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KateKimmer
Guest
it is ALREADY like that. People believe what they want or don’t believe what they want.
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jochoa
Guest
Interesting story. Here are my thoughts:
If no one believed anything, then everyone would know everything. Although there is no loss of peace in knowing everything, there is no joy - The true purpose for life, just as your professor stated, “He just wants to be happy.”
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vera_dicere
Guest
Even if we could manage a society that doesn’t become completely ransaked by some corrput power seeking maniac, I think everything would be very, very boring, and probably very backwards.
It was the Church that kept reason alive during the dark ages. Monks saving books, keeping languages alive and ticking. A lot of science today has stemmed from priests and monks seeking God through understanding of the world around them.
If they believed in nothing, why bother seeking anything, physical or theological truth?
We’d probably all be scratchign around in the dirt ignorning ourselves and others.
It was the Church that kept reason alive during the dark ages. Monks saving books, keeping languages alive and ticking. A lot of science today has stemmed from priests and monks seeking God through understanding of the world around them.
If they believed in nothing, why bother seeking anything, physical or theological truth?
We’d probably all be scratchign around in the dirt ignorning ourselves and others.
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Gaber
Guest
So, I would assume from your statement you are omiscient and know that neither you nor God is happy?
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Gaber
Guest
When you say “It was the Church that kept reason alive during the dark ages. Monks saving books, keeping languages alive and ticking.,” you are, are you not, refering to a small cadre of Spanish monks in Ireland and not the Church as an institution, yes? If you say “no,” we many of us will say “These thoughts are for a niever man, no? Perhaps you uploaded some wrong information and didn’t have room for the apps regarding a better understanding of history and thus missed the meeting on current agreements about that?”
And “a lot” doesn’t nearly even a little bit approach all, as significant as that bit might be. And that “keeping alive,” imho, only speaks to what one had to do to get an education during the time of Church rule in Europe. It also doesn’t address, oh, say, the Antikythera device, or other ancient mysteries that predate priests and the Church, which went about burning not only libraries, but the works of it’s own doctor, St; Teresa of Avila, and discouraging others. So while what you say may have some merit, it needs to be in som context other than straight piety, yes?
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jochoa
Guest
First, please recognize that when I quoted the professor, I was using happiness as a feeling greater than contentment. Second, please consider the following:
Although I am not omniscient, God, as the first co-existing person, the Father, of the Holy Trinity is.
And I am getting to know Him by doing the following three things:
- Wanting everyone to be able to experience happiness (contentment to intense joy) without ever losing any peace (freedom from disturbance).
- Setting out to master being unconditionally patient and kind so that my relationships and self may experience happiness without losing any peace. Patience and kindness in the face of impatience and meanness is the major growth factor.
- Find the solution to the following problem:
Given ALL the following:
-You, as a thinking, feeling, acting, living being exist in solitude (Hint: Think of yourself existing as a single-celled being, similar to how you first came to be).
-There is nothing else in existence.
-The only method to create something, living or non-living, is to first think of it in full detail.
-You want to experience limitless happiness without ever losing peace.
How do you make that happen? I recommend first thinking about what are the requirements, then try to figure out how to make those happen individually.
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Gaber
Guest
Sure. Ther are several states beyond contentment.
Second, please consider the following:
Although I am not omniscient, God, as the first co-existing person, the Father, of the Holy Trinity is.
And I am getting to know Him by doing the following three things:
- Wanting everyone to be able to experience happiness (contentment to intense joy) without ever losing any peace (freedom from disturbance).
- Setting out to master being unconditionally patient and kind so that my relationships and self may experience happiness without losing any peace. Patience and kindness in the face of impatience and meanness is the major growth factor.
- Find the solution to the following problem:
Given ALL the following:
-You, as a thinking, feeling, acting, living being exist in solitude (Hint: Think of yourself existing as a single-celled being, similar to how you first came to be).
-There is nothing else in existence.
-The only method to create something, living or non-living, is to first think of it in full detail.
-You want to experience limitless happiness without ever losing peace.
How do you make that happen? I recommend first thinking about what are the requirements, then try to figure out how to make those happen individually. Yes. That is all beleif. If you can get past it, you can see that you already always are what you think you are working for. Only all your lif you have been taught to use the obstacle as a means of overcoming itself.
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jochoa
Guest
Unfortunately, you are too wise for me, for I am not understanding you.Yes. That is all beleif. If you can get past it, you can see that you already always are what you think you are working for. Only all your lif you have been taught to use the obstacle as a means of overcoming itself.
Regarding: “That is all belief.”
What are beliefs?
In the method I propose of getting to know God, there are no beliefs. The one concept which seems as though it is a belief, is existing in solitude, however, Catholicism has known this for more than a thousand years. It is all logical/reasonable and founded on what works.
What am I to get past?
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Gaber
Guest
Wise is relative, especially “too.”
A belief is any qualification or paradigm that is thinkable, because it is less than omniscience. In other words, anything we hold to be “true” is partial and has not a 1/1 correspomdance to Reality, only our infinitesimal projected perception of a part of it.
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jochoa
Guest
Thank you very much for further explanation! Please consider the following: Since getting to know God through the means presented, all the “beliefs” of Catholicism are revealed as corresponding 1/1 to Reality, does this mean they were never beliefs because they were always Truth?
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TEPO
Guest
If no one believed in anything we would be animals who act on instinct only… Just go to the zoo and visit the primate section and there you’ll find your answer.
Hooh, hooh, hoooh; hah, hah…!
Hooh, hooh, hoooh; hah, hah…!
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presidentjlh
Guest
If no one believed in anything, nothing would separate us from the other mammals. Belief…thought…is what separates us and is a result of our special place as given by God.
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Gaber
Guest
Yes, but it is an iterim condition that can be got past even on Earth, that being the point of having beliefs in the first place: to get past them.
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TEPO
Guest
Are you trying to say that having beliefs is temporary, and that at some point -humanity will lose this ability…?
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Gaber
Guest
Why are you viewing beliefs the way you are? Because fo some belief? Do you not prefer knowing, even intellectually, to believing? Any beleif is temporary, up to the point it is replaced by one more congruent with Reality or by knowledge. The most insiduous beliefs are the ones framed by the subject/object nature of common state of human awareness. That can be overcome even now with some work, belief or no belief. So while belief itself as a medium of ad hoc hypotheses may always be useful, the sooner we grow out of belief being our primary mode of encountering Reality, the better, yes? And whatever humanity does as a whole, which will be to grow in or lose awareness, any individual can always, if they wish, go past belief of any kind and to the degree they wish to accomplish. If that wasn’t so, we would neither have the Saints and Sages of the Ages, nor good science.
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TEPO
Guest
Belief is a natural human instinct equal to our human instinct to influence…
Examples:
– we’re told by science that global warming is true because polar ice caps are melting. But I’ve never been to the north pole and have witnessed no ice melt there.
– I’ve been told by my television that there is a holy war in the middle east. But I’ve never been to the middle east.
So can you see why belief is important as well as the constant tendency to influence… Without belief, I should theoretically not believe any news or science.
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Gaber
Guest
Well, I personally think of belief as higher than instinct. I wouldn’t put such a thing on the level of a more animal like state of awareness.
And perhaps I’d go more with a word like “trust” then “belief” in the instances you cite. “Belief” is a condition where one takes a paradigm to be real, or an idea to be real, either through misperception, incomplete knowledge, or, as I think is most common, inculcation by force of culture from family on up to worldviews held by groups. That might include both religion and science, as both are lacking in completion. And as they are, they can’t complete each other. they hardly complement each other. They are both, as you might see one day, very mechanistic and materialist com[pared to a higher or deeper understanding of the relationship of the human expereince to Reality, or God. In the instances you mention above, we do trust that reportage is in some way and to some degree accurate. But we still don’t have a complete expereince, other than maybe computinjg from an accepted premise that seems useful until something more accurate comes along.
So there is nothing necessarily intrindically wrong with belief or trust, only that we have to know that what we belive is a working hypothesis regarding an impression, not an exact 1/1 mental correspondence with Reality itself. In short, the world is our projection given our limited span of awareness regarding it. That is why it is recommended to go beyond the discursive mind so we experientially know what we are dealing with as a mental instrument.
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presidentjlh
Guest
But is not that within itself a belief? Isn’t all knowledge in the end a belief, albeit a belief we have 100% faith in?
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Gaber
Guest
It can be a belief until expereinced. Knowledge your part in Creation is rltive and relatively useful, of course! But is “I” a belief? “Me,” or person, cannot be anything else but a beleif, yoour story to yourself of who you “are.” But that which you call “I” cannot be. Look into what that “I” is.
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