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SVP
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Yeah! Why didn’t the men of Sodom and Gomorrha just rape the young virgin girls tossed to them by the brave men of the house? God certainly wouldn’t have punished them for a little thing like that!
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jean8
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theistgal,Ryan, I agree with you - anyone who says you “choose” to be gay is simply wrong. AND - they’re ignoring what the Church teaches!
The Church specifically says that you are not sinning simply by “being” gay. The sin is having sexual relations - with anyone, male or female - out of wedlock. Period.
And as to the OP’s question, I’d welcome any baby, gay, straight or somewhere in between!
And what church teaches this?
Are you saying gay marriage is acceptablre to God? What scripture?
The spin your trying so desperatly to convey is, a person is born gay. What scripture?
We are made in the image of God. Then God has given us the right to chose how to live. He doesn’t drag anyone into heaven kicking and screaming.
Rom.5:1"Therefore since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Are you a Christian?
jean8
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theistgal
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Um - the Catholic Church, in the Catechism:
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
No, I am not. I specifically said - as does the Catechism - that homosexuals are called to chastity - as are all unmarried people, both gay and straight. I did not say anything about “gay marriage”.
Yes. I’m the kind of Christian who tries to find out how the Church interprets the Scriptures, rather than trying to draw my own (possibly incorrect) conclusions from them (aka “sola Scriptura”).The spin your trying so desperatly to convey is, a person is born gay. What scripture?
We are made in the image of God. Then God has given us the right to chose how to live. He doesn’t drag anyone into heaven kicking and screaming.
Rom.5:1"Therefore since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Are you a Christian?
jean8
What kind of Christian are you?
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maggiemay2u
Guest
I’m sooooo glad you came up with these links. As I was reading the posts, especially those from our brothers and sisters who struggle with homosexuality, I remembered reading about the phenomenon of aborting homosexual babies.
Women and girls are seduced by a secular society into believing abortion as a matter of convenience is acceptable, even desirable. One should not be burdened with the rigors of child rearing unless fully comfortable in doing so. Rearing a child knowing he or she could be the object of ridicule or hardship, seems to fit nicely in the criteria. We’ve heard many times “*nobody would choose *to be gay”. Nobody would choose to be deformed, retarded, blind or deaf from birth, either, but these are all seen as defects, in a secular world, that a mother would reasonably not want to face, and so, abort her child.
I find the question compelling. I hope all of our politically correct and expedient brethren will search their hearts to see that the denial of the right to life for anyone, is wrong.
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RyanML
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What if the two angels had appeared as women and all the men of Sodom were beating down the door wanting to gang rape the women? Could we say that they were destroyed for sexual immorality and perversion? Ofcourse! But that would say nothing about the morality of sexual expression between a man and a woman who are in love and who made a life long covenant with each other. In the same way, one can not use the Sodom story as a basis to condemn love between two gay people. And what about Lot? He certainly wasn’t very moral offering his two daughters for the mob to do with them whatever they wanted. Why didn’t God destroy him for immorality? We can not read the Scriptures like fundamentalist protestants. We have to take into account the social and historical contexts of the times these stories were written in to truly understand their meanings and lessons.
In Christ,
Ryan
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Jennifer123
Guest
There is no love in gay sex. I’m sorry, but it is not true, authentic love. Yes, we could say it is true of versions of hetero sex, but the truth remains. Homosexual sex is not one of love.
True about Lot, but he was being hospitable. The fact remains that the men rejected Lot’s hospitality and demanded homosexual sex over heterosexual sex, and it was this behavior that set off destruction of Sodom. Please read:
catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp
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RyanML
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I’m sorry, but i must completely disagree. It’s just not true. Are you suggesting that two people can only truly love each other if they are capable of having babies? I sure hope not!
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burnside
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It is the sexual gratification that makes homosexuality wrong,just like when heterosexuals use birth control rather than self control.That also applies to masturbation.O.K.it is difficult to deal with homosexual orientation,but it is also very difficult for people who have alcoholism.They are tormented by the fact that they cannot live up to the Church’s Teaching about drunkenness.
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Jennifer123
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No - but it is this response that shows me, in all charity, that your knowledge of Church teaching on this subject is deficient.
Please read 11 Church teachings on homosexuality:
couragerc.net/PIPElevenChurchTeachings.html
But I’ll try to paraphrase.
God created sex for two purposes - to unite man and woman, and to create life from that union. Take away either component, through lust, adultery, prostitution, etc., and the sexual activity is limiting and negative because we were only made for those two components. Anything less separates ourselves from God’s grace and limits who we are made to be in Christ.
The Church says homosexual activity is morally wrong is because it causes real harm. To act on these disordered feelings is to cause profound emptiness.
Please read the articles and try to learn more about what the Church teaches and why she teaches it.
“Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.” Matt 11:28-30
God Bless
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RyanML
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I have spent many years studying the issue and i can assure you that I understand the Church’s teaching on why homosexuality is wrong. I simply can not agree.
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RyanML
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Perhaps I have not made myself very clear. I am not talking about homosexual activity. I am talking about homosexual love. There’s a big difference. Two people of the same sex can be in love and share a life together supporting each emotionally, spiritually, financially, etc. without having sex, even if they are sexually attracted to each other. It might surprise you, but there are many Christian/Catholic gay and lesbian couples who are in intimate relationships but for their own personal reasons, refrain from expressing that intimacy sexually. If your only experience of gay folks is the sex-addicted, promiscuous stereotype, i’m sorry. But there are a lot of us out there with much different experiences and world views. Not all of us are out there to push an “agenda” on everybody. If you want to think that homosexuality in disordered or immoral then that’s certainly your right. And as Catholics on different sides of the issue it should, in all charity, be discussed. But when I see real life couples who show in their lives an example of Christ’s love that I don’t see in many so called “Christians” I start to wonder if there isn’t something lacking in some of this abstract moral theology. Sorry to vent, but I get tired of being stereotyped as pushing an agenda or being a moral deviant spreading disease and fighting to destroy marriage and the family just because i am gay and happy to be so:banghead:
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Jennifer123
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This doesn’t surprise me in the least. This is what the church asks of all of us - chastity, and sometimes abstinence for some - which can be especially difficult for those who bear burdens of a sexual nature. But it is in carrying this burden and living as the Church teaches which gives us the greatest freedom.
I’m sorry that I have misunderstood you, but yes, we can have love in many ways, agape, philia, and eros. But we are more than our sexual natures and I am extremely hesitant to label people by their sexual preference. Homosexuals can love each other, but it is no different than anyone else who have love of a philia nature for anyone else.
It is not my only experience but it is a stereotype for a reason. The homosexual lifestyle is predominately associated with these behaviors precisely because of its disordered nature.
I believe it is disordered because it is against the natural law. The Church has shown why it is disordered. This issue affects me personally so yes, I am aware of the struggles the homosexual community faces and empathize completely. I believe what the Church teaches about charity to those affected by the homosexual inclination wholeheartedly.
But I can not ignore that yes, there is an agenda which you yourself may not be pushing, but it exists and it is harmful to society at large, not to mention the homosexuals themselves that struggle with their orientation.
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RyanML
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I very much appreciate your honest and charitable responses.
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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
Ryan, you believe that the Church is right about the claim of “there is a God” and the claim that Jesus Christ is the Son of God but also a man and rose from the dead, right? If you believe that the Church could be right about those HUGE tenets of faith, then how do you think the Church could be wrong about homosexuality? Either the Church is protected against teaching error in ALL areas of faith and morals or it is not. And if it is not, then how can we be sure about anything the Church teaches?
In Christ,
Rand
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Rand_Al_Thor
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That sounds to me like friendship. Obviously the Church does not forbid people from having close friendships. However, being in an “intimate relationship” with someone of the same sex could most certainly be placing those involved in a near occasion of sin, which would more wisely be avoided.
You are certainly correct that just having same sex attraction is not a sin and there are many Catholics and other Christians who are attracted to members of the same sex. The sin is in sexual relations between two people of the same sex, as you know.
In Christ,
Rand
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RyanML
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I believe the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. But I also believe the Church continues to develope in her understanding of what the Spirit reveals. As 1 Corinthians 13:12 says, “we see through a glass, though dimly”. As far as the issues of the existence of God or whether or not Jesus is the Risen Messiah, I do not believe these things just because the Church teaches they are true. I went through a period when I fell away from my faith and was basically agnostic. But through my studies of history, science, and Scripture as well as my own personal experience, I came back to my faith. It was actually the first time I could say that I was actually convicted of the truth of these things rather than just to say they are true because the Church says they are true. God bless!
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sanctamaria17
Guest
To Ryan: if you’re not having premarital sex, you’re not sinning. God bless you and thanks for your honesty!
Second, seriously? Can we find something other than sexuality to get hung up on? Yes, call a sin a sin (which premarital sex of any kind is) but straight people are just as capable of becoming promiscuous, molesting kids, watching porn, etc. And not all people with homosexual tendencies do that. Actually, most that I do know (and I go to a very liberal school and know a lot of people with homosexual tendencies) don’t. Also, I find something more sinful about aborting babies, multinationals stealing resources from poor countries, gang raping women and giving them HIV, killing women in “crimes of honor”, depriving children of care because their parents are poor, and standing idly by while the poor continue to suffer every day no matter how hard they work, their race, or what country they live in. We’re too willing to criticize our politicians for allowing abortion, but we don’t condemn big (U.S.) businesses for allowing and encouraging sweatshop labor and slavery else where? It’s still immoral, still abuse. This is the social justice forum, yet I haven’t seen anything really on that issue except for abortion. There are other issues too! And they’re all symptoms of the same sin, which is selfishness. Why isn’t anyone saying anything?
Second, seriously? Can we find something other than sexuality to get hung up on? Yes, call a sin a sin (which premarital sex of any kind is) but straight people are just as capable of becoming promiscuous, molesting kids, watching porn, etc. And not all people with homosexual tendencies do that. Actually, most that I do know (and I go to a very liberal school and know a lot of people with homosexual tendencies) don’t. Also, I find something more sinful about aborting babies, multinationals stealing resources from poor countries, gang raping women and giving them HIV, killing women in “crimes of honor”, depriving children of care because their parents are poor, and standing idly by while the poor continue to suffer every day no matter how hard they work, their race, or what country they live in. We’re too willing to criticize our politicians for allowing abortion, but we don’t condemn big (U.S.) businesses for allowing and encouraging sweatshop labor and slavery else where? It’s still immoral, still abuse. This is the social justice forum, yet I haven’t seen anything really on that issue except for abortion. There are other issues too! And they’re all symptoms of the same sin, which is selfishness. Why isn’t anyone saying anything?
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fix
Guest
Why try and change the issue? The thread is about abortion and “gay” babies.
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Jennifer123
Guest
While I too praise him for his honesty and charitableness, he may be in danger of promoting scandal by advocating, openly and apparently with full knowledge, something of a grave matter. I worry about this and him. This is a serious matter, one that concerns salvation.
The sanctity of life is the cornerstone upon which all justice is built. We can agree on ending poverty, ending sweatshop labor, we can agree on ending so many injustices of the world, but unfortunately we disagree on how to end these injustices.
However, the issue of abortion remains, and there is only one way to stop this injustice. End it. Unfortunately, many people who are preoccupied with these other injustices fail to see that they are caused by the same idea that begats all other injustice. The lack of recognition of our basic human dignity.
If we can not protect the lives of the most innocent among us, being killed right under our noses, than whose life is worth saving? How can we possibly even think of ending all the injustices of the world if we can’t agree on our basic human dignity?
Just my thoughts - this thread was hijacked a while ago, me being complicit in it.
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