Would music like this be allowed in mass?

[Freshman88]

youtube.com/watch?v=PXlzxd5zZnw

Suddenly I have an urge to drop to my knees and pray .

 

[Cat]

Suddenly I have an urge to drop to my knees and pray .

Interesting. I had the urge to lay down and die.

The hymn had no regular beat or tempo. It started out slow and got slower–this is a no-no in congregational singing or in any group singing in which there is no conductor . The musicians should set the tempo and stick with it. Variations in tempo are appropriate for solo music, especially jazz and pop, but not in hymns.

As for the hymn in this Youtube, In a congregational setting, the worshipper would be taking about three breaths in each phrase, especially in the high section. (Sitting at our desk in front of a computer and singing along is not the same as standing in a nave next to a pew.) This much gasping for air is just plain painful! No wonder Catholics don’t sing. AND more importantly, it is an INSULT to the great phrases in this song. Why on earth would you want to break up phrases like “Triumph all ye cherubim!” into three or four phrases, or worse, break the words into halves; e.g., tri-breath-umph. That’s BAD English! Do you like listening to people talk who talk one word at a time instead of complete sentences? That’s the kind of thing that people do when they are ill or on their death-bed.

Slow does not necessarily equate with “worshipful,” and “lively” does not necessarily equate with “irreverent.”

I had a year of Latin in high school, but we never got into conversational Latin. Is spoken Latin broken into one-word-at-a-time thoughts, unlike English? Perhaps that would explain the reason why some people think these hymns should be sung so slowly.

 

[Cat]

There’s no need to get upset. It’s a matter of taste and many people will disagree with you. I prefer the slower pace as I find it fosters a more prayerful environment for me.
**
Gauge people’s wind-power? That’s absurd**. The music doesn’t have to be perfect, it’s our desire to worship properly which counts. As long as the music conforms to the rubrics, then you have to respect the tastes and short-comings of the parish priest, music directors, etc.

That’s easily solved by the hymnal that lays before the parishioner.

De gustibus non est disputandum. In matters of taste, there is no argument.

There’s no need for your hostility, I like sllllllllllooooooooooowwwwwwwww mmmmmmuuuuuuusssssssiiiiiiiiic annnnnddddddddd theeeeeeeerrrrreeeeeeeeee isssssssssss notttthingg wrooooooonggggg withhhh ittttttt.

So don’t get angry.

Boldface above–excuse me. Do YOU play piano for congregational singing and choirs? For how many years have you played, and how many directors/conductors have you worked under? Have you had any formal classes in conducting?

It is NOT absurd at all. I simply sing (in my mind) a few phrases of the hymn and it is easy enough to determine a tempo that allows the congregation to easily pronounce the words clearly but not have to take many breaths for each phrase.

Usually a conductor (or a good cantor) does something like this to determine a tempo. An experienced conductor KNOWS the appropriate tempos for many of the hymns, and as a very experienced church pianist, so do I.

It is very seldom that I have a conductor for congregational singing in the Mass, and even more seldom do I have a cantor who sets the tempo; usually they expect ME to set the tempo. And so before I start playing, I gauge (in my mind) their singing ability, and I try to set tempos that they can sing comfortably and joyfully, and that are appropriate for each hymn.

Not ALL hymns, even Catholic hymns, are meant to be sung at “molto largo.” It would be just as inappropriate and IRREVERENT to play a lively hymn slowly as it is to play a somber hymn fast.

 

[Freshman88]

Interesting. I had the urge to lay down and die.

The hymn had no regular beat or tempo. It started out slow and got slower–this is a no-no in congregational singing or in any group singing in which there is no conductor . The musicians should set the tempo and stick with it. Variations in tempo are appropriate for solo music, especially jazz and pop, but not in hymns.

As technical and vast as your knowledge of music may be - it doesn’t really matter [edit: in this particular argument].

It’s simply a matter of taste, and I enjoyed it. I could care less what the rules are, the rules don’t change what I like or not.

As for the hymn in this Youtube, In a congregational setting, the worshipper would be taking about three breaths in each phrase, especially in the high section. (Sitting at our desk in front of a computer and singing along is not the same as standing in a nave next to a pew.) This much gasping for air is just plain painful!

I’m a young heatlhy, atheletic male. Singing doesn’t hurt, not matter what the tempo is.

No wonder Catholics don’t sing.

Aw come on Cat, that’s completely baseless.

AND more importantly, it is an INSULT to the great phrases in this song. Why on earth would you want to break up phrases like “Triumph all ye cherubim!” into three or four phrases, or worse, break the words into halves; e.g., tri-breath-umph. That’s BAD English!

Insulting? I find it to be Trimumphal and magnificant. Why are you using such strong language for something as silly as taste. You need to just relax, not everyone likes the same flavour of baskin robins.

As for the English… who cares? It’s a song, there is poetic license.

Do you like listening to people talk who talk one word at a time instead of complete sentences? That’s the kind of thing that peopel do when they are ill or on their death-bed.

Yeah I don’t like it when they are talking - I do like it when it is sung. The two are unrelated.

Slow does not necessarily equate with “worshipful,” and “lively” does not necessarily equate with “irreverent.”

Yup.

I had a year of Latin in high school, but we never got into conversational Latin. Is spoken Latin broken into one-word-at-a-time thoughts, unlike English? Perhaps that would explain the reason why some people think these hymns should be sung so slowly.

Cat there is no need for an argument. People just like it this way, and it is the traditional setting.

I like Vodka, but hate whiskey.
I like steak, but hate fish.
I like red, but I’m not a fan of purple.
I like fast and upbeat music on the gridiron, but dislike it when it’s played at mass.

It’s a mystery as to why this is. But there’s no reason to fight it, just accept our tastes for what they are, as long as they follow the rubrics and I’ll do the same with you.

Again Cat, there is no disputing tastes.

 

[Freshman88]

Boldface above–excuse me. Do YOU play piano for congregational singing and choirs? For how many years have you played, and how many directors/conductors have you worked under? Have you had any formal classes in conducting?

I have zero musical training. But gauging the whole entire congregation is just silly, not everyone has to sing.

It is NOT absurd at all. I simply sing (in my mind) a few phrases of the hymn and it is easy enough to determine a tempo that allows the congregation to easily pronounce the words clearly but not have to take many breaths for each phrase.

Again, not every hymn has to be sung by every person. It’s ambitious, but not necessary.

Usually a conductor (or a good cantor) does something like this to determine a tempo. An experienced conductor KNOWS the appropriate tempos for many of the hymns, and as a very experienced church pianist, so do I.

Ok, I get it, your good at music, shesh. It doesn’t change the fact that we’re debating something which is a matter of preference (taste).

It is very seldom that I have a conductor for congregational singing in the Mass, and even more seldom do I have a cantor who sets the tempo; usually they expect ME to set the tempo. And so before I start playing, I gauge (in my mind) their singing ability, and I try to set tempos that they can sing comfortably and joyfully, and that are appropriate for each hymn.

That’s considerate, but not necessary.

Not ALL hymns, even Catholic hymns, are meant to be sung at “molto largo.”

True, but there is a traditional prefrence for slower and solemn music, especially if we look to chant. That should be respected, but as it stands fast music is permitted so, yeah, play it at your speed, I just don’t enjoy it when at mass. I might enjoy at home, but it just doesn’t work for me when I’m praying.

It would be just as inappropriate and IRREVERENT to play a lively hymn slowly as it is to play a somber hymn fast.

Playing music fast or slow is not matter of reverence if you are following all the guidelines and rubrics.

It might be considered awful by musical elites such as yourself, but it certainly doesn’t mean that its irreverent.

 

[Phemie]

That’s easily solved by the hymnal that lays before the parishioner.

Not really. Some of the traditional hymns in my hymnal have no time signature. You can drag them out or race them 'til you’re gasping for breath or you can sing them at a moderate pace that allows as many people to sing as want to without losing reverence.

Personally I thought this latest version of Hail Holy Queen was way too slow.

 

[Freshman88]

Not really. Some of the traditional hymns in my hymnal have no time signature. You can drag them out or race them 'til you’re gasping for breath or you can sing them at a moderate pace that allows as many people to sing as want to without losing reverence.

I said that in response to the comment about not understanding the lyrics, not the tempo.

Personally I thought this latest version of Hail Holy Queen was way too slow.

I loved it . But as they say, to each his own.

 

[Cat]

I said that in response to the comment about not understanding the lyrics, not the tempo.

I loved it . But as they say, to each his own.

Thank you so much for this. As I understand your post, if you are visiting the parish where I am playing piano on Sunday, you will cheerfully enjoy the hymns (whether or not you sing them) and you will not harbor any critical thoughts against me or the cantor. God bless you for this. It is very hard to play and wonder if someone out there is thinking, “Lounge lizard” or worse.

I wish every Catholic could be like this–less critical of music in Mass and more willing to accomodate the tastes of others.

BTW, I am not a musical elite, heavens no. I enjoy all styles of music in Mass, traditional and contemporary, and I will NEVER criticize any specific musician, cantor, choir, or conductor. I have pet peeves–as I mentioned, I dislike it when the songs are done at an inappropriately slow tempo. Another pet peeve is when the music can’t be heard, usually because of a sub-standard sound system (I call them “Mr. Microphones”).

It occurs to me that one of the reasons why slow tempos bother me so much is that back when we were still Protestant, it was a rare thing to hear any traditional hymn in the worship service, and usually when we DID hear a hymn, it was done so horribly slow (even hymns like Onward Christian Soldiers) that my kids used to say, “Mom, it’s a plot by CCM artists to make all Christians hate traditional hymns and buy their Christian rock albums!” We would laugh about this, but we were half-way serious. We had an internationally-known musician as the music minister in our church (many Catholics would recognize his name, or at least names of many of his songs), and this man always played hymns (that he didn’t write) at a dirge-like tempo. It was almost comical, it was so slow. The main reason he did this was so that he could improvise jazz licks on the piano while the choir (and congregation) held out the looooooong notes.

So perhaps this helps you understand why I really hate it when traditional hymns are played too slow.

BTW, that music minister is dead now, God rest his soul. He left a huge legacy of beautiful Christian music behind.

But even though I have these pet peeves, I truly think that everyone who sings or plays or conducts has something good to offer, and I believe it’s important to appreciate everyone’s effort in music ministry during Mass. Some of my favorite cantors are the ones who really don’t sing very well, and the best pianist in our parish is a grandfather (father of eight children) who plays by ear–he has a wonderful testimony!

 

[Oumashta]

Oumashta, I certainly don’t want to jump all over you. But honestly, hymns do NOT have to be slow! In fact, many of them are in march tempo, and should be sung with a lively, vigorous feeling!

One of my pet peeves–in fact, I would call it a temper-tantrum pet peeve!–is when a musician does a hymn (plays or sings) at a dirge-like tempo. For example, a hymn like “Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee” should NOT be sung at funeral speed! When you are joyful, do you plod along and speak in a low voice with your eyes downcast? Of course not! You leap and hotscotch and skip along the sidewalk, and your voice bubbles over with happiness! A little speed, please!

And on a practical note, most singers in the pews do NOT have the breath power and the diaphragm support to be able to sustain looooooooooong phrases when the hymns are played so darn slow! I think that the instrumentalist or cantor (whoever sets the tempo) should try to gauge the wind-power of the average guy or gal in the pews, and sing the hymns such that they can complete a phrase without taking more than one breath.

However, I will say that instrumentalists have to be careful not to rush the congregation through a hymn so that the words sound like Woody the Woodpecker or Daffy Duck. But usually, the error is the other way–the words are soooooooo sllooooooowwww thaaaaaaat weeeeeee caaaaaaaannn-t unnnnndrrrrrrstaaaaaaand thm!

Sorry to sound crotchety here! It’s not you! It’s all the Droopy Dogg musicians!

Phemie says music should be slow, you say music should be fast and I am trying to agree with all of you. Ok let me come right out and say this. I’m a new convert to Catholicism. I used to be protestant. I got tired of all the denominations “baptists are right” “methodists are right” “pentacostals are right” I got really tired of it! Until I asked my Lord Jesus to tell me the truth. I prayed and asked him to guide me to the true denomination. I used to dislike Catholics because everyone would tell me “Catholics worship mary” “Catholic churches are dead”. Until I decided to find out for myself. It’s all lies really. Because no-one decided to find out. The strange thing about it is that I’ve never met a Catholic in real life. I was converted after watching catholic vs. protestant arguments online. Well I’m Catholic now

I think music should be praising the Lord lively. It all really depends, I know I sound like I’m trying to suck up to everyone It really depends on the church and people…

 

[alacoque]

What would you be moved to express or utter in your song if you were in person at Calvary on Good Friday afternoon? That’s the Mass; that’s where you are. If you wouldn’t express it on Calvary, don’t include it in Mass - which IS the sacrifice of Calvary.

 

[Phemie]

Phemie says music should be slow, you say music should be fast and I am trying to agree with all of you.

I think music should be praising the Lord lively. It all really depends, I know I sound like I’m trying to suck up to everyone It really depends on the church and people…

Wait a minute! I never said music should be sloooooowwww. I said that it shouldn’t be secular and at Mass it shouldn’t be a party atmosphere – we are standing at Calvary after all. It should be sung at a tempo that best suits the hymn we are singing. Most hymns are sung too slowly, especially by congregations that are singing a capella.

I’m with Cat: if you have to breathe in the middle of a word you need to up the tempo. If you’ve ever heard Beethoven’s 9th, you’ll know that ‘Ode to Joy’ is a peppy tune but give it to a church choir and it’s often draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaags. That takes away from both the music and the words that are set to it.

 

[Cat]

What would you be moved to express or utter in your song if you were in person at Calvary on Good Friday afternoon? That’s the Mass; that’s where you are. If you wouldn’t express it on Calvary, don’t include it in Mass - which IS the sacrifice of Calvary.

So what you’re saying is that lively songs like “Christ the Lord is Risen Today, Hallelujah” are inappropriate for Mass? Because I sure as shootin’ wouldn’t sing THAT at Calvary!

Also, be very careful what you say! You ask how I would be moved to express or utter a song if I were at person at Calvary on Good Friday? The answer is-- If I were standing at Calvary, I would be moved to hear the loudest, most metal rock music, because I think THIS kind of music best expresses the way the universe–heaven and earth–was at that moment in human history. I do NOT think that men and boys standing around in long white robes intoning Latin phrases through their noses in a random melody-less fashion would ever express the sacrifice of Christ. To me, that sounds sissy and weak.

Others would say that rhythmic drums would best express the moment, while others would say pan-flutes, while still others would say a symphony orchestra with something written by John Williams (Star Wars). And many MANY people in the U.S. would say that a country music song by someone like Johnny Cash would be the best possible music tofully express the agony and beauty of Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary. (Actually, that would be my second choice of music.)

We can’t rely strictly on our own preference for music to determine what is appropriate for Mass. It just opens up too many doors, doesn’t it?

 

[Cat]

Phemie says music should be slow, you say music should be fast and I am trying to agree with all of you. Ok let me come right out and say this. I’m a new convert to Catholicism. I used to be protestant. I got tired of all the denominations “baptists are right” “methodists are right” “pentacostals are right” I got really tired of it! Until I asked my Lord Jesus to tell me the truth. I prayed and asked him to guide me to the true denomination. I used to dislike Catholics because everyone would tell me “Catholics worship mary” “Catholic churches are dead”. Until I decided to find out for myself. It’s all lies really. Because no-one decided to find out. The strange thing about it is that I’ve never met a Catholic in real life. I was converted after watching catholic vs. protestant arguments online. Well I’m Catholic now

I think music should be praising the Lord lively. It all really depends, I know I sound like I’m trying to suck up to everyone It really depends on the church and people…

You say that you’ve never met a Catholic?

Have you merely chosen to be Catholic on your own, or have you been through RCIA and been welcomed into the Catholic Church?

You can’t just choose to become Catholic and that makes you Catholic. That’s not the way it works. There’s a year of studying that you have to go through first, just like in in the First Century Christian Church. That’s done for YOUR protection–you have a right to know exactly what you’re getting into here by becoming Catholic! And you have a right to a good education about the Catholic Church and your faith.

Forgive me if I am assuming incorrectly. From the way your post is worded, it kind of sounds like you aren’t really Catholic yet, but that you merely desire to become Catholic.

As for the answer to your questions about the music in Mass–the priest in any parish (church) is responsible for determining what music he shall allow in his Mass. The priest receives authority from the bishop, and so ultimately, it is the bishop who has the authority to select music for Mass.

The priest is currently allowed to choose from many different styles of music, although the Gregorian Chant is supposed to be given a “place of honor” in Mass.

Many priests, because they have little or no musical background or knowledge, choose to delegate the responsibility for selecting appropriate Mass music to a music director or liturgical director. Usually this person is a lay person (not a priest), and this person has the authority to select the music for the Mass.

This person should be knowledgeable about the “rubrics” (fancy word for rules) that are in place to assure that the “liturgy” of the Mass is correct and abuse-free. For example, the musician can’t just sing any piece of music in place of the Psalm; they are supposed to sing the correct Psalm of the day.

**So in answer to your question about “lively” music–it’s not up to us, the people in the pews. It’s up to the priest and/or his music director. ** **It’s up to us, the people in the pews, to SUBMIT to the God-given authority of our priest (and his delegated music director) and accept the music that they select. **

If we have problems with their musical selections for any reason, we can go to them in private and discuss our problems. There are abuses that occur in the selection of music for Mass; e.g., as I mentioned above, a musician may replace the Psalm with a solo piece of his/her own preference. This is what’s called an “abuse,” and it is appropriate for the lay person to try to correct this.

Also, if you would like to see different styles (e.g., more lively music, more contemporary music), it is certainly appropriate to ask the priest and/or his music director. If they say “no,” it is your responsibility to submit to their authority, and to do so with a cheerful attitude.

You should be aware that different parishes have differences in their Mass music and perhaps you should look around for something that is more in accord with your preferences. If you are looking for “lively” or “contemporary,” see if there is a parish near you in which a “Life Teen Mass” is offered. Our parish does a Life Teen Mass that is very popular with hundreds of teenagers (and adults, too!). The way to find which parish offers Life Teen Mass is to call the headquarters of your diocese. You can find this in the phone book–look under “diocese.” Or ask a Catholic Church for the number of the diocese headquarters.

Some churches have a very “lively” selection of music that is not necessarily “rock” music (Life Teen). My daughter attended a “Liguorian” parish, and apparently their motto is “Joy of the Eucharist.” I have never heard such wonderful music in a Catholic parish! Lively is not the word–joyous, soaring, invigorating, exciting, gorgeous, ethereal! The musicians and singers were of professional quality. (I discovered from my daughter that the reason this church has such wonderful music is that many of the parishioners ARE professional musicians–the parish has apparently attracted many professional artists, actors, singers, instrumentalists, writers, and other creative people.)

I play piano for an Italian parish, and they LOVE to sing! They will sing most of the hymns, traditional and contemporary, but especially contemporary, with great enthusiasm. This is a sharp contrast to my home parish, where the Masses (other than Life Teen) are rather quiet during the singing. ALSO, because this parish is administered by the Franciscans, there is no Gregorian chant. It’s not allowed by this Order.

So look around a little. Just be careful that you are attending TRUE Catholic Churches, not one of the Catholic “cults.” There are churches that call themselves Catholic, but they are not in communion with Rome and the Magisterium. Be careful, please. Good music is not worth losing your soul.

 

[alacoque]

Cat:

I stand by what I said. It wasn’t I who allowed that ‘only’ sad, sorrowful, dirge-like music is appropriate…so think about it a little more deeply.

It may be that some people WOULD find a praise/joyful song filling their heart as they appreciated the redemption of mankind and the world and witnessed the love of God for them and all of us.

I meant what I said in that the appropriate expression is what each one of us would find compatible with our heart’s movements. For some that might be one kind of music, for others, another kind. I don’t think anything, necessarily, would be out of line except that which is either disrespectful or that focuses on ‘us’ at the expense of the REAL focus. The Mass, I’m sure you know and agree, is not about us, it’s about what God does FOR us.

Our music should only reflect that greater / whole reality, that’s all.

I agree; our own musical preferences are not the determining element here (especially because too many of us are too lacking in knowledge or familiarity with liturgical music throughout the 2000+ years of the church and have very secular tastes).

But, I didn’t say that we should go with our ‘preferences’…I gave a clear and specific example of what should guide us = Calvary. For some, that experience will be so profound, no music at all will be their choice. For others, joy and praise will rise in their hearts and, for others, repentance and sorrow…and there are probably other reactions as well.

I am not a traditionalist. My only point is that I believe the focus of the Mass is God, in Jesus Christ; it is HIS sacrifice and HIS redemption of our humanity. As long as THAT is what we are celebrating (and not ourselves), the music - whatever it is - will be appropriate and reverent.

God be with you

 

[Cat]

Cat:

I stand by what I said. It wasn’t I who allowed that ‘only’ sad, sorrowful, dirge-like music is appropriate…so think about it a little more deeply.

It may be that some people WOULD find a praise/joyful song filling their heart as they appreciated the redemption of mankind and the world and witnessed the love of God for them and all of us.

I meant what I said in that the appropriate expression is what each one of us would find compatible with our heart’s movements. For some that might be one kind of music, for others, another kind. I don’t think anything, necessarily, would be out of line except that which is either disrespectful or that focuses on ‘us’ at the expense of the REAL focus. The Mass, I’m sure you know and agree, is not about us, it’s about what God does FOR us.

Our music should only reflect that greater / whole reality, that’s all.

I agree; our own musical preferences are not the determining element here (especially because too many of us are too lacking in knowledge or familiarity with liturgical music throughout the 2000+ years of the church and have very secular tastes).

But, I didn’t say that we should go with our ‘preferences’…I gave a clear and specific example of what should guide us = Calvary. For some, that experience will be so profound, no music at all will be their choice. For others, joy and praise will rise in their hearts and, for others, repentance and sorrow…and there are probably other reactions as well.

I am not a traditionalist. My only point is that I believe the focus of the Mass is God, in Jesus Christ; it is HIS sacrifice and HIS redemption of our humanity. As long as THAT is what we are celebrating (and not ourselves), the music - whatever it is - will be appropriate and reverent.

God be with you

Excellent, and I agree with you entirely. You have explained everything very clearly.

My problem is when people claim that the ONLY music appropriate for Calvary’s sacrifice is Gregorian chant and Palestrian-type polyphony, in Latin. I don’t agree, and I don’t think the Church documents teach this at all.

 

[alacoque]

My problem is when people claim that the ONLY music appropriate for Calvary’s sacrifice is Gregorian chant and Palestrian-type polyphony, in Latin. I don’t agree, and I don’t think the Church documents teach this at all.

Agreed…and MY problem is when people wholesale dismiss anything OTHER than secular, irreverent music modified (as they see it) to ‘fit’ the Mass.

Remembering, with humility and love, what the Mass IS will always keep us grounded and in the right place…

In His Love…

 

[Oumashta]

You say that you’ve never met a Catholic?

Have you merely chosen to be Catholic on your own, or have you been through RCIA and been welcomed into the Catholic Church?

You can’t just choose to become Catholic and that makes you Catholic. That’s not the way it works. There’s a year of studying that you have to go through first, just like in in the First Century Christian Church. That’s done for YOUR protection–you have a right to know exactly what you’re getting into here by becoming Catholic! And you have a right to a good education about the Catholic Church and your faith.

Forgive me if I am assuming incorrectly. From the way your post is worded, it kind of sounds like you aren’t really Catholic yet, but that you merely desire to become Catholic.
.

I was a Christian ever since I had the knowledge to understand it. I got baptised when I was 7 and my faith in Christ is real. I know you just can’t “say” your Catholic. As of this moment I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. It is either, join the Catholic Church and be disliked and hated by all family and friends, or wait until I’m older and out of the house till I go. As of this moment I am not old enough in my mother’s eyes to go out of the house and get a job, ect. And according to what I read on this website is

"For those who have been instructed in the Christian faith and have lived as Christians, the situation is different. The U.S. Conference of Bishops states, “Those baptized persons who have lived as Christians and need only instruction in the Catholic tradition and a degree of probation within the Catholic community should not be asked to undergo a full program parallel to the catechumenate” (NSC 31). For this reason, they should not share in the same, full RCIA programs that catechumens do. "

As I said before, I converted after hearing from God that the Catholic Church is the true Church. Not any other denomination. (converted as in believing Catholic doctrine, and praying the Rosary) . I have a basic understanding of Catholic doctrine. And as for “not meeting a catholic before” my mother would never allow a Catholic within 10 feet of me if she knew they were Catholic. Please understand my current situation. I live in Hong Kong/ China and the nearest Catholic Church is a 2 hour trip from where I live. And my mother would squeeze the information out of me where I went for so long. Please pray for me PLEASE. As of this moment I go to a non-denominational church that accepts all Christians as members.

As for music in Mass, I agree, I don’t even know why I was arguing with everyone o_o.

I understand about the Catholic cult thing. There used to be a Church right next to the Church I used to go to. They had this weird “Lamb” cult.