Would like Catholic perspective on ABC's of Salvation

[benhur]

Yes, it’s possible. But one does not NEED a one-time special encounter. We encounter Christ and renew our promises to Him on a DAILY basis (as scripture says we must), if not more often, and in person with Him on a weekly, at least, basis in Mass where He is present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist.

People may refer to an event as being “born-again,” but that is not what Our Lord meant by being born anothen.

Hi FKB. That is a critical point, what are the differences of regeneration/born again ? It also deals a bit with our view of the depravity or not so depraved nature of man . Can the flesh please God ? Can the flesh “believe” ? Can the flesh profess faith in Christ ? While P’s may struggle with "born of water " I think others struggle with “born of the spirit”. As you are concerned with meeting salvation requirement of baptism, Tommy rightly mentioned my sentiments in being concerned with actually having this new life. Like one feels that the baptism will take care of that while others say if it doesn’t always then what ? Like the OT rite of circumcision got you in the covenant but did not automatically effectually make you born of the spirit. That Jesus had to constantly say this ( ye must be born in the spirit) to a nation of circumcised people suggests this. We are not talking about a process (though we can), which any life is, including spiritual, but the beginning of life where once there was none.

 

[Tommy999]

Hi Tommy, just wanted to say that I appreciate you inquiries and the questions that you ask and the way you ask them. I am a convert from the Southern Baptist persuasion all though not a in the pew type. Parents did not see the importance of being in church every Sunday. I am sure they had their reasons and issues that they had to deal with.

The great thing about the questioning that you are doing is that you get to learn things that you may or may not have known before or that you are learning things that displace many falsehoods that you may have heard regarding the Catholic Church. The additional benefit is that there are most likely many lurkers who are just observing and are also learning in the process.

Archbishop Fulton Sheen said that not one hundred people hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly believe what the Catholic Church is.

As a convert I myself had to overcome a lot of falsehoods taught to me by the SB community.

But on to a lighter note, I am attaching a true story that happened to my Mother and I one morning at Mass. She is a SB and had never been to a Catholic Church.

Peace

Wmscott,
That was a funny story about the rattlesnake. I’ll keep an eye out for that, too

 

[wmscott]

If salvation is a process, that really goes to the last breath, per CC, the real question is why get baptized or what does baptism signify ? I would imagine with your definition of salvation, baptism is indeed a part of a protestant. The “confessing with your mouth” is what is done in Baptism,amongst other things. So not to speak for the post starter but baptism plays apart for sure.

Baptism is an integeral part of Salvation, Please take the time to read post #6. I think this will answer your questions.

And yes, Salvation is a process, one that must be worked on every day. It is not a one-time event. The Catholic Church recognizes this. The Catholic Christian answers this question in three stages or levels corresponding to the three meanings the words “saved” and “salvation” has in the Bible:
(Taken from several documents here at CAF and other sources)

•Catholic Christians can respond that they have been saved. This acknowledges the first meaning of “saved” and “salvation” in scripture–Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation we are objectively saved–He died, rose from the dead, saved them from sin.
–2 Cor 5:17 So whoever is in Christ is a new creation

•Catholic Christians can also respond that they are being saved. This acknowledges the second meaning “saved” and “salvation” have in scripture–the present experience, God’s power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin.
–1 Cor 15:2 Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

•CatholicChristians also respond that they will be saved, that they have hope and confidence that God will give them the grace of perseverance; that they will respond to it; and accept his gift of salvation until their death. This acknowledges the third meaning the words “saved” and “salvation” have in scripture–the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ.
–Rom 5:9 How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.

PAST EVENT (I HAVE BEEN SAVED)
• Rom 8:24 - for in hope we were saved.
• Eph 2:5, 8 - by grace you have been saved through faith
• 2Tim 1;9 - He saved us, called us according to his grace.
• Tit 3:5 - He saved us through bath of rebirth, renewal by Holy Spirit.
• 2 Cor 5:17 - So whoever is in Christ is a new creation

PRESENT PROCESS (I AM BEING SAVED)
• Phil 2;12 - work out your salvation with fear and trembling
• 1Pet 1:9 - as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation
• 2 Pet 2:20-21 - righteous can fall
• Heb 6:4-8 - believers can apostatize, be damned
• Heb 10:26-29 - those sanctified who sin can still be damned
• 1 Cor 15:2 -Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved

FUTURE EVENT (I WILL BE SAVED)
• Mt 10:22 - he who endures to the end will be saved
• Mt 24:1 - he who perseveres to the end will be saved
• Mk 8:35 - whoever loses his life for my sake will save it
• Acts 15:11 - we shall be saved through the grace of Jesus
• Rom 5:9-10 - since we are justified, we shall be saved
• Rom 13:11 - salvation is nearer now than first believed
• Cor 3:15 - he shall be saved, but only as through fire
• 1Cor 5:5 - deliver man to Satan so his spirit may be saved
• Heb 9:28 - Jesus will appear second time, to bring salvation
• Heb 4:1 - fear of failing to reach salvation

I hope this helps, I provided al the Sriptural references since most Protestants want to know where the Bible says that.

 

[SteveVH]

Baptism is an integeral part of Salvation, Please take the time to read post #6. I think this will answer your questions.

And yes, Salvation is a process, one that must be worked on every day. It is not a one-time event. The Catholic Church recognizes this. The Catholic Christian answers this question in three stages or levels corresponding to the three meanings the words “saved” and “salvation” has in the Bible:
(Taken from several documents here at CAF and other sources)

•Catholic Christians can respond that they have been saved. This acknowledges the first meaning of “saved” and “salvation” in scripture–Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation we are objectively saved–He died, rose from the dead, saved them from sin.
–2 Cor 5:17 So whoever is in Christ is a new creation

•Catholic Christians can also respond that they are being saved. This acknowledges the second meaning “saved” and “salvation” have in scripture–the present experience, God’s power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin.
–1 Cor 15:2 Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

•CatholicChristians also respond that they will be saved, that they have hope and confidence that God will give them the grace of perseverance; that they will respond to it; and accept his gift of salvation until their death. This acknowledges the third meaning the words “saved” and “salvation” have in scripture–the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ.
–Rom 5:9 How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.

PAST EVENT (I HAVE BEEN SAVED)
• Rom 8:24 - for in hope we were saved.
• Eph 2:5, 8 - by grace you have been saved through faith
• 2Tim 1;9 - He saved us, called us according to his grace.
• Tit 3:5 - He saved us through bath of rebirth, renewal by Holy Spirit.
• 2 Cor 5:17 - So whoever is in Christ is a new creation

PRESENT PROCESS (I AM BEING SAVED)
• Phil 2;12 - work out your salvation with fear and trembling
• 1Pet 1:9 - as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation
• 2 Pet 2:20-21 - righteous can fall
• Heb 6:4-8 - believers can apostatize, be damned
• Heb 10:26-29 - those sanctified who sin can still be damned
• 1 Cor 15:2 -Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved

FUTURE EVENT (I WILL BE SAVED)
• Mt 10:22 - he who endures to the end will be saved
• Mt 24:1 - he who perseveres to the end will be saved
• Mk 8:35 - whoever loses his life for my sake will save it
• Acts 15:11 - we shall be saved through the grace of Jesus
• Rom 5:9-10 - since we are justified, we shall be saved
• Rom 13:11 - salvation is nearer now than first believed
• Cor 3:15 - he shall be saved, but only as through fire
• 1Cor 5:5 - deliver man to Satan so his spirit may be saved
• Heb 9:28 - Jesus will appear second time, to bring salvation
• Heb 4:1 - fear of failing to reach salvation

I hope this helps, I provided al the Sriptural references since most Protestants want to know where the Bible says that.

Excellent!

 

[Tommy999]

Baptism is an integeral part of Salvation, Please take the time to read post #6. I think this will answer your questions.

And yes, Salvation is a process, one that must be worked on every day. It is not a one-time event. The Catholic Church recognizes this. The Catholic Christian answers this question in three stages or levels corresponding to the three meanings the words “saved” and “salvation” has in the Bible:
(Taken from several documents here at CAF and other sources)

•Catholic Christians can respond that they have been saved. This acknowledges the first meaning of “saved” and “salvation” in scripture–Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation we are objectively saved–He died, rose from the dead, saved them from sin.
–2 Cor 5:17 So whoever is in Christ is a new creation

•Catholic Christians can also respond that they are being saved. This acknowledges the second meaning “saved” and “salvation” have in scripture–the present experience, God’s power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin.
–1 Cor 15:2 Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

•CatholicChristians also respond that they will be saved, that they have hope and confidence that God will give them the grace of perseverance; that they will respond to it; and accept his gift of salvation until their death. This acknowledges the third meaning the words “saved” and “salvation” have in scripture–the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ.
–Rom 5:9 How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.

PAST EVENT (I HAVE BEEN SAVED)
• Rom 8:24 - for in hope we were saved.
• Eph 2:5, 8 - by grace you have been saved through faith
• 2Tim 1;9 - He saved us, called us according to his grace.
• Tit 3:5 - He saved us through bath of rebirth, renewal by Holy Spirit.
• 2 Cor 5:17 - So whoever is in Christ is a new creation

PRESENT PROCESS (I AM BEING SAVED)
• Phil 2;12 - work out your salvation with fear and trembling
• 1Pet 1:9 - as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation
• 2 Pet 2:20-21 - righteous can fall
• Heb 6:4-8 - believers can apostatize, be damned
• Heb 10:26-29 - those sanctified who sin can still be damned
• 1 Cor 15:2 -Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved

FUTURE EVENT (I WILL BE SAVED)
• Mt 10:22 - he who endures to the end will be saved
• Mt 24:1 - he who perseveres to the end will be saved
• Mk 8:35 - whoever loses his life for my sake will save it
• Acts 15:11 - we shall be saved through the grace of Jesus
• Rom 5:9-10 - since we are justified, we shall be saved
• Rom 13:11 - salvation is nearer now than first believed
• Cor 3:15 - he shall be saved, but only as through fire
• 1Cor 5:5 - deliver man to Satan so his spirit may be saved
• Heb 9:28 - Jesus will appear second time, to bring salvation
• Heb 4:1 - fear of failing to reach salvation

I hope this helps, I provided al the Sriptural references since most Protestants want to know where the Bible says that.

The only difference I see with my faith tradition is that the (I HAVE BEEN SAVED) part comes from accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior through the things listed in post #1. In my analogy, it’s like a guy drowning in the middle of the ocean who is thrown a lifesaver. Once he grabs it, he can say he is “saved” but he is not out of the water yet. He can choose to let go and swim away if he wants.
The (I AM BEING SAVED) part is the act of him being pulled into the lifeboat. That equates to living for Christ and living out your salvation with fear and trembling as the scripture you listed indicates, confessing your sins, etc, and fighting the good fight. However, you can always choose to let go or change your mind and swim away. Christ doesn’t have you in a headlock.

The (I AM SAVED) part is when you are pulled into the boat which equates to arriving in heaven. It is only then when you can say for sure that you have definitely been saved.

That is how I understand it, anyway.

 

[sallybutler]

Your thread title allowed me to realize why I have a problem with this approach to salvation. It reminds me of the song title ‘ABC, Easy as 1 2 3’. It always seemed a rather simplistic approach to being a Christian.

Yes, most of the pamphlets on this state that these steps are just the beginning, you need to find a church (they don’t usually recommend the Catholic church) get baptized, study the Word.

Being saved may be easy. Staying saved, not so much. It is a lifetime commitment of God to us and of us to God. The emphasis seems to be less on our commitment to God. It always seems to be a footnote.

 

[Tommy999]

Your thread title allowed me to realize why I have a problem with this approach to salvation. It reminds me of the song title ‘ABC, Easy as 1 2 3’. It always seemed a rather simplistic approach to being a Christian.

Yes, most of the pamphlets on this state that these steps are just the beginning, you need to find a church (they don’t usually recommend the Catholic church) get baptized, study the Word.

Being saved may be easy. Staying saved, not so much. It is a lifetime commitment of God to us and of us to God. The emphasis seems to be less on our commitment to God. It always seems to be a footnote.

Good points, Sally. I agree with you totally that our faith is a lifetime commitment and not just a one-time deal. That is one reason why I don’t subscribe to the Once-Saved-Always-Saved belief that some denominations (one in particular that is really big on it) do. It is a lifeling commitment in which we are called to " …press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus". Phil 3:14.

 

[wmscott]

The only difference I see with my faith tradition is that the (I HAVE BEEN SAVED) part comes from accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior through the things listed in post #1. In my analogy, it’s like a guy drowning in the middle of the ocean who is thrown a lifesaver. Once he grabs it, he can say he is “saved” but he is not out of the water yet. He can choose to let go and swim away if he wants.
The (I AM BEING SAVED) part is the act of him being pulled into the lifeboat. That equates to living for Christ and living out your salvation with fear and trembling as the scripture you listed indicates, confessing your sins, etc, and fighting the good fight. However, you can always choose to let go or change your mind and swim away. Christ doesn’t have you in a headlock.

The (I AM SAVED) part is when you are pulled into the boat which equates to arriving in heaven. It is only then when you can say for sure that you have definitely been saved.

That is how I understand it, anyway.

While I can understand your analogy, I am having a small issue with the culmination of it. Because we are sinners, and will always be sinners, we have to believe all of the three beliefs of being saved as previously posted. The last analogy of “The (I AM SAVED) part is when you are pulled into the boat which equates to arriving in heaven” to me is premature. While we can be confident of what scripture tells us, because we do sin and depending on the state of our soul when we die and the gravity of our sins at the time, we do not know if we made it or not until we stand before God and are judged. I am not trying to be argumentative just reflecting, I am by no means an expert theologian.

 

[Tommy999]

… I am by no means an expert theologian.

Neither am I, wmscott. I like your honesty and humility plus your sense of humor (the rattlesnake story). I think I will remember that when the offering is passed Saturday night when I visit the local Catholic Church. Maybe that will help me not be so tense.

 

[wmscott]

Neither am I, wmscott. I like your honesty and humility plus your sense of humor (the rattlesnake story). I think I will remember that when the offering is passed Saturday night when I visit the local Catholic Church. Maybe that will help me not be so tense.

Thanks Tommy, and when you do go to Mass there is no need to be tense, it is a Christian religion with a different format than what you are used to.

As a note, there is standing and kneeling that goes on. At the kneeling parts feel free and comfortable to sit. If there is some one behind you just sit a little forward in your seat so that the person behind you has a little room to kneel. Know that Catholics view going to Mass as approaching the throne of God. The Mass is where we believe Heaven meets earth. That Christ is ever present in the Tabernacle, which is why you will see reverence to it. He is also among us as well, you know the “Where two or more are gathered in His name” verse.

Some things to watch for: the Mass is in two parts, the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Mass may start with the sprinkling of Holy water on the congregation, this is in remembrance of our Baptism, and there may also be incense used.

Throughout the Mass you will notice that there are times when the Priest will make a proclamation or prayer and the congregation with provide a response.

During the Liturgy of the Word you will hear two Psalms (usually sung), and an Old Testament reading, a New Testament reading, and a Gospel reading. It is followed up by the homily and profession of Faith, the Nicene Creed. Then the collection, please smile as you think of the story I told you.

At the Liturgy of the Eucharist there are prayers and responses along with the possibility of ringing of bells. The bells signify that something very important is happening as the Priest is in the process of having the miracle of God working through him to transform the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

The Our Father may end a little different than what you are used to. At the last part (and deliver us form evil) the Priest says a doxology where by the “For the kingdom, the power, and glory are your’s forever and ever Amen” is then recited.

Then Communion starts; if you are adventures enough you can go up with your arms crossed with palms on each shoulder and the Priest will give you a blessing. I know that you have heard that you should not take communion, it is not that we want to withhold it from you out of malice because you are not Catholic, it is out of respect to you for a couple of reasons. First is that if you are taking communion you are stating that you believe in all that the Catholic Church teaches and stands for, you stand united with the CC. the second and most important is out of great concern for your soul. Catholics believe that Jesus is fully present to us in the Eucharist body, blood soul, and divinity. Talk about a personal relationship with Christ, taking Jesus into us body, blood soul, and divinity every time we participate in the Eucharist. That said out of concern for your soul, the following is take very seriously.

1 Cor 11:23-29

For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

With all this said I hope that this will help ease your tension to relax and enjoy the Mass. know that you are in the presence of the Lord and bask in it.

Just take it all in and next week ask any questions that you may have from this experience.

Peace.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, Tommy, looking forward to your visit to the Catholic Mass. Please share with us your experience.

Our main vocation in life is to enter into communion with the Holy Trinity. We are obligated to go to Mass every Sunday, the greatest feast in the Church – ordinary Sunday, not Easter or Christmas. Our vocation in life is holiness. The sacraments heal and nurture us through life.

Our second vocation in to serve the poor in spiritual and corporal works of mercy.

The Church law is essentially to attend Sunday Mass and observe Lenten practices. We don’t really have much rules. We don’t tithe. We give freely going back to the ancient practice when only the rich supported the poor and they alone would decide how much to give freely, not the Church.

The work of the Church as a whole is to reconcile sinners back to God and to make present in today the sacrifice of the Lord’s Blood for our salvation.