Would these two be allowed to marry?

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LemonAndLime

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I got asked this on another forum =
Person A:
Bear with me here, cuz I’m about to blow your mind: some men have vaginas. Yup. It’s true. And some women have penises. So if a pre-op transsexual gay man (meaning a person who identifies and lives as a man, but still has functioning female genitalia) gets married to a cisgendered gay man (meaning a person who was born with male genitalia and lives and identifies as a man), that marriage would be fine in the eyes of the Church, right? Because all that matters is that one partner have a penis and the other a vagina. Right?
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I said no, but it’s a tricky one. What would be the exact reason they’d be rejected if at all?
 
Lots of issues in this one

I believe that the Church says that intersexed individuals, those that are not cleary male or female are not able to marry.

The Church also says that surgically altered gender is an impediment to marriage too. She never has equated marriage to one penis and one vagina.

Gender is first and formost (with a few, very rare exceptions) about genetics. A person who is male genetically but has a vagina or is female genetically but has a penis can have surgery to correct this.

Given all that the Church would not say that such a marriage could be valid for a few reasons:
  1. the pre-op individual is in the process of changing her gender to male. She would not be bringing her feminine sexuality in to the marriage.
  2. the couple seemingly intends to live as two men
  3. the couple would not be able to consumate the marriage either because the pre-op individual completes her surgical process or because the male is homosexual and not oriented to normal marital relations
  4. the fact that one of the parties is homosexual is an impediment and grounds to have the marriage nulified.
  5. the marriage would not be open to life.
 
I would say no as well. It seems that the first person you mentioned is embracing the homosexual lifestyle which is frowned upon by the Church. I would say that they would essentially be rejected because they are not living how God intended them to live; they are following their will and sticking it to God.

A tricky case indeed. But I don’t think the Church would allow such a marriage.

Out of curiosity, what forum did this come up on? :rolleyes:

EDIT: Excellent answer above! :clapping:
 
Thank you for the answers, do I have your permission to quote them anonymously and re-post them on the forum in question?

It was on a vegetarian message board. Random, I know. 😊
 
LemonAndLime said:
Thank you for the answers, do I have your permission to quote them anonymously and re-post them on the forum in question?

It was on a vegetarian message board. Random, I know. 😊
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I’m not sure my answer is of much help, but if you want to use it go ahead 👍

And yes, that is quite random 😛
 
LemonAndLime said:
Thank you for the answers, do I have your permission to quote them anonymously and re-post them on the forum in question?

It was on a vegetarian message board. Random, I know. 😊
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not sure if you mean me or cooldude but you can use mine if you think it would help.
 
Seriously? Is this a serious question?

pre-op transsexual gay men marrying another gay man on vegetarian message boards… Really?

I think these threads are getting rediculous and that it is an attempt by satan to keep the focus on extremely deviant sexuality. I think the devil greatly desires that we not talk about beautiful marriages, the grace recieved in living out marriage in the image of the trinity, and the sacrament of matrimony.

It’s hard to believe that someone on a vegetarian message board is truly interested in what the Catholic Church has to say about men with vaginas marrying gay men, or whatever the rediculous question is.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
Seriously? Is this a serious question?

pre-op transsexual gay men marrying another gay man on vegetarian message boards… Really?

I think these threads are getting rediculous and that it is an attempt by satan to keep the focus on extremely deviant sexuality. I think the devil greatly desires that we not talk about beautiful marriages, the grace recieved in living out marriage in the image of the trinity, and the sacrament of matrimony.

It’s hard to believe that someone on a vegetarian message board is truly interested in what the Catholic Church has to say about men with vaginas marrying gay men, or whatever the rediculous question is.

-Tim-
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Sad thing is, marriages like this happen in the real world. It is no longer speculation like it may have been 50 or 60 years ago. Thus, the devil has succeeded in infiltrating society. Now he’s going to try to stretch his reach as far as he can.
 
TimothyH said:
Seriously? Is this a serious question?

pre-op transsexual gay men marrying another gay man on vegetarian message boards… Really?

I think these threads are getting rediculous and that it is an attempt by satan to keep the focus on extremely deviant sexuality. I think the devil greatly desires that we not talk about beautiful marriages, the grace recieved in living out marriage in the image of the trinity, and the sacrament of matrimony.

It’s hard to believe that someone on a vegetarian message board is truly interested in what the Catholic Church has to say about men with vaginas marrying gay men, or whatever the rediculous question is.

-Tim-
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What? I posted this because I wanted to know the best reasoning for explaining why this was not allowed, not because Satan told me to. 🤷

And I suppose it’s hard to believe that someone on a Catholic message board would be interested in vegetarianism? There’s a very active vegetarian group on this forum. I’m not sure how relevant the source of this question is, and I think its unfair to dismiss it just because it’s on a vegetarian forum. We do have other interests, you know?
 
LemonAndLime said:
What? I posted this because I wanted to know the best reasoning for explaining why this was not allowed, not because Satan told me to. 🤷

And I suppose it’s hard to believe that someone on a Catholic message board would be interested in vegetarianism? There’s a very active vegetarian group on this forum. I’m not sure how relevant the source of this question is, and I think its unfair to dismiss it just because it’s on a vegetarian forum. We do have other interests, you know?
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Don’t worry. You warned us it was random. 😃 And anything that helps refute this kind of thinking is not going to be pleasing Satan very much.

I think some people think that vegetarian messege boards are only to discuss bean sprouts and tofu. 😉 I am not a vegitarian but used to belong to one vegitarian board that had a very nice sub forum on home schooling.
 
Corki said:
Lots of issues in this one
  1. the couple would not be able to consumate the marriage either because the pre-op individual completes her surgical process or because the male is homosexual and not oriented to normal marital relations
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They can still consummate. Men with homosexual tendencies can still copulate with women.
  1. the fact that one of the parties is homosexual is an impediment and grounds to have the marriage nulified.
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Not necessarily. Men with homosexual tendencies can still validly marry a woman, and be attracted to them.
  1. the marriage would not be open to life.
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Not necessarily. It can still be open to life. Just like an infertile or very old married couple can be open to life.

Just wanted to clear these up! 🙂
 
Garyjohn2 said:
They can still consummate. Men with homosexual tendencies can still copulate with women.

Not necessarily. Men with homosexual tendencies can still validly marry a woman, and be attracted to them.

Not necessarily. It can still be open to life. Just like an infertile or very old married couple can be open to life.

Just wanted to clear these up! 🙂
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The woman in the OP was a pre-operative transexual. At some point, she is not going to have the mechanical ability to have sex with a man. If that point is before they “marry,” it would keep the marriage from being consumated. If that point is after they “marry,” it would make the marriage no longer open to life.

If one spouse is found to be homosexual, it’s practically a “slam dunk” for an annullment. The Church would, of course, give the benefit of the doubt to validity if they were married.

There is one other issue to consider. The female in this scenario is identifying and living as a man. In order to present herself for marriage to a man, she would have to identify as a woman. The couple in the scenario wouldn’t make it past the first interview with the priest, regardless of mechanics or biological components.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
I’m assuming they have no rules regarding off topic subjects? 🙂
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They have an off-topic/current affairs section 🙂 this discussion was in a section about the NY law.

Debating with a member who I have just realised is 14. Not sure I’m gonna get anywhere.
 
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