C
cheeto1
Guest
Is there a right time to use violence for defense and would Jesus
do it if in that situation?
do it if in that situation?
- Status
D
Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Jesus is God. God in the OT used violence to defend Isreal and to conqur the holy land. Jesus will use violence in the book of Revelations. So, yes Jesus will use violence when it is in accord with his will.
C
clmowry
Guest
And then there was that episode with the money changers.
C
cheeto1
Guest
What I’m really getting at is that Jesus was crucified
as His disciples looked on (or ran away, etc). What would
He do if it was His disciples who were crucified while He was
with them? Would He have defended them with violence?
as His disciples looked on (or ran away, etc). What would
He do if it was His disciples who were crucified while He was
with them? Would He have defended them with violence?
T
Todd_Easton
Guest
The Lord was not above temporarily muting those who questioned Him, as He did with Zechariah in Luke 1:20, nor was He above temporarily blinding in His opponents, as He did with Saul in Acts 9:8 and with Bar-Jesus, the Jewish magician who posed as a prophet, in Acts 13:4-12.
T
Todd_Easton
Guest
Actually, Jesus did protect His disciples but without violence:
12While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)
T
trogiah
Guest
No. Absolutely not. Jesus not only predicted his own crucifixion and accepted it but he told his disciples they should expect the same. THough they probably didn’t understand him when he said it.
Jesus said “Do not fear those who destroy the body but have no power over the soul”
Those who would “take up their cross and follow Jesus” need to accept, as part of the package, the possibility that they will meet an end like Jesus did.
This does not take away the right or the responsibility of defending innocent life from unjust aggressors, by any means a person may have.
It means that a person who has committed themself to following Jesus should not expect others to excercise that right and responsibility to help them if they should come under persecution because they are a disciple of Jesus.
peace
Jim
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Matthew 26:47 As he yet spoke, behold Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the ancients of the people. 48 And he that betrayed him, gave them a sign, saying: Whomsoever I shall kiss, that is he, hold him fast. 49 And forthwith coming to Jesus, he said: Hail, Rabbi. And he kissed him. 50 And Jesus said to him: Friend, whereto art thou come? Then they came up, and laid hands on Jesus, and held him.
51 And behold one of them that were with Jesus, stretching forth his hand, drew out his sword: and striking the servant of the high priest, cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. **53 Thinkest thou that I cannot ask my Father, and he will give me presently more than twelve legions of angels? **54 How then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that so it must be done? 55 In that same hour Jesus said to the multitudes: You are come out as it were to a robber with swords and clubs to apprehend me. I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you laid not hands on me.
56 Now all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then the disciples all leaving him, fled
I doubt they realized just how close they all came to extinction…and neither do we.
N
NiceFundamental
Guest
This question bothers me. I believe because it has a presumption that things that happen to us on this world are so important…important enough to involke violence. I believe not. Jesus told us to turn the other check. In the Old Testament there was violence. Would Jesus use violence, I think not. He doesn’t need to. If he wanted whatever stopped, all he would need to do is will it.
B
Blackbog
Guest
The Catechism goes on to quote Aquinas:
St. Thomas Aquinas:
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello cheeto1,
If you had to choose between the most physically violent death in existance or Jesus binding you to sin on judgement day, which would you choose? I think basic Christian doctrine would tell you that you must have all your sins forgiven by Jesus to go to heaven. If Jesus binds you to even one sin you suffer eternal death. Jesus gave His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors that whom ever they call upon Him to bind to sin on earth, He will bind that culprit to sin in heaven.
Time and time again Old Testament scriptures use the terminology to “cut off” meaning to be put to death. Stonings were described as cutting evil culprits off from the body of the Church.
Jesus tells His Church that any one who leads the least of children away from Him that it would be better if that culprit had a mill stone tied around his neck and drown in depths of the sea. Jesus tells His Church that if her hand is her undoing, she is to “cut it off” and cast it into Gehhena. When Apostolic Successors call upon Jesus to bind a man to sin in heaven they are, in deed, cutting off a portion of the body of the Church and casting it into Gehenna.
Jesus has armed Apostolic Successors with the deadly weapon known to man which is the “Keys to the Kingdom”, the sword of Christ’s mouth, the power to call upon Jesus to bind culprits to sin in heaven. Apostolic Successors are to wield Christ’s sword upon the foe to protect His Bride the Church (Christ’s flock) on earth. Better for the body of the Church to enter into life missing some limbs that to have the whole body of the Church pulled into damnation.
Please visit Anathema newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm
Please visit Throwing Stones
NAB MAT 16:13
Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
**NAB REV 1:16 **
A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”
**NAB ISA 11:4 **The Rule of Immanuel
At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” NAB MAT 5:22
What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna. NAB MAT 18:17
“If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”
continued:
If you had to choose between the most physically violent death in existance or Jesus binding you to sin on judgement day, which would you choose? I think basic Christian doctrine would tell you that you must have all your sins forgiven by Jesus to go to heaven. If Jesus binds you to even one sin you suffer eternal death. Jesus gave His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors that whom ever they call upon Him to bind to sin on earth, He will bind that culprit to sin in heaven.
Time and time again Old Testament scriptures use the terminology to “cut off” meaning to be put to death. Stonings were described as cutting evil culprits off from the body of the Church.
Jesus tells His Church that any one who leads the least of children away from Him that it would be better if that culprit had a mill stone tied around his neck and drown in depths of the sea. Jesus tells His Church that if her hand is her undoing, she is to “cut it off” and cast it into Gehhena. When Apostolic Successors call upon Jesus to bind a man to sin in heaven they are, in deed, cutting off a portion of the body of the Church and casting it into Gehenna.
Jesus has armed Apostolic Successors with the deadly weapon known to man which is the “Keys to the Kingdom”, the sword of Christ’s mouth, the power to call upon Jesus to bind culprits to sin in heaven. Apostolic Successors are to wield Christ’s sword upon the foe to protect His Bride the Church (Christ’s flock) on earth. Better for the body of the Church to enter into life missing some limbs that to have the whole body of the Church pulled into damnation.
Please visit Anathema newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm
Please visit Throwing Stones
NAB MAT 16:13
Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
**NAB REV 1:16 **
A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”
**NAB ISA 11:4 **The Rule of Immanuel
He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.
**NAB JOH 20:20 **At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” NAB MAT 5:22
What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna. NAB MAT 18:17
“If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”
continued:
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
To “cut off” a portion of the body of people means to put someone to death. Moses “cut off” people from the body of the Church by stoning them to death. By giving Apostalic Successors the power to call upon Jesus to bind sin in heaven and on earth, Jesus stepped up “cutting off” to the level of spiritual death.
NAB LEV 20 Penalties for Various Sins.
The LORD said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him. I myself will turn against such a man and cut him off from the body of his people: for in giving his offspring to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name."NAB NUM 15:30
“But anyone who sins defiantly, whether he be a native or and alien, insults the LORD, and shall be cut off from among his people. Since he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken his commandment, he must be cut off. He has only himself to blame.” The Sabbath-breaker. While the Israelites were in the desert,** a man was discovered gathering wood on the sabbath day**. Those who caught him at it brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly. But they kept him in custody, for there was no clear decision as to what should be done with him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "This man shall be put to death; let the whole community stone him outside the camp." So the whole community led him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
NAB MAT 18:5 "Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. **On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be **drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.
**NIV EXO 31:14 **
“Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people .’”
Anathema
In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”
He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.
Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm
NAB LEV 20 Penalties for Various Sins.
The LORD said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him. I myself will turn against such a man and cut him off from the body of his people: for in giving his offspring to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name."NAB NUM 15:30
“But anyone who sins defiantly, whether he be a native or and alien, insults the LORD, and shall be cut off from among his people. Since he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken his commandment, he must be cut off. He has only himself to blame.” The Sabbath-breaker. While the Israelites were in the desert,** a man was discovered gathering wood on the sabbath day**. Those who caught him at it brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly. But they kept him in custody, for there was no clear decision as to what should be done with him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "This man shall be put to death; let the whole community stone him outside the camp." So the whole community led him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
NAB MAT 18:5 "Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. **On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be **drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.
**NIV EXO 31:14 **
“Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people .’”
Anathema
In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”
He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.
Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm
C
cheeto1
Guest
That’s right, He would just will it, I knew that. He just hasn’t
given the average person any example to go by in the way of
violence since His family and apostles weren’t physically
threatened in His presence. Turning the other cheek is O.K.
for us, but do we save others with violence? If not, then why
do we call the police or have an army? How far does God want
us to go in defending others from violence?
N
Nicene
Guest
Jam 4:17: Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
A man breaks into your house and you find him raping your mother/daughter/wife…
Fulfil the teaching above, what would you do?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
A man breaks into your house and you find him raping your mother/daughter/wife…
Fulfil the teaching above, what would you do?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
H
hurst
Guest
Perhaps this will help:
Q. 816. Why are we advised to bear wrong patiently and to forgive all injuries?
A. We are advised to bear wrongs patiently and to forgive all injuries, because, being Christians, we should imitate the example of Our Divine Lord, who endured wrongs patiently and who not only pardoned but prayed for those who injured Him.
Q. 817. If, then, it be a Christian virtue to forgive all injuries, why do Christians establish courts and prisons to punish wrongdoers?
A. Christians establish courts and prisons to punish wrongdoers, because the preservation of lawful authority, good order in society, the protection of others, and sometimes even the good of the guilty one himself, require that crimes be justly punished. As God Himself punishes crime and as lawful authority comes from Him, such authority has the right to punish, though individuals should forgive the injuries done to themselves personally.
Baltimore Catechism
ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-19.htm
Furthermore,
Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. 2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation. 3 For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God’s minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. 5 Wherefore be subject of necessity, not only for wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.
6 For therefore also you pay tribute. For they are the ministers of God, serving unto this purpose. 7 Render therefore to all men their dues. Tribute, to whom tribute is due: custom, to whom custom: fear, to whom fear: honour, to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another. For he that loveth his neighbour, hath fulfilled the law.
hurst
C
cheeto1
Guest
Nicene said:
This is my exact question. It’s an emergency, and seems to call
for violence. What would Jesus do? What does He want us to do?
It would be better to know ahead of time, before an emergency
happens, what God would have us do about it, than to wait until
we are faced with it. Then if He wants us to use violence, we are
prepared ahead of time, and if He doesn’t, we are also prepared.
T
Todd_Easton
Guest
Jesus said:
8And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. (Matthew 18:8-9)
Would it not be an act of charity to likewise maim or blind our neighbor, if necessary, to prevent him from sinning and ending up in hell?
Jesus also said:
6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. (Matthew 18:6)
Does this not imply that even killing someone, if necessary, is better than letting him cause a little one to sin?
8And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. (Matthew 18:8-9)
Would it not be an act of charity to likewise maim or blind our neighbor, if necessary, to prevent him from sinning and ending up in hell?
Jesus also said:
6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. (Matthew 18:6)
Does this not imply that even killing someone, if necessary, is better than letting him cause a little one to sin?
W
wcknight
Guest
Todd Easton:
We do NOT have the right to decide for anyone else what is right or what is wrong for them (expect maybe for our own children and even then there are limits).
Marvin Gaye’s father shot him, in the mistaken notion that he could save his son from committing more sins. His father later shot himself.
Yes, Marvin was probably leading a wild and carzy life, but by killing him, his father may have prevented Marvin from repenting on his own. In trying to save his son, he may have been condemning him instead.
The evils that the father committed (murder and suicide) far exceeded the sins that his son was guilty of.
Violence and murder are wrong, and sin is wrong, two negative actions do not add up to somehing positive. The only time anyone can use force is to defend an innocent 3rd party, and even then it should be measured and reasonable relative to the threat.
We can not be judge, jury, and executioner no matter how good we may think our motives are.
We are required to admonish the sinner, not maim, injure or murder them.
That is pretty dangerous thinking. When anyone tries to decide what is right for someone else, we are in danger of making judgements that can only be done by God.
We do NOT have the right to decide for anyone else what is right or what is wrong for them (expect maybe for our own children and even then there are limits).
Marvin Gaye’s father shot him, in the mistaken notion that he could save his son from committing more sins. His father later shot himself.
Yes, Marvin was probably leading a wild and carzy life, but by killing him, his father may have prevented Marvin from repenting on his own. In trying to save his son, he may have been condemning him instead.
The evils that the father committed (murder and suicide) far exceeded the sins that his son was guilty of.
Violence and murder are wrong, and sin is wrong, two negative actions do not add up to somehing positive. The only time anyone can use force is to defend an innocent 3rd party, and even then it should be measured and reasonable relative to the threat.
We can not be judge, jury, and executioner no matter how good we may think our motives are.
We are required to admonish the sinner, not maim, injure or murder them.
C
cheeto1
Guest
But isn’t there ever a time when it’s an emergency, and
admonishing isn’t enough?
J
JOHNYJ
Guest
Regretfuly some christians would turn christianity into a SUICIDE PACT . It is not and never has been.
Legitimate self defense has always been a christian belief.
Legitimate self defense has always been a christian belief.
- Status