Would music like this be allowed in mass?

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Oumashta said:
Well yes, and no. If your church is very traditional then no. But I believe you should praise the Lord in any way (any type of music) I’m been to a pentacostal church before and their music was VERY lively:)
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What the Pentecostal Church does during its worship has absolutely nothing to do with what the Catholic Church deems appropriate for Mass.
 
I am new to the forum, so hi to everyone. I have been singing in St.Mary’s Choir in Akron Ohio for over 30 years and of the three songs posted only “Hail Holy Queen” would be appropriate. The other two are non-secular and have no place during mass.

As to it’s tempo - play it the way it’s written and make sure your choir is together and that they pronounce their words. Listen to your congregation (if their signing) and make sure the choir isn’t running ahead of them. You may find you have to adjust the tempo so everyone can stay together. After all, if everyone has there own tempo, it will sound awful.

If you’re looking for other Marian Hymns, try Mother Dear O Pray For Me, or Mother Dearest, Mother Fairest or On This Day O Beautiful Mother, Hail Mary Gentle Woman, Immaculate Mary, Hail! Queen of Heaven, the list goes on. I mentioned a few older hymns here but there good hymns. If you would like the music to some of the older hymns just send me a PM and I’ll see what I can do. 🙂
 
RosaryKindaGuy said:
i’m sorry to bother with a question as stupid as this but my pastor asked our youth group to come up with some songs for the mass ( there’s only eight of us so he’s combining the responses) so are these songs Considered " apropriate" for mass i just would like to know and the one that starts with " hail mary whats up" would have that part eliminated by the way the choir has agreed to anything we throw at them as long as pastor approves?
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Make a joyfull noise unto the Lord!
As the director of music for my parish I have no problem with the three songs if part of a concert, but not part of mass. Not because they a not sacrate, but because the music used in the mass is to be able to be sung by all present. The choir is not just the members in the choir area, but the entire congregation.
If you can provide music to the congregation, be careful of copy writes, and they can sing with the eight of you, then go for it. Remember that the choir and leaders are ministers of invitation, who invite and encourage through song, full participation in the liturgy, including singing.

Peace,
FAB
 
FAB said:
Make a joyfull noise unto the Lord!
As the director of music for my parish I have no problem with the three songs if part of a concert, but not part of mass. Not because they a not sacrate, but because the music used in the mass is to be able to be sung by all present. The choir is not just the members in the choir area, but the entire congregation.
If you can provide music to the congregation, be careful of copy writes, and they can sing with the eight of you, then go for it. Remember that the choir and leaders are ministers of invitation, who invite and encourage through song, full participation in the liturgy, including singing.

Peace,
FAB
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BUT, BUT, BUT Two of those songs are just regular pop love songs, one completely unchanged from the original version.

“My God” is the love song ‘My Guy’ by Mary Wells, with “God” substituted for “Guy”.

“I Will Follow Him” was never a song about God until this movie either. It was a love song by LIttle Peggy March and came out in several versions before Sister Act, in particular one called “I Will Follow Her” since it was sung by Bobby Darin and one by Ricky Nelson called “I Will Follow You”.
 
Phemie said:
BUT, BUT, BUT Two of those songs are just regular pop love songs, one completely unchanged from the original version.

“My God” is the love song ‘My Guy’ by Mary Wells, with “God” substituted for “Guy”.

“I Will Follow Him” was never a song about God until this movie either. It was a love song by LIttle Peggy March and came out in several versions before Sister Act, in particular one called “I Will Follow Her” since it was sung by Bobby Darin and one by Ricky Nelson called “I Will Follow You”.
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The Church has always taken secular items and incorporated them into the sacrate (i.e. Christmas). So we change a love song about a guy and change it to a love song about following God, no matter were he might lead changes the meaning dramatically. It changes the thought from an earthy love to a spiritual and heavenly love, and is that not what we are looking for.

Peace,
FAB
 
Don9of11 said:
I am new to the forum, so hi to everyone. I have been singing in St.Mary’s Choir in Akron Ohio for over 30 years and of the three songs posted only “Hail Holy Queen” would be appropriate. The other two are non-secular and have no place during mass.

As to it’s tempo - play it the way it’s written and make sure your choir is together and that they pronounce their words. Listen to your congregation (if their signing) and make sure the choir isn’t running ahead of them. You may find you have to adjust the tempo so everyone can stay together. After all, if everyone has there own tempo, it will sound awful.

If you’re looking for other Marian Hymns, try Mother Dear O Pray For Me, or Mother Dearest, Mother Fairest or On This Day O Beautiful Mother, Hail Mary Gentle Woman, Immaculate Mary, Hail! Queen of Heaven, the list goes on. I mentioned a few older hymns here but there good hymns. If you would like the music to some of the older hymns just send me a PM and I’ll see what I can do. 🙂
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However, the particular Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above piece in the OP comes from “Sister Act”, hardly a setting suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We need to remember that not only does the text need to fit, the setting also has to be worthy for inclusion in the Mass.
 
FAB said:
The Church has always taken secular items and incorporated them into the sacrate (i.e. Christmas). So we change a love song about a guy and change it to a love song about following God, no matter were he might lead changes the meaning dramatically. It changes the thought from an earthy love to a spiritual and heavenly love, and is that not what we are looking for.

Peace,
FAB
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Please name one such example of a hymn. Your example, with all due respect, reminds me of a South Park episode where Cartman was trying to form a Christian rock band and decided to insert the Name of Jesus into a secular song just to make it suitable. It does not work that way. There are parameters that must be followed.

Furthermore, the fact that these songs already have a heavily secular connotation and association further disqualifies them from inclusion in the Mass.
 
benedictgal said:
Please name one such example of a hymn. Your example, with all due respect, reminds me of a South Park episode where Cartman was trying to form a Christian rock band and decided to insert the Name of Jesus into a secular song just to make it suitable. It does not work that way. There are parameters that must be followed.

Furthermore, the fact that these songs already have a heavily secular connotation and association further disqualifies them from inclusion in the Mass.
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We are looking at three specific peices of music which even for a movie showed a certain amount of recpect toward Catholic sensabilities. I doubt if South Park did the same.
The idea of music, in the liturgy is to allow the individual to have a spritual experiance. I certainly don’t think all musical forms are appropriate, but I do think it is appropriate to reflect cultural differences.
Peace,
FAB
 
benedictgal said:
Please name one such example of a hymn. Your example, with all due respect, reminds me of a South Park episode where Cartman was trying to form a Christian rock band and decided to insert the Name of Jesus into a secular song just to make it suitable. It does not work that way. There are parameters that must be followed.

Furthermore, the fact that these songs already have a heavily secular connotation and association further disqualifies them from inclusion in the Mass.
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Maybe he/she can be referring to the Gounod and Schubert versions of the Ave Maria.
 
“A Mighty Fortress Is Our God”. I realize that it is generally considered a Protestant hymn, but it’s in Catholic hymnals, and I really don’t think there is anything “un-Catholic” in the theology in this hymn.

The melody was a drinking song, and Martin Luther decided to use it for his poem.

Another hymn that comes to mind is the melody from Beethoven’s 9th Symphony–there are several hymns that have made use of this melody. The one most of us know is “Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee.” I don’t think that the original purpose of Beethoven was to write a melody for use in the Mass.

The melody from Silelius’s “Finlandia” is used for the hymn, “Be Still My Soul.” I’ve never heard this sung in Catholic Churches and to be honest, I haven’t looked to see if it’s in the hymnal. I like it a lot and it seems like it would be appropriate for use in Mass. Here is a link to the words for anyone who would like to check it out: igracemusic.com/hymnbook/hymns/b01.html

I know that there are other hymns that make use of secular melodies. I have several volumes of those books of “hymn origins.” Not sure about Catholic hymns–there doesn’t seem to be a lot of information made easily available about the Catholic hymns. Maybe one way to encourage the use of more Catholic hymns in Catholic Mass would be for someone (benedictgal?! sarabande?! agapewolf?!) to write a compilation of the stories and origins of the Catholic hymns–these books are usually good sellers, and such a book might promote interest among Catholic laypeople in their own hymnody.

I think the problem with using “My Guy” and “I Will Follow Him” is that almost everyone recognizes these as secular songs and will recall secular moments in their lives and history (e.g., the scenes from Sister Act!) when they hear these hymns–not a good thing. We want people to think about God and heaven and sacred things when they hear hymns. We want to lift people up to heaven with music, not leave them here on the earth.

I believe (?) that the rubrics forbid the use of strictly secular music in the Mass? Even if the rubrics don’t forbid it, I would follow this guideline anyway. My reasoning is that you only get four hymns in Mass (I’m assuming an OF Mass). Why waste such a small opportunity on a secular song-turned-hymn when there are so many sacred hymns and pieces of music to choose from? Redeem the time wisely and choose hymns that were written to be used as hymns. People can hear the secular songs anytime (oldies station will play My Guy and I Will Follow Him often). But no where but church (Mass) will you hear congregational singing of traditional and contemporary hymns.
 
Phemie said:
What the Pentecostal Church does during its worship has absolutely nothing to do with what the Catholic Church deems appropriate for Mass.
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Oh goodness, I’m just saying, you don’t have to get all up tight about it:) Yes I know that what other churches do have nothing to do with Holy Mass, but I was just saying that their music was lively. I only visited that church I don’t go to it.
 
Oumashta said:
Oh goodness, I’m just saying, you don’t have to get all up tight about it:) Yes I know that what other churches do have nothing to do with Holy Mass, but I was just saying that their music was lively. I only visited that church I don’t go to it.
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I reacted because I’m tired of sitting in liturgy meetings and hearing “We must do X & Y so that our children don’t go to the Pentecostal Church where they sing this, and they do that.” Those who say it don’t care that X & Y are things the Church has already said we mustn’t do.

No, what we have to do is give our children a foundation in faith that will allow them to know and love their own Church and you don’t do that by watering down the message or failing to transmit it altogether. And you certainly don’t do it by making Church no different from the pop radio station they listen to.
 
Phemie said:
I reacted because I’m tired of sitting in liturgy meetings and hearing “We must do X & Y so that our children don’t go to the Pentecostal Church where they sing this, and they do that.” Those who say it don’t care that X & Y are things the Church has already said we mustn’t do.

No, what we have to do is give our children a foundation in faith that will allow them to know and love their own Church and you don’t do that by watering down the message or failing to transmit it altogether. And you certainly don’t do it by making Church no different from the pop radio station they listen to.
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Who said protestant music was like the pop station? Ok I really don’t feel like arguing with a fellow Catholic, I’ve had a bad day and trying to get over some bad news. Whether or not you choose to use music with a fast beat or slow beat doesn’t matter. That is up to the Church.
 
benedictgal said:
However, the particular Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above piece in the OP comes from “Sister Act”, hardly a setting suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We need to remember that not only does the text need to fit, the setting also has to be worthy for inclusion in the Mass.
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Sorry about that, I wasn’t suggesting that the particular rendition of Hali Holy Queen from Sister Act was appropriate for mass but the music as found in today’s missal or hymnal. 😉
 
Ok one more thing. Music for mass should be hymns and slow music. But if you are using fast music for Mass I wouldn’t agree, but for other places Christian music like Christian rock would be ok to me… It’s hard to explain.🙂 .
 
Oumashta said:
Ok one more thing. Music for mass should be hymns and slow music. But if you are using fast music for Mass I wouldn’t agree, but for other places Christian music like Christian rock would be ok to me… It’s hard to explain.🙂 .
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Oumashta, I certainly don’t want to jump all over you. But honestly, hymns do NOT have to be slow! In fact, many of them are in march tempo, and should be sung with a lively, vigorous feeling!

One of my pet peeves–in fact, I would call it a temper-tantrum pet peeve!–is when a musician does a hymn (plays or sings) at a dirge-like tempo. For example, a hymn like “Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee” should NOT be sung at funeral speed! When you are joyful, do you plod along and speak in a low voice with your eyes downcast? Of course not! You leap and hotscotch and skip along the sidewalk, and your voice bubbles over with happiness! A little speed, please!

And on a practical note, most singers in the pews do NOT have the breath power and the diaphragm support to be able to sustain looooooooooong phrases when the hymns are played so darn slow! I think that the instrumentalist or cantor (whoever sets the tempo) should try to gauge the wind-power of the average guy or gal in the pews, and sing the hymns such that they can complete a phrase without taking more than one breath.

However, I will say that instrumentalists have to be careful not to rush the congregation through a hymn so that the words sound like Woody the Woodpecker or Daffy Duck. But usually, the error is the other way–the words are soooooooo sllooooooowwww thaaaaaaat weeeeeee caaaaaaaannn-t unnnnndrrrrrrstaaaaaaand thm!

Sorry to sound crotchety here! It’s not you! It’s all the Droopy Dogg musicians!
 
Cat said:
Oumashta, I certainly don’t want to jump all over you. But honestly, hymns do NOT have to be slow! In fact, many of them are in march tempo, and should be sung with a lively, vigorous feeling!

One of my pet peeves–in fact, I would call it a temper-tantrum pet peeve!–is when a musician does a hymn (plays or sings) at a dirge-like tempo. For example, a hymn like “Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee” should NOT be sung at funeral speed! When you are joyful, do you plod along and speak in a low voice with your eyes downcast? Of course not! You leap and hotscotch and skip along the sidewalk, and your voice bubbles over with happiness! A little speed, please!
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There’s no need to get upset. It’s a matter of taste and many people will disagree with you. I prefer the slower pace as I find it fosters a more prayerful environment for me.
And on a practical note, most singers in the pews do NOT have the breath power and the diaphragm support to be able to sustain looooooooooong phrases when the hymns are played so darn slow! I think that the instrumentalist or cantor (whoever sets the tempo) should try to gauge the wind-power of the average guy or gal in the pews, and sing the hymns such that they can complete a phrase without taking more than one breath.
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Gauge people’s wind-power? That’s absurd. The music doesn’t have to be perfect, it’s our desire to worship properly which counts. As long as the music conforms to the rubrics, then you have to respect the tastes and short-comings of the parish priest, music directors, etc.
However, I will say that instrumentalists have to be careful not to rush the congregation through a hymn so that the words sound like Woody the Woodpecker or Daffy Duck. But usually, the error is the other way–the words are soooooooo sllooooooowwww thaaaaaaat weeeeeee caaaaaaaannn-t unnnnndrrrrrrstaaaaaaand thm!
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That’s easily solved by the hymnal that lays before the parishioner.
Sorry to sound crotchety here! It’s not you! It’s all the Droopy Dogg musicians!
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De gustibus non est disputandum. In matters of taste, there is no argument.

There’s no need for your hostility, I like sllllllllllooooooooooowwwwwwwww mmmmmmuuuuuuusssssssiiiiiiiiic annnnnddddddddd theeeeeeeerrrrreeeeeeeeee isssssssssss notttthingg wrooooooonggggg withhhh ittttttt.

So don’t get angry.
 
Oumashta said:
Ok one more thing. Music for mass should be hymns and slow music. But if you are using fast music for Mass I wouldn’t agree, but for other places Christian music like Christian rock would be ok to me… It’s hard to explain.🙂 .
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I agree, I think it’s because slower music comes off as more dignified and solemn which helps us to engage in a deeper contemplation of the mystery which lays before us. On the other hand, I find faster music to be distracting during mass.

The proper form of music for our rite is Gregorian chant. If Gregorian chant is the model, then certainly it would suggest a favoring of slow music.
 
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