Would like Feeback re: Definition of Church

[JRKH]

Below are some observations that I would like feedback on.
This grew out of the various discussions we have here about the definition of “Church” in the NT.
It has been my contention that Mt 16: 18-19, Mt 18: 15-18 and Acts 15:1-29 give a clear line of logic regarding Church Authority AND how the Apostles exercised that Authority where difficult questions arose.

It appears that the term “Body of Believers” CAN reasonably be substituted in many cases. As it can also be substituted for “saints”. However there are notable exceptions.
One thing of note is the fact that Paul uses the terms “Church” and “saints” almost equally and twice he uses them together in the same verse.

The Term “Church” appears 76 times in the NT but
only Twice in the Gospels.
Both times in Matthew and in both cases it is associated with authority – Binding and loosing, Keys of the kingdom etc.

In most cases of the Pauline Epistles “Body of believers” certainly could be substituted for the term Church, but Paul also uses the term “saints”.
Paul uses the term “Church” 46 times.
Paul uses the term “Saints” 41 times.

What is even more interesting is that, the term “saint” and “Church” appear together in 2 verses of Paul’s Epistles and both in a similar context.

1Co 1:2 -
To the Church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

2Co 1:1 -
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the Church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:

If Church simply means “Body of believers” why this distinction?
Later Paul says this:

1Co 14:35
If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in Church.

How does “Church” here fit with the idea/translation of “Body of believers”? Under this definition, a woman would never be allowed to speak at all.

Col 1:25 -
Of this Church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,

Would it have been proper for this “community of believers” to reject Paul in favor of another “minister”? Or was Paul a minister (Priest) of the One Church and thus with authority over the Colossians for the preaching of the Gospel?

1Ti 3:15 –
but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

If the assembly of believers is taken here is repetitious. For What difference would there be between the Body of Believers and “The household of God”

Heb 12:23 -
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Why is general assembly and Church separated here? Isn’t the letter to ALL the faithful?

I do not wish to imply that the terms Church and “Body of believers” is mutually exlusive, with one indicating authority and the other not. Only that it appears that Paul and the Apostles did not always think in term of the terms being interchangable.

One other thing that occurs to me in this regard is that, if the “Church” is made up of the followers of Christ, why the term Church in the first place? Why not Disciples? That is what they are called in the Gospels?

I’m just trying to get a clearer understanding.
Any Comments or additional (name removed by moderator)ut is welcome.

Peace
James

 

[NotWorthy]

I want to take some time to think on this (and maybe bump it up ). And of course, tag it for tracking later on.

Thanks for the post.

 

[JRKH]

I want to take some time to think on this (and maybe bump it up ). And of course, tag it for tracking later on.

Thanks for the post.

Thanks. I look forward to any (name removed by moderator)ut you might have.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

No one has a comment? Maybe I should have posted it in the non-catholics section.

Maybe I should narrow things down a bit.

Let’s look at Pauls writings where he uses the term Church 46 times and saints 41 times and twice he uses Church and saints in the same verse.

Who/What did Paul mean when he said Saint?
Who/what did he mean when he said Church?

Peace
James

 

[bullfrog654]

dont no what the bible means to much but when i use church i mean every religious church in the world seldom but at times on the internet

when i say saint it corisponds to who the pope recognises as a saint

 

[NotWorthy]

dont no what the bible means to much but when i use church i mean every religious church in the world seldom but at times on the internet

when i say saint it corisponds to who the pope recognises as a saint

Hmmmm, these two statements almost completely disagree with one another.

 

[NotWorthy]

No one has a comment? Maybe I should have posted it in the non-catholics section.

Maybe I should narrow things down a bit.

Let’s look at Pauls writings where he uses the term Church 46 times and saints 41 times and twice he uses Church and saints in the same verse.

Who/What did Paul mean when he said Saint?
Who/what did he mean when he said Church?

Peace
James

From what I understand, Paul claimed that saints were those who were baptized and hadn’t fallen away from the faithful. He seemed to (at least in my opinion) reserve this term for those who he was happy with - i.e. the Phillipians, the Ephesians - and refrained from using it when chastising his children, such as the Corinthians.

But I may be way off base on that thought.

P.S. Sorry, I haven’t come back to this thread earlier, but two others train wrecks are occupying my time, sadly.

 

[bullfrog654]

i see no contridiction in my statements, however my definition of church might not be the same as others so you might use as an example as the vatican however i look beyond and recognise the vatican makes mountains out of mole hills and has so much power in faith that it reaches all religious churchs even on the internet (some) but because of pride it doesnt talk about it.

this is my belife in being a proad catholic may i ask how it contridicts

 

[NotWorthy]

i see no contridiction in my statements, however my definition of church might not be the same as others so you might use as an example as the vatican however i look beyond and recognise the vatican makes mountains out of mole hills and has so much power in faith that it reaches all religious churchs even on the internet (some) but because of pride it doesnt talk about it.

this is my belife in being a proad catholic may i ask how it contridicts

If the Church is every religion on earth, then the Church doesn’t hold too much what the Pope teaches. Only the Catholic branch of The Church holds to the Pope.

 

[bullfrog654]

i sort of understand i believe the pope is similar to the president a society figure. i also realize that your local church or religion tries to stay or sustain from the ‘power’ role in society leaving the government in the eyes of the public but being a source of regular guidence within many parts of global government. segregated religions are perhaps seeking different goals once there reached you may find one religion. sustaining from religious war they become seperated but never under estemate the power of religion and their true leaders unity. there is to a fare degree a religious unity though i suppose it could spread fear in the general public that of which governments hide from the public

 

[NotWorthy]

i sort of understand i believe the pope is similar to the president a society figure. i also realize that your local church or religion tries to stay or sustain from the ‘power’ role in society leaving the government in the eyes of the public but being a source of regular guidence within many parts of global government. segregated religions are perhaps seeking different goals once there reached you may find one religion. sustaining from religious war they become seperated but never under estemate the power of religion and their true leaders unity. there is to a fare degree a religious unity though i suppose it could spread fear in the general public that of which governments hide from the public

The “power role” of the Pope? The pope privately guides the secual governments behind the scenes? Looking at the decisions and laws made in the last 50 years, I’d like to ask where there is any evidence in the Pope’s guidance.

And what exactly is the government trying to hide regarding religious unity?

JRKH, my apologies if this is further de-railing the thread. Bullfrog, if you wish to respond to my questions, please start it in another thread.

 

[JRKH]

The “power role” of the Pope? The pope privately guides the secual governments behind the scenes? Looking at the decisions and laws made in the last 50 years, I’d like to ask where there is any evidence in the Pope’s guidance.

And what exactly is the government trying to hide regarding religious unity?

JRKH, my apologies if this is further de-railing the thread. Bullfrog, if you wish to respond to my questions, please start it in another thread.

Thanks NotWorthy,
I’m not sure what bullfrog is driving at.
It would be good if he would start a thread on this because it really doesn’t apply to what I am trying to learn on this one.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

From what I understand, Paul claimed that saints were those who were baptized and hadn’t fallen away from the faithful.

This seems to make sense.
So The Church is a broader group of “believers” which would include catachumens.

Still, it seems that, in addressing Corinthians like this:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the Church of God which is at Corinth with **all the saints **who are throughout Achaia:

Paul is using the singular Church and plural “saints”. Thus saints, being plural applies to the conglomeration of individuals while “Church” being singular applies to the Surrounding Body or Structure that includes all the “saints”.

Or am I reading to much into this.

I guess what I am trying to get at is whether there can be a biblical foundation for the non-catholic view of authority. Personally I don’t see any.
As I pointed out in my OP, we can point to Mt 16:18-19, Mt 18:15-18, and Acts 15:1-29 as clear indicators of Authority.
Can non-catholics point to any such biblical indicators showing a, “no earthly authority” position?.

He seemed to (at least in my opinion) reserve this term for those who he was happy with - i.e. the Phillipians, the Ephesians - and refrained from using it when chastising his children, such as the Corinthians.

But I may be way off base on that thought.

Don’t think I can agree with this since several of the quotes I used above are actually from letters to the Corinthians.
In fact the two instances where saints and Church are used together is in the salutations to the Corinthians.

P.S. Sorry, I haven’t come back to this thread earlier, but two others train wrecks are occupying my time, sadly.

No problem - Been there - Done That.
I was just surprised that there aren’t more people who might have (name removed by moderator)ut. Maybe I just don’t explain myself well sometimes. I do have my Duh Days

Peace
James

 

[NotWorthy]

This seems to make sense.
So The Church is a broader group of “believers” which would include catachumens.

Still, it seems that, in addressing Corinthians like this:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the Church of God which is at Corinth with **all the saints **who are throughout Achaia:

Paul is using the singular Church and plural “saints”. Thus saints, being plural applies to the conglomeration of individuals while “Church” being singular applies to the Surrounding Body or Structure that includes all the “saints”.

Or am I reading to much into this.

Maybe one direction that may help. Although I may lead some in the right direction or just follow a typical “Notworthy” path of meadnering.

What is the Body of Christ? Its a group of individials who are one in Christ.
Who is the Head? Christ, of course.
Did Christ leave any authority behind? Hmmmmm… um, yes.
Who holds that authority? What if two groups who claim authority have differing opinions on a hard-core (essentials) teaching?

The biggest objection is, “Well, the Body of Christ and the Church are separate”. Well, are they? Or are they husband and wife, as discussed in Ephesians? And what is God’s teaching on marriage? In marriage, “The two become as one…”

 

[Nita]

Heb 12:23 -
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Why is general assembly and Church separated here? Isn’t the letter to ALL the faithful?

I do not wish to imply that the terms Church and “Body of believers” is mutually exlusive, with one indicating authority and the other not. Only that it appears that Paul and the Apostles did not always think in term of the terms being interchangable.

One other thing that occurs to me in this regard is that, if the “Church” is made up of the followers of Christ, why the term Church in the first place? Why not Disciples? That is what they are called in the Gospels?

What translation are you using for the Hebrews passage?
Douay Rheims: Heb 12:23 “And to the church of the firstborn, who are written…”
NAB: Heb 12:23 “to the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, to God…”
RSV: Heb 12:23 "and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven,…

The RSV does note a variant reading at the spot where “assembly” occurs - *“and to the festal gathering and assembly of the first-born…” * I don’t have access to the Greek text for this variant reading, but am guessing the word translated “festal gathering” would be the same one that is translated “festal gathering” in the preceding verse (Heb 12:22b). The Greek dictionary I have defines the term as “festal gathering” or “joyful gathering”. It is not the Greek word “ecclesia” which is usually translated “church” or “assembly”.

I’m thinking the version you have may just be a poor translation.

 

[JRKH]

What translation are you using for the Hebrews passage?
Douay Rheims: Heb 12:23 “And to the church of the firstborn, who are written…”
NAB: Heb 12:23 “to the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, to God…”
RSV: Heb 12:23 "and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven,…

The RSV does note a variant reading at the spot where “assembly” occurs - *“and to the festal gathering and assembly of the first-born…” * I don’t have access to the Greek text for this variant reading, but am guessing the word translated “festal gathering” would be the same one that is translated “festal gathering” in the preceding verse (Heb 12:22b). The Greek dictionary I have defines the term as “festal gathering” or “joyful gathering”. It is not the Greek word “ecclesia” which is usually translated “church” or “assembly”.

I’m thinking the version you have may just be a poor translation.

Well I used “studylight.org” to do my research and the translation was the “New American Standard”.

Other Translations are:
Hebrews 12:23
The New King James Version
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The Douay-Rheims Bible
And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,

The NAS Strong’s Version
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

There may well be an issue in trying to tranlate it because the two “literal translations” are also different.
Young’s Literal Translation
to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect,

J.P. Green’s Literal Translation
and to a gathering, an assembly of the first-born ones having been enrolled in Heaven; and to God the Judge of all, and to spirits of just ones who have been perfected;

Peace
James