not to be crude, but it’s counter-intuitive as well. After all, female slaves of the era would not have been any more attractive, on average, than anyone now. It’s just hard for me to comprehend a slaveowner paying more for an ugly female slave than for a healthy male who could outwork the female. Doesn’t make sense.

There were Catholic chaplains with the Confederate forces. In my state, a Catholic chaplain accompanied a group composed mainly of his former parishioners in St. Louis which became part of the Missouri Brigade; the most highly decorated unit in the Confederate Army. He, himself, performed significant acts of heroism, and was honored by the Confederate government for that. His parishioners (thus the soldiers in his charge) were mostly Irish, and many Irish of the time identified the relative heavy-handedness of the Federal government with what they had experienced in Ireland under the English. Granted, many Irish fought on the side of the Union as well.

But slavery had nothing to do with those mens’ motivations in fighting for the Confederacy.
 
By the way sorry for my spelling just realized it. Looks like the slaves were not the only uneducated 🙂
 
Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 did not apply to Union-held territory. Thus, slavery continued in the thirteen Louisiana parishes under Union control. After much debate, delegates to the constitutional convention agreed to abolish slavery without compensation for masters but not to give the vote to black men. The new constitution, however, authorized the state legislature to extend voting rights to black men who fought for the Union, owned property, or were literate.

don’t look like it was all about slavery to me
 
By the way sorry for my spelling just realized it. Looks like the slaves were not the only uneducated 🙂
LOL! Thank you, that was a good laugh. Kudos! 😃

And @CentralFLJames, reaching my hand out to shake yours. Racism in America is a mugh. We’re slinging mud at ppl we have never met. Mea cupla.

Goodnight, gentlemen.
 
The civil war was not started because of slavery…it was not fought by the southerners because of slavery. You should try to understand history more thoroughly as to what the causes of the civil war was…there were many, and I hate to disallusion you, but prior to the Gettysburg address, slavery wasn’t even considered a reason by either side for fighting. Lincoln, facing the possibility of a loss during his upcoming re-election campaign (the war became very unpopular, because the northerners had lost the desire to continue the war and were suffering many losses) in a last ditch effort shifted the focus of the war with the Gettysburg address and gave the people a new rallying point…but what is funny, is that the Gettysburg Address, while being beautifully written, was in fact just a bunch of words that did not set a single slave free that wasn’t already a free man…and what is sad is that when they went to the northern states seeking refuge, they were mistreated (in some cases worst than they were down south) and refused assylum.

With that said, there were some really bad southerners…there were also some really bad northerners…i.e. General Sherman’s actions during his march to Atlanta was simply criminal…but nobody had a monoply on bad people. Just because someone was a confederate would not exclude them from being a good Catholic…they could have made the conscious choice to not own slaves or to mistreat them…and a lot of southerners didn’t even own slaves…and there were many who did that treated them very well and didn’t abuse them. There were many documented cases in history where slaves wanted to fight alonside their owners because they loved them and considered them family.
I’m proud of my southern heritage and I’m a fan of state rights. Unfortunately state rights justified slavery I of course disagree with slavery. I know the constitution says we the people have the right to stand up and defeat the government if it no longer represents the people. This in my opinion is what the south was fighting for. And this is what I’m proud of as a southerner. But I’m also a devout catholic there’s not anything wrong with that is it?
 
LOL! Thank you, that was a good laugh. Kudos! 😃

And @CentralFLJames, reaching my hand out to shake yours. Racism in America is a mugh. We’re slinging mud at ppl we have never met. Mea cupla.

Goodnight, gentlemen.
Peace be with you bouncing ball!
 
The civil war was not started because of slavery…it was not fought by the southerners because of slavery.
I think it varied from state to state and even from area to area within states. I have read it opined that the only states that really wanted the Civil War were Massachusetts and South Carolina.

But whatever the case, my own state tried to remain neutral. It was a slave state (with few slaves) but wanted no part of the war. However, it was invaded on the east by Union troops from Illinois, led by a hothead who shot up a bunch of people in St. Louis, and on the west by Jim Lane; an outright criminal who was given a Union commission. (Jim Lane is still reviled around here).

Union gunboats drove the legislature out of the capitol, and replaced the elected representatives and governor with Union men.

So, the legislature moved to the southern part of the state where it passed articles of secession and the state was admitted to the Confederacy. That started a Civil War all its own within the state; a war that didn’t really quite end until the death of Jessee James.
 
Ridgerunner, that’s a nuanced statement. I’d sure value your opinion on my assertion that BOTH sides thump their chests with righteous indignation that rings false.

I still say that the North absolutely feared what the South could do to them economically with slaves if/when they industrialized. This was the motivation to restrict the territorial growth of slavery and eventually abolish it, not a great moral awakening across the populace.

The South makes all kinds of grand righteous noises about the Union trampling state’s rights but it seems glaringly obvious to me that THE right in question is local determination over the legal status of slavery. However much you try to package it, that’s not a very glorious cause to fight for.

As such nobody wears a white hat in this conflict, as usual. What says you?
 
The civil war was not started because of slavery…it was not fought by the southerners because of slavery. You should try to understand history more thoroughly as to what the causes of the civil war was…there were many, and I hate to disallusion you, but prior to the Gettysburg address, slavery wasn’t even considered a reason by either side for fighting. Lincoln, facing the possibility of a loss during his upcoming re-election campaign (the war became very unpopular, because the northerners had lost the desire to continue the war and were suffering many losses) in a last ditch effort shifted the focus of the war with the Gettysburg address and gave the people a new rallying point…but what is funny, is that the Gettysburg Address, while being beautifully written, was in fact just a bunch of words that did not set a single slave free that wasn’t already a free man…and what is sad is that when they went to the northern states seeking refuge, they were mistreated (in some cases worst than they were down south) and refused assylum.

With that said, there were some really bad southerners…there were also some really bad northerners…i.e. General Sherman’s actions during his march to Atlanta was simply criminal…but nobody had a monoply on bad people. Just because someone was a confederate would not exclude them from being a good Catholic…they could have made the conscious choice to not own slaves or to mistreat them…and a lot of southerners didn’t even own slaves…and there were many who did that treated them very well and didn’t abuse them. There were many documented cases in history where slaves wanted to fight alonside their owners because they loved them and considered them family.
:clapping::clapping: Now there is a man who knows his history!!!
Ridgerunner, that’s a nuanced statement. I’d sure value your opinion on my assertion that BOTH sides thump their chests with righteous indignation that rings false.

I still say that the North absolutely feared what the South could do to them economically with slaves if/when they industrialized. This was the motivation to restrict the territorial growth of slavery and eventually abolish it, not a great moral awakening across the populace.
You put your finger on something very important: What WAS the motive to abolish slavery? And how was that all wound up with the question of western expansion?
When you dig into those questions, you find that the North was sucking the South dry, with taxes & tariffs, & any other thing to keep the South as broke as possible.

But as far as keeping slavery out of the West, what the North really wanted was to keep slaves out of the West. You see, those Southern slaves who would have been moving westward would have been black…and Lincoln & Co had just spent a lot of time & even more money to ban all black persons from entering onto their “Free Soil”, by which Ol’ Abe himself was free to explain, they meant :eek:“free of persons of colour”.
Let the slaveowners bring their slaves in, then the slaves will be earning their freedom, & then they will become American citizens, & all those “keep the West white” people from Illinois & New England & New Jersey, etc, knew they would find themselves living next to African Americans.
Whereas, us good ol’ rebels, hon, were well used to the company of persons with black skins, & red skins, & who spoke other languages than English.
And there would have gone Mr Abraham Lincoln’s “lily-white-by-law” home state of Illinois.

Sometimes it pays to be an old lady who has been fighting this battle pretty-near since she stepped off the boat &😉 thanked that nice Mr Noah for the ride.
 
With that said, there were some really bad southerners…there were also some really bad northerners…i.e. General Sherman’s actions during his march to Atlanta was simply criminal…
Actually, no they were not. It was not all that different from Lee’s march into Penn prior to the Battle of Gettysburg. Remember the the reason Heath moved into the town was because of the supplies of shoes that were rumored to exist there. It was common practice for BOTH armies to forage from the populace when they moved in enemy territory.

Sherman pulled up railroad ties ( which the Confederates did as well, calling them "Mrs. Lincoln’s hairpings, instead of ‘Sherman’s neckties’) . The only real addition was the destruction of mills and factories. But then, again, Lee didn’t encounter any of those on his march either, so we could never really say what Lee would have done.

Here are Shermans orders for the March
IV. The army will forage liberally on the country during the march. To this end, each brigade commander will organize a good and sufficient foraging party, under the command of one or more discreet officers, who will gather, near the route traveled, corn or forage of any kind, meat of any kind, vegetables, corn-meal, or whatever is needed by the command, aiming at all times to keep in the wagons at least ten day’s provisions for the command and three days’ forage. Soldiers must not enter the dwellings of the inhabitants, or commit any trespass, but during a halt or a camp they may be permitted to gather turnips, potatoes, and other vegetables, and to drive in stock of their camp. To regular foraging parties must be instructed the gathering of provisions and forage at any distance from the road traveled.
V. To army corps commanders alone is entrusted the power to destroy mills, houses, cotton-gins, &c., and for them this general principle is laid down: In districts and neighborhoods where the army is unmolested no destruction of such property should be permitted; but should guerrillas or bushwhackers molest our march, or should the inhabitants burn bridges, obstruct roads, or otherwise manifest local hostility, then army commanders should order and enforce a devastation more or less relentless according to the measure of such hostility.
VI. As for horses, mules, wagons, &c., belonging to the inhabitants, the cavalry and artillery may appropriate freely and without limit, discriminating, however, between the rich, who are usually hostile, and the poor or industrious, usually neutral or friendly. Foraging parties may also take mules or horses to replace the jaded animals of their trains, or to serve as pack-mules for the regiments or brigades. In all foraging, of whatever kind, the parties engaged will refrain from abusive or threatening language, and may, where the officer in command thinks proper, give written certificates of the facts, but no receipts, and they will endeavor to leave with each family a reasonable portion for their maintenance.
VII. Negroes who are able-bodied and can be of service to the several columns may be taken along, but each army commander will bear in mind that the question of supplies is a very important one and that his first duty is to see to them who bear arms. …
Hardly the words of a criminal.
 
Proud Southern Catholic here. I’m proud of the Confederacy and fly her flag over my home. The Confederate States of America stood for morality, truth and above all, God. Someday the South will rise again. 😃
 
Proud Southern Catholic here. I’m proud of the Confederacy and fly her flag over my home. The Confederate States of America stood for morality, truth and above all, God. Someday the South will rise again. 😃
Cool. Can I borrow some of your slaves? Lots of snow to be shoveled from my driveway. Send 'em around the back entrance, I’m busy sipping tea and catching up on my knitting. Thanks much!
 
If you honestly believe the War of Northern Aggression was fought over slavery, you really need to study up.
 
If you honestly believe the War of Northern Aggression was fought over slavery, you really need to study up.
Where did I say that it was fought over slavery? I do know that slavery was perfectly legal in the Confederate States.

Now kindly send me over your niggers, I can’t get my buggy out of the driveway.
 
Oh, and before the moderators get upset, let me qualify my post that I’m Black American/African-American/Afro-American/Colored/Negress (circle one).
😃
 
Where did I say that it was fought over slavery? I do know that slavery was perfectly legal in the Confederate States.

Now kindly send me over your niggers, I can’t get my buggy out of the driveway.
Few practiced slavery in the South. How about the slavery that was practiced in Africa?
 
Why the slight BouncingBall?..if you think the Civil War was truly fought over slavery, then you were done an injustice in your education. I am personally offended by your statements…I am a born and raised southerner myself and no one in my family owned slaves and I don’t agree with slavery, but if you look in the context of why they were here and the purpose they served…not to mention it was legal, then it is understandable that they existed at the infancy of our fine country…that doesn’t make it right (morality) wise, nor does it excuse any horrible acts committed by owners (which as a matter of fact was the exception as opposed to the rule)…but it was just a way of life. It is also true, that in the south we valued honor and integrity…and I honestly feel that if the south would’ve won or held out long enough to win northern people sympathy and understanding, then this country would be a better place.

Oh, and FYI, if you don’t want other people using the “N” word as you have in your posts, then you should set the example and not use it yourself.
Cool. Can I borrow some of your slaves? Lots of snow to be shoveled from my driveway. Send 'em around the back entrance, I’m busy sipping tea and catching up on my knitting. Thanks much!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top