would it have been possible to be a confederate and a devout catholic?

[Ridgerunner]

Think of a country with slavery in its constitution! Most historians, southern and northern, think the south is much better off because it was not able to secede.

Not the oligarchs who controlled southern politics and agribusiness.

Among other things “states rights” was used as an excuse for racial segregation. It makes it impossible to have a nation of states, and would enable an amorphous amalgam. States already have rights.

And the ‘states rights’ people should not be fooled either – state political action can be just as oppressive as that which they decry from the federal government.

In all likelihood, slavery (yes, indefensible) would have ended very shortly even without the Civil War. Slavery was a “rich man’s game”; sort of like having a $250,000 tractor now. It depended on the economic success of large agribusiness, particularly of cotton. Very shortly after the Civil War, the cotton market crashed because the Brits (who imported most of it) began importing long-staple cotton from Egypt instead; a better product than the short-staple upland cotton which was mostly what the South could produce. Cotton has really never recovered. It’s now heavily subsidized and government-insured. In my state, cotton-growing seems to be more like “subsidy and crop insurance policy growing” than actually growing an economically viable crop.

Now, one might ask what would have happened to all the slaves if they were suddenly turned out by their masters, like my ancestors were turned out in Ireland by the landlords. Hard to know. I do know Lincoln entertained the idea of sending them all back to Africa, and it was tried to some degree. That’s why the state of Liberia exists there. If he had not been assassinated, that might have been the result, but on a bigger scale.

Nobody knows.

 

[wjp984]

What I find ironic is that the Federal Government thought it necessary to impede on State’s Rights to end slavery but then also thought they would impede on state’s rights and force them to kill babies. I’m not hijacking the thread but just pointing out a point that sometimes, states’ rights are important and there were probably justifiable reasons for the South to secede and there would be nothing wrong with Catholics participating.

Sometimes, I wish states could say to Hell with the Federal Govt. Drinking ages being forced on states, speed limits being forced on states, and of course abortion being forced on states.

 

[CentralFLJames]

…
Lincoln was seriously low in public opinion and it didn’t appear that he stood a chance at re-election…then he made the Gettysburg Address—which was well written but didn’t do ANYTHING in terms of the war…it was however successful at creating a rallying cry for the North…and it was at that point that the Civil War became “the war against slavery”…the telling of the true turn of events and the true history of The War of Northern Aggression is hardly taught anywhere anymore…it is a revisionist version that is just a flat out fabrication. I was fortunate to have a very good education at my beloved Alma Mater, The Citadel…it was two of our cadets that fired the first hostile shots of the civil war when they fired on the “Star of The West”, which was a northern resupply ship sailing to Ft. Sumter…one of my professors went to VMI and is a huge Stonewall buff…I majored in this period of history…along with also concentrating on WWII, Hitler & National Socialism

I am a Virginia Military Institute (VMI) graduate. If Stonewall Jackson (once a superintendent at VMI) had not been accidentally shot by his own troops as he was riding solo who knows what might have happened - he was a better military leader than he was a professor of natural sciences (and often a victim of cadet pranks) who could have possibly broken Northern will.

I recollect with pride that we cadets were entitled to a rare military honor. We were permitted in formal parades and military assemblies to wear our winter overcoat uniform with the capes turned back over the shoulders to show the red inner liner. This was a military honor for the cadet blood spent in a won civil war military campaign. In that time our VMI brethren were forced to defend the Shenandoah Valley from the advancing Forces of Northern Aggression and their mercenaries at the Battle Of New Market. VMI cadets remain to his day the only still existing military institute on the planet (with the prior exception of the elite French Polytechnic Institute Ecole – which is now civilian and no longer a military institute) who have this singular military honor. Not even West Point is granted this honor since they have never fought in a military campaign as a military-unit as did VMI.

Our VMI cadets were a last ditch reserve force that were hastily pulled out of educational studies and fast-marched to New Market to try to stop the invading union army who had taken up a military position. The union cannon and rifle fire devastated the regular Confederate forces who had amassed to meet them head on.The young VMI cadets were put in as a desperate last hope though the the Confederate commander was reluctant to put them into such a high risk engagement. The VMI cadets (ages 15-21) fixed bayonets and charged straight into whithering cannon and rifle fire (losing their shoes in the muddy field as they charged); overrunning the cannons and sent the panicked and terrified union commander running as he left behind many of his men. VMI cadets routed them – taking many prisoners and captured most of the cannons. We lost 10 and 48 wounded and have honored them each year ever since in a special ceremony and parade on New Market Day (May 15, 1864). We recite the fallen names in front of the statue of Virginia Mourning Her Dead on campus (where the fallen cadets are interned to this day) and give a cannon salute from authentic Civil War era cannons.

VMI to this day is considered by many (except by some Citadel grads ) to be the most elite military college in the country. Unlike the US military academies VMI has never relaxed its high standards for integrity, honor, academics & physical demands - even our more recent female grads perform to substantially the same standards except for certain upper body strength tests. When I was there 40-55% of the original matriculating class dropped out by the time the class got to graduation - it was that tough and they told us every third person would be washed out in 4 years at a minimum.

When the first black cadet entered VMI in 1968 the popular legend (which I can’t verify) was that a Richmond reporter interviewed the black cadet. He asked him "Cadet, how do they treat you here at VMI? Do you get fair and equal treatment?" The black cadet thought about it a few moments then smiling broadly replied “Sir, it seems to me they treat both us black and white folk pretty much equally like we are all nigg**.*”


VMI - Winter Parade Overcoat with Capes Opened-Back

http://www.vmi.edu/assets/0/430/446/1289/407ac871-d9e3-40c2-a926-2cb9cb39150d.jpg
Virginia Mourning Her Dead

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

A lot of the pro-Union pro-federalist people in this thread seem to forget that the South had a very real reason to succeed. Put yourselves in the shoes of the average Southerner. Just 16 months before the South succeeded the abolitionists had already demonstrated that they had militants within their ranks who would use morality as a cover for inciting massive civil unrest and even murder to get their way.

Most historians agree that it was the Harper’s Ferry incident where the extremist John Brown lead the Pottawatomie Massacre that set in motion the Civil War. He woke up the average Southerner to their worst fears - a mounting fear of a massive slave uprising compliments of extremist abolitionists. This sort of militant abolitionist demanded action and did not care in the least what effect a sudden change in law would have on the South. To prove his point Brown murdered 7 pro-slave whites (including a free black man) in a “ends justifies the means” mentality and openly called for riots and insurrection. He deserved to be hanged for what he did.

This was the event that really shocked the South. The handwriting was on the wall - the South could no longer rely on slow political change since the militant abolitionists were independently declaring war and were hell bent on destroying the social order of the south and causing unrest. After Harper’s Ferry and Brown’s hanging, the South was now fighting for its life since it knew it was only a matter of time before the abolitionists would find sympathy to garner even greater numbers of militant liberals who would use murder and insurrection to justify their ends. The South knew that it would be impossible to rely on politics or Federal forces to control determined troublemakers who under a cover of morality would now not think twice at instigating massive social unrest and bloodshed. Many of the period liberal American writers of that day praised John Brown for his part in instigating the Civil War.

The average Southerner was a complete victim to the situation and had really almost no choice but to defend his homeland in a scenario that trapped everyone.

James

 

[DL82]

Every state and every culture has its good and bad sides. There is nothing wrong with being proud of where you come from and being a devout Catholic.

I am proud of my Scottish roots, and of the way that Scotland’s intellectual tradition produced much of the modern world, but I also can’t deny that that intellectual tradition includes the Reformation and the rejection of received notions of the Catholic faith. If I were to weigh up the morality of all the wars my country was involved in, as part of the British empire, I’d hate to think how that would look:blush:. I can be proud of my country while acknowledging its faults. I don’t see the problem.

In the same way, you love the values and independent mindset of the South, but that doesn’t mean that you have to accept slavery or believe that the Civil War was a just war. Every country and every culture needs good people who feel patriotic about where they are from, but who are also willing to say “if it happened again in my lifetime, I’d do differently”. Consider the martyrs, did they love their country any less for being willing to die rather than ‘go with the flow’ of their people’s errors? They loved their country all the more to be willing to die rather than see it fall into error.

 

[jrgiancola]

Let’s not forget also that following the war, Lincoln wanted to re-admit the southern states with an oath of allegiance to the United States. The radical republican congress, led by Thaddeus Stevens, wanted to punish the south. Nine years of “rape” committed on southern states by northerners, carpetbaggers, opportunists, called “reconstruction” has never been completely forgotten here and never will be.

 

[jrgiancola]

And let’s not forget that after the 13th Amendment was passed outlawing slavery, none of the abolitionists up north wanted anything to do with black people. They were obsessed with ending slavery; once they accomplished that, they said “to hell” with the blacks. Much the same as the pro-lifers do now; they’ll do anything to stop an abortion, but once the baby is born, they don’t care if the mother is able to raise it or not. And most of them are against social programs to assist poor families. “You better have your baby but, after that, don’t ask me for any help raising it. Go get a job!” Yah, right. What hypocrisy.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

I am a Virginia Military Institute (VMI) graduate. If Stonewall Jackson (once a superintendent at VMI) had not been accidentally shot by his own troops as he was riding solo who knows what might have happened - he was a better military leader than he was a professor of natural sciences (and often a victim of cadet pranks) who could have possibly broken Northern will.

He was one man. Being somewhat sickly, he may not have survived the privations of war. But, the country with the greatest industrial might usually wins the war.

As pointed out in “Battle Cry of Freedom”, Harvard students were still occupying their time in rowing competitions during the war. If the North even went all out, the South did not have a chance.

In all likelihood, slavery (yes, indefensible) would have ended very shortly even without the Civil War.

I think that is HIGHLY unlikely. Remember the question of slavery had been pending since before the Revolution. And pro and anti slavery folks had been killed in Kansas and the western regions for years before the war. So feelings had hardened.

Look at Brazil: With no war, in 1871 anyone born to slaves would be free at adulthood. In 1888 slaves were freed.

And let’s not forget that after the 13th Amendment was passed outlawing slavery, none of the abolitionists up north wanted anything to do with black people. They were obsessed with ending slavery; once they accomplished that, they said “to hell” with the blacks.

Wrong, actually. They formed the Freedmen’s Bureau which founded many schools and sent many missionaries to the south. Howard University and Hampton University (alma mater of Booker T. Washington) and many other institutions were founded by members of the Freedmen’s Bureau. At Howard in Washington, DC, there is still Freedmen’s Hospital.

The missionaries were mostly Northern Protestants, many of them Congregationalists.

freedmensbureau.com/

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think that is HIGHLY unlikely. Remember the question of slavery had been pending since before the Revolution. And pro and anti slavery folks had been killed in Kansas and the western regions for years before the war. So feelings had hardened.

Look at Brazil: With no war, in 1871 anyone born to slaves would be free at adulthood. In 1888 slaves were freed.

Slavery was in the U.S., as elsewhere, an economic thing. It paid. It is reasonable to believe that at the point where it no longer paid to keep slaves, people would no longer do it. Ultimately, in the U.S., it would not have paid. But the Civil War and emancipation occurred before then.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

Slavery was in the U.S., as elsewhere, an economic thing. It paid. It is reasonable to believe that at the point where it no longer paid to keep slaves, people would no longer do it. Ultimately, in the U.S., it would not have paid. But the Civil War and emancipation occurred before then.

It is well-known that people were charged with peonage in the US in the 20th century.

“Wall Street Journal bureau chief Blackmon gives a groundbreaking and disturbing account of a sordid chapter in American history—the lease (essentially the sale) of convicts to commercial interests between the end of the 19th century and well into the 20th. Usually, the criminal offense was loosely defined vagrancy or even changing employers without permission. The initial sentence was brutal enough; the actual penalty, reserved almost exclusively for black men, was a form of slavery in one of hundreds of forced labor camps operated by state and county governments, large corporations, small time entrepreneurs and provincial farmers. Into this history, Blackmon weaves the story of Green Cottenham, who was charged with riding a freight train without a ticket, in 1908 and was sentenced to three months of hard labor for Tennessee Coal, Iron & Railroad, a subsidiary of U.S. Steel. Cottenham’s sentence was extended an additional three months and six days because he was unable to pay fines then leveraged on criminals.”

amazon.com/Slavery-Another-Name-Re-Enslavement-Americans/dp/0385506252

“On February 9, 1927, the NAACP wrote a letter to the Department of Justice reporting that were in receipt of a letter charging that peonage practices were taking place in Attala County, Mississippi. Black people, as well as some white people were held in slavery and forced to work as free labor. They were forced to work as a sawmill and logging camp in Zama, Mississippi. In the letter it was stated that the same practices were taking place in Clarksdale, Mississippi. the hometown of Oscar-winning actor Morgan Freeman: A wealthy plantation owner by the name of J.W. Cutrer and Sheriff Glass at Clarksdale, Mississippi, are hold people enslaved on their plantations, " reads the letter.”

american-slavery.org/our_mission.html

 

[CentralFLJames]

And let’s not forget that after the 13th Amendment was passed outlawing slavery, none of the abolitionists up north wanted anything to do with black people. They were obsessed with ending slavery; once they accomplished that, they said “to hell” with the blacks. Much the same as the pro-lifers do now; they’ll do anything to stop an abortion, but once the baby is born, they don’t care if the mother is able to raise it or not… What hypocrisy.

There are very dangerous parallels here with the pro-life movement that I worry over. The same pattern is starting to emerge where militant moralists (mostly fundamentalist Christians) are trying to hijack the movement by murdering doctors in the same “ends justifies the means” mentality used by the civil war era extremist abolitionists.

As I see it - we are at this moment in the opening stages of de-facto civil and social war again. But now its not geographical - its all intertwined all over the nation (and the planet). We are in a battle for the soul of the country and are currently losing.

The secularists have made abortion into a major industry - promoting sex, condoms, and birth control pills (at a 10-20% failure rate - to insure the abortion and medical industry its vig) to keep people (including children) happy & content with the natural high of human hormone addictions. “The System” is feeding the abortion mill $400 per aborted baby’s-head for fast and easy money - The doctor gets his new BMW and vacation home in a endless supply of victims who fall into this trap. The system has “liberated women” so they now pay to get doped up on birth control pills (which also causes cancer) and tupped like cows by men who no longer have to pay for prostitutes (beer/drinks and dinner is the norm now) nor bother to get married. These then become the feeder stock for the abortion industry that queues them up like pregnant cows for “quick fixes”. After 6 weeks of healing they can re-engage their “boyfriends” and "lovers"and start it all over again - chances are good for repeat customer.

Is there any wonder why most younger man these days will laugh when you ask them why they are not married at age 30, 35, 40, 45 etc.? Marriage is becoming obsolete and most single young adults simply “shack up” in 2-5 year cycles of new sex-partners with “open relationships”. Caught cheating? Oh well - time to move on to the next lover who complains less. The game now is to move on to the next partner when its convenient or one becomes bored or too “high maintenance”-- except the men usually opt for the younger women as their sex partners age (creating a new class of socially marooned and displaced women - which is creating other social problems I won’t get into). The country is falling apart socially and morally at an alarming rate – and there is no end in sight as it escalates. It’s really getting bad “out there” and many singles are just looking for “fun and adventure” with no responsibilities…

Planned Parenthood is one of the most objectively evil “legal” institutions to ever gain widespread acceptance in a “civilized” country. I feel that its now inevitable that this conflict between the “culture of life” and the “culture of death” is going to explode & divide the country more than the civil war ever did. This is not a thing that can be politically compromised or stonewalled much longer. The experiment of a democracy and non-constitutional imposition of a “Separation of Church and State” has utterly FAILED. The Secular State has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a morally pluralistic democracy (with almost no common culture other than rank hedonism) can never be trusted to protect its most defenseless citizens. The Supreme Court has abused justice and created the worst social disaster (in its allowing Roe Vs. Wade) ever known in a “civilized” country. 50 million aborted babies is indicative of a terminally broken moral compass and a corrupted and politically compromised Supreme Court. If “we the people” don’t reform the country from the bottom up and take back our nation then God will turn us over to suffer the full brunt of our own disorders. This has been the pattern all through history and the USA is scarcely 200 years old.

We Catholics need to be careful that we don’t let the extremists hijack the pro-life movement and cause the Federal government to step in and start persecuting the states again nor try to control The Church. How ironic though that it took extremists to get the slaves freed - at the costs of massive loss of life and still trillions of dollars in social spending – with still no end in sight nor any realistic hope of a solution.

A democracy can NOT survive without a common moral base and a common educational level that is above the morality of animals and hedonists. And that’s the problem - our students now go to school to learn how to be good secularists and how to maximize personal freedom while shedding all notion of personal responsibility and self dignity. There is almost no concept anymore of community obligation and self-sacrifice. I no longer recognize America or my neighbors as the same nation & people I grew up in and with as a child. Everyone in the south used to be so congenial and now as others moved into the region here (FL) its becoming increasingly impersonal and indifferent. People don’t interact anymore - they leave voicemail and send emails and e-cards.

I feel that we have no choice now but to re-evangelize the nation and convert it back to Christianity; any by that I mean Catholicism. But that can not possibly happen under a divided Christian corpus. Catholicism must get out of its comfort zone and start leading the world by example or suffer severely with it. In actuality we are all going to suffer anyway - so lets suffer for the right things and the right causes.

Sorry to run so long.

James

 

[Ridgerunner]

It is well-known that people were charged with peonage in the US in the 20th century.

“Wall Street Journal bureau chief Blackmon gives a groundbreaking and disturbing account of a sordid chapter in American history—the lease (essentially the sale) of convicts to commercial interests between the end of the 19th century and well into the 20th. Usually, the criminal offense was loosely defined vagrancy or even changing employers without permission. The initial sentence was brutal enough; the actual penalty, reserved almost exclusively for black men, was a form of slavery in one of hundreds of forced labor camps operated by state and county governments, large corporations, small time entrepreneurs and provincial farmers. Into this history, Blackmon weaves the story of Green Cottenham, who was charged with riding a freight train without a ticket, in 1908 and was sentenced to three months of hard labor for Tennessee Coal, Iron & Railroad, a subsidiary of U.S. Steel. Cottenham’s sentence was extended an additional three months and six days because he was unable to pay fines then leveraged on criminals.”

amazon.com/Slavery-Another-Name-Re-Enslavement-Americans/dp/0385506252

“On February 9, 1927, the NAACP wrote a letter to the Department of Justice reporting that were in receipt of a letter charging that peonage practices were taking place in Attala County, Mississippi. Black people, as well as some white people were held in slavery and forced to work as free labor. They were forced to work as a sawmill and logging camp in Zama, Mississippi. In the letter it was stated that the same practices were taking place in Clarksdale, Mississippi. the hometown of Oscar-winning actor Morgan Freeman: A wealthy plantation owner by the name of J.W. Cutrer and Sheriff Glass at Clarksdale, Mississippi, are hold people enslaved on their plantations, " reads the letter.”

american-slavery.org/our_mission.html

“Peonage” as you describe it, was undoubtedly less expensive than was slavery. Slaves were very expensive (adjusted for inflation). These prisoners required no capital investment at all. The same was true of some immigrants, whose employment was cheaper than slavery, when capital investment in the latter is considered.

I would not argue against the proposition that black freedmen were often poorly paid. But others were as well. One of my own great-grandfathers came to this country speaking no English. As an Italian, he was on the very low end of the social scale. The only work he could get was working in deep coal mines, which were nightmarish in every way. He did remark that while there were blacks living in the community, none would take the kind of work he, and other immigrants who could not speak English, had no choice but to take. Deaths and maimings in the deep mines were frequent, and one might question whether,prior to the Civil War, any slaveowner would have risked his slaves in that environment. But lose a free, but hired Italian? There were more where he came from.

 

[o_mlly]

I’m proud of my southern heritage and I’m a fan of state rights. Unfortunately state rights justified slavery I of course disagree with slavery. I know the constitution says we the people have the right to stand up and defeat the government if it no longer represents the people. This in my opinion is what the south was fighting for. And this is what I’m proud of as a southerner. But I’m also a devout catholic there’s not anything wrong with that is it?

Nothing wrong with being anti-slavery, pro states rights and devoutly Catholic.

 

[BouncingBall]

The secularists have made abortion into a major industry - promoting sex, condoms, and birth control pills (at a 10-20% failure rate - to insure the abortion and medical industry its vig) to keep people (including children) happy & content with the natural high of human hormone addictions. “The System” is feeding the abortion mill $400 per aborted baby’s-head for fast and easy money - The doctor gets his new BMW and vacation home in a endless supply of victims who fall into this trap. The system has “liberated women” so they now pay to get doped up on birth control pills (which also causes cancer) and tupped like cows by men who no longer have to pay for prostitutes (beer/drinks and dinner is the norm now) nor bother to get married. These then become the feeder stock for the abortion industry that queues them up like pregnant cows for “quick fixes”. After 6 weeks of healing they can re-engage their “boyfriends” and "lovers"and start it all over again - chances are good for repeat customer.

Is there any wonder why most younger man these days will laugh when you ask them why they are not married at age 30, 35, 40, 45 etc.? Marriage is becoming obsolete and most single young adults simply “shack up” in 2-5 year cycles of new sex-partners with “open relationships”. Caught cheating? Oh well - time to move on to the next lover who complains less. The game now is to move on to the next partner when its convenient or one becomes bored or too “high maintenance”-- except the men usually opt for the younger women as their sex partners age (creating a new class of socially marooned and displaced women - which is creating other social problems I won’t get into). The country is falling apart socially and morally at an alarming rate – and there is no end in sight as it escalates. It’s really getting bad “out there” and many singles are just looking for “fun and adventure” with no responsibilities…

Planned Parenthood is one of the most objectively evil “legal” institutions to ever gain widespread acceptance in a “civilized” country. I feel that its now inevitable that this conflict between the “culture of life” and the “culture of death” is going to explode & divide the country more than the civil war ever did. This is not a thing that can be politically compromised or stonewalled much longer. The experiment of a democracy and non-constitutional imposition of a “Separation of Church and State” has utterly FAILED. The Secular State has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a morally pluralistic democracy (with almost no common culture other than rank hedonism) can never be trusted to protect its most defenseless citizens. The Supreme Court has abused justice and created the worst social disaster (in its allowing Roe Vs. Wade) ever known in a “civilized” country. 50 million aborted babies is indicative of a terminally broken moral compass and a corrupted and politically compromised Supreme Court. If “we the people” don’t reform the country from the bottom up and take back our nation then God will turn us over to suffer the full brunt of our own disorders. This has been the pattern all through history and the USA is scarcely 200 years old.

A resounding “Amen!”

I no longer recognize America or my neighbors as the same nation & people I grew up in and with as a child. Everyone in the south used to be so congenial and now as others moved into the region here (FL) its becoming increasingly impersonal and indifferent. People don’t interact anymore - they leave voicemail and send emails and e-cards.

What are you, 90? Do you mean that more minorities have immigrated to your neighborhood, blasting loud rap music in their cars and wearing jeans around their kneecaps? Well have I got news for you! If you think it’s unrecognizable now… I’m a Gen-Xer who hasn’t seen any kids ride a Big Wheel these days. Doesn’t mean the world is ending. It’s just changing. I remember writing letters and putting them in the mail. Sometimes it would take a month to get a reply if I didn’t just phone them first. Is it me or are you online to make comment here in the first place (smile).

I feel that we have no choice now but to re-evangelize the nation and convert it back to Christianity; any by that I mean Catholicism. But that can not possibly happen under a divided Christian corpus. Catholicism must get out of its comfort zone and start leading the world by example or suffer severely with it. In actuality we are all going to suffer anyway - so lets suffer for the right things and the right causes.

By that, do you mean a theocracy, like in most Muslim states? Or just the citizenry?

Back to the subject of this thread, however:
I was watching a standup comic discuss the Civil War last night and he raised a very good question: if you in the South had all these slaves (didn’t someone say here that slaves outnumbered Whites?) and citizens who knew the geographical lay of their land (thereby giving them an advantage), then why did you lose the war?

 

[CentralFLJames]

What are you, 90? Do you mean that more minorities have immigrated to your neighborhood, blasting loud rap music in their cars and wearing jeans around their kneecaps? Well have I got news for you! If you think it’s unrecognizable now… I’m a Gen-Xer who hasn’t seen any kids ride a Big Wheel these days. Doesn’t mean the world is ending. It’s just changing. I remember writing letters and putting them in the mail. Sometimes it would take a month to get a reply if I didn’t just phone them first. Is it me or are you online to make comment here in the first place (smile).

No, I didn’t mention a thing about minorities. The concept you seem to be unable to grasp - is that its NOT racial its SOCIAL and CLASS (and gross lack of in the yonger generations). And what I am describing are people who relocated from the North to the South who brought their social disorders from their culture down to the South and are trying to remake the South into the image of what they fled from in the first place (big government, social programs, taxation, and hand outs).

By that, do you mean a theocracy, like in most Muslim states? Or just the citizenry?

By that I mean a dual seated government where there is a secular leadership (a quasi-democratically elected body) and a religious seat that is entirely congenial to Rome. It’s inevitable that this happen at some time in the future. In fact I expect the entire North, Central and South Americas to be one Nation with a federation of Christian states operating to a subsidiary principal within a few generations. What we have now is NOT sustainable. Once a Democracy can vote to raid the piggy bank and victimize a class people to pay for the others Democracies always fail. In case you didn’t notice it - we ARE bankrupt and can no longer expand GDP fast enough to service the debt. It’s going to escalate now. It’s time to pay the piper and we can expect economic triage and major cut backs on services and quality of service. Are you old enough to remember what happened when the lights went out in NYC? Did you see what happened in New Orleans when Katrina hit? No one is really reporting the numbers murdered and the amount of goods stolen - it was mob rule and anarchy with police stealing side by side with the regular criminals. We are not as civilized as we imagine my friend.

Back to the subject of this thread, however:
I was watching a standup comic discuss the Civil War last night and he raised a very good question: if you in the South had all these slaves (didn’t someone say here that slaves outnumbered Whites?) and citizens who knew the geographical lay of their land (thereby giving them an advantage), then why did you lose the war?

Stand up comedians are a sad lot. The country is tired of cheap laughs using vulgar comedic lines and the standard fare of mocking the church or authority. And so thees sort have had to resort to the old formula of making people laugh at them as the court jesters of yore used to do. And this clown & his audience clearly does not have a clue about the principals of warfare if he thinks that familiarity of turf is a principal advantage in war that uses scorched earth tactics to annihilate enemies and reduce them to rank poverty. The South surrendered because it had honor. It could have sent in small units of men to burn nothern cities and cause mayhem. But it did not. The South also did not want the average Southern civilian to suffer when the North brought the war into civil population of the large cities (e.g. Atlanta). The South by and large confronted the Northern forces of aggression musket-to-musket, face-to-face in large and bloody skirmishes. If it had adapted a guerrilla tactic and shot only officers and leadership as did the dishonorable American Revolutionary Army then the South could have outlasted Lincoln and turned the populace against the war. All democracies are intrinsically selfish, fickle and will always vote their own current personal interests, comforts and pocketbooks.

There is an old saying:
“A democracy cannot fight a Seven Years War.” – General George Catlett Marshall (VMI alumni class of 1901)

And there is another saying"
“Culture can not be transmit to those who did not build it”.

This country is held together with the bale wire and duct-tape of government spending programs rather than by the solid mortar of common cultural underpinnings and values. We are now in delamination and have to reform the country or suffer the rabble until a new Spartacus rises up to get us all off the sharecropper system that the banks and politicians have set up.

James

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

The South surrendered because it had honor. It could have sent in small units of men to burn nothern cities and cause mayhem. But it did not.

The South surrendered because it had been bested in armed conflict and was experiencing massive desertions from the ranks of common soldiers. Let’s not mythologize things here.

Small bands which robbed Northern communities? Well, think of the Youngers, the James brothers and Quantrill. They all were guerrilla terrorists who fought for the South.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The South surrendered because it had been bested in armed conflict and was experiencing massive desertions from the ranks of common soldiers. Let’s not mythologize things here.

Small bands which robbed Northern communities? Well, think of the Youngers, the James brothers and Quantrill. They all were guerrilla terrorists who fought for the South.

“Bested” by the union’s stooping to the level of destroying civilian infrastructure (the entire city of Atlanta) and killing and displacing large numbers of civilians while making it impossible for the South to even feed itself by destroying transportation infrastructure and food production. Again, the South never used this kind of tactic and instead choose to conduct warfare away from civil populations. The South did not fight to annihilate but only to defend. A guerrilla warfare campaign could have easily brought the union to its knees if the confederate forces elected to selectively attack transportation, banks and food distribution warehouses. This sort of tactic however would have been unconscionable for the South.

The men you mention were independent rogues and we could easily say they were a direct counter force to similar groups sympathetic to the Union. The Jayhawkers were in place well in advance of the Civil War and were a rouge group of militant guerrilla abolitionists. Quantrill fought these militant abolitionists groups various times.

There are historians who believe that some senators from the federal government were involved with secret funding of John Brown in his quest to arm the blacks and incite armed slave insurrection in the South. If he had not been caught by the common citizens at the federal armory he was trying to loot and captured God knows what would have happened had he armed the blacks. He intended to form a new “negro nation” and like a modern day Spartacus sweep through the South and progressively build a black army from freed slaves to take over the South and sue for a new land grant for his new black nation. Ironically - this would have been the best solution at the time if the Federal Gov had proposed an orderly transition to something like this (just as it had done with the native Indians). In retrospect the fledgling country was a victim of its unbridled freedoms. Wealthy men from the north were secretly funding militant groups to do whatever they fancied. We can assume that there was a lot of illegal contraband and profiteering in arms and material trading from opportunists from both sides.

How ironic that the first person to die in the pre-Civil war was a free black man porter (Hayward Shepherd) shot dead by militant abolitionists (John Brown). He was killed as he tried to warn the white passangers on the train of the raid Brown was attempted in his mission to steal weapons.

“What a county”.

James

 

[Odell]

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My point is, there is a cognitive dissonance for me when a Roman says that they’re a proud Confederate. To me, that’s like the sun rising in the West. Why? Because to me the RCC is the epitome and fountain of morals and is the only True Church.

I stand by what I said about Arinze. I think his ascension would be cognitive dissonance for some people, including Catholics. And, I left this thread alone for some time (if you scroll up, anyone can see that I bowed out on a charitable note) but when I saw that recent post, well, I had to say somethin.’

When you’ve been on the business end of racism, it’s quite hard to rationalize and moralize the Stars And Bars.

Peace to you, Michaeldaniels. And to that other person who lives “Below The Mason Dixon Line”.

How do you feel about someone who is a proud american and a proud Catholic? I also am a proud american as well as a proud confederate. I see no contradiction do you? I can see how you feel about the flag it is unfortunate that racist fly it as well. That is why I like the bonnie blue flag it was a pre civil war flag. The single white star represents your state coming out of the union out of the american flag. Its a state rights flag and does not carry the racist output that the rebel flag does. I also like the Papal flag but the flag does not represent my vies on state rights so therefore I have both. Tell me what you think?

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

“Bested” by the union’s stooping to the level of destroying civilian infrastructure (the entire city of Atlanta) and killing and displacing large numbers of civilians while making it impossible for the South to even feed itself by destroying transportation infrastructure and food production.

Now, of course, it would have different if the South invaded the North? What about the massacre at Fort Pillow? Was that Southern chivalry at its best?

Domestic industry wins wars.

Stop mythologizing the ‘Lost Cause’.

The South did not fight to annihilate but only to defend. A guerrilla warfare campaign could have easily brought the union to its knees if the confederate forces elected to selectively attack transportation, banks and food distribution warehouses. This sort of tactic however would have been unconscionable for the South.

Actually this is not true. The South did attack Northern supply trains. Research Mosby. And it would have done*** anything*** which would have brought the North ‘to its knees’. Folks were annihilated at Fort Pillow, remember?

The men you mention were independent rogues and we could easily say they were a direct counter force to similar groups sympathetic to the Union. The Jayhawkers were in place well in advance of the Civil War and were a rouge group of militant guerrilla abolitionists. Quantrill fought these militant abolitionists groups various times.

They were part of and acknowledged to be Southern soldiers. They also committed murder and mayhem but, according to historians, seldom rape.

 

[BouncingBall]

How do you feel about someone who is a proud american and a proud Catholic? I also am a proud american as well as a proud confederate. I see no contradiction do you? I can see how you feel about the flag it is unfortunate that racist fly it as well. That is why I like the bonnie blue flag it was a pre civil war flag. The single white star represents your state coming out of the union out of the american flag. Its a state rights flag and does not carry the racist output that the rebel flag does. I also like the Papal flag but the flag does not represent my vies on state rights so therefore I have both. Tell me what you think?

Hi Odell! Hope you’re having a good day today!

The Vatican doesn’t have slaves. The Vatican has nothing to do with states’ rights. The Pope has no political power in the US, just a diplomatic relationship. Also, the Church is a spiritual kingdom while the US is a political and earthly one. I can render unto Caesar and to God; but you would have me render unto two different Caesars (American and Confederate). To me, that is the difference between the comparisons you put forth.

To each his own (it’s a free country) but the math doesn’t add up:

1. US is one nation
2. South secedes
3. North and South fight
4. North wins (or South surrenders, whichever you want to call it)
5. US reunited as one nation

Seems a bit like being a Redskins fan, then the Redskins lose to Dallas. But since they’re both NFC teams, you root for a Cowboys player during the Pro Bowl.

I will never root for the Dallas Cowboys or any of their players.

But yes, the Rebel Flag (the one the racists like to fly) represents nothing good to me because I’m not a WASP. Even though the other flag designs also represent the Confederate, I found myself feeling 99.9% less hostile inside when looking at them.