Would this be considred liturgical abuse?

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taylormcbee

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Me and my girlfriend and her family went to a “lifeteen” mass tonight it was going well until the priest when saying the words of consencration did not lift the host all the way up or genuflect . he did genuflect but not untill he had consencrated both the body and precious blood. also when doing the concluding doxology he said through him with him in the in the unity of the holy spritit but the new missall says through him with him o god all mighty father … also durring the our father some of the parisohoners held hands but what i found the most shocking is at least 85 percent were using the orans postion. it was actually in this churches bulliten to use the orans posture a while back… ??? this is not my regular parrish it is where my girlfriend and her family go. i go to a parrish back at home. granted i am not a catholic yet but this just didn’t seem like a mass i had gone to . or what i read on here. ? thanks.
 
taylormcbee said:
Me and my girlfriend and her family went to a “lifeteen” mass tonight it was going well until the priest when saying the words of consencration did not lift the host all the way up or genuflect . he did genuflect but not untill he had consencrated both the body and precious blood. also when doing the concluding doxology he said through him with him in the in the unity of the holy spritit but the new missall says through him with him o god all mighty father … also durring the our father some of the parisohoners held hands but what i found the most shocking is at least 85 percent were using the orans postion. it was actually in this churches bulliten to use the orans posture a while back… ??? this is not my regular parrish it is where my girlfriend and her family go. i go to a parrish back at home. granted i am not a catholic yet but this just didn’t seem like a mass i had gone to . or what i read on here. ? thanks.
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Wow… what a Nutshell to crack open. You’re going to get alot of hits on this topic… probibly a dozen before I can even spell check this!

I have an abridged version of the new GIRM, it lacks the section numbers; however:

For the exposition of the Host and Chalice after consecration:
All it states is that the Host and Chalice need be “shown to the faithful.” IF he elevated them high enough for those gathered to see the Host and Chalice then that may not be an issue.
However, it is very clear that the priest should genuflect after showing the Host and again after showing the Chalice.

:crutches: Beware: He may have an indulgence due to medical limitations, we have a priest with just such an indulgence from our Bishop that allows him to bow instead of genuflect - but he does so after each exposition.

:hypno: Please give him a break with the doxology… it’s changed, and just as we still have people that are saying “and also with you” and missing the “consubstantial” in the creed so shall a priest or two use the wrong words. It has been only three weeks since the new translation was put in to use and not everyone has had the time to study/learn the about the changes. I’m on an RCIA team and my wife teaches 3rd year PRE; thus, we’ve been exposed to the new translation alot more than most people. However, one thing to study it, a different thing to actually use the new translation while under “pressure.” 🤷 Even I’ve made a mistake, the Lord forgives. 🤷

Orans Position:
If you search this site for that, you will turn up a ton of messages.

The GIRM does NOT have any instruction concerning the faithful and the Orans Position while reciting the “Our Father” as a “free-will” gesture. Period.
Nor are th USCCB any help with which way to go… only this:

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-resources/posture/orans-or-open-hand-prayer-posture.cfm

This is the one place during the Liturgy of the Eucharist where the priest is not acting in a “presidential” capacity on the behalf of the faithful. Instead, BOTH the priest AND the faithful recite the “Our Father.” I will let better people than I argue the pros and cons of the faithful using this position. IMHO you need to inquire with the Pastor of that parish and if not happy with the answer, then contact the Diocesan office as to the Bishop’s instructions regarding this act.

I know that there are several priests on this website and EWTN that are using well reasoned arguments against the faithful using the position. However, unless and until the local Bishop gives instructions one-way or the other OR the Vatican makes a clear statement, then I don’t see an issue.

Holding hands… I heard it’s an abuse, I know as a family we have held hands 😦 however, not as a “kum-bye-yah” type action but more as a family in unity. I’ve been trying to stop the handholding; however, eight-year-old girls don’t always listen to their father and it’s not worth the argument during the Mass… and she’s a child… “… suffer not the children to come unto me…” good enough for our Lord, more than good for me. Besides a unified Family is special… Marrage is a Sacrement and the family created thereof is thru the grace of God…

Merry Christmas!
 
Well-answered. As for the holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer, it’s a common gripe on this forum, and this might help answer it:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1175&CFID=111720021&CFTOKEN=80697736

Basically, it’s not illegitimate unless a cleric asks for it, but it is to be discouraged. It probably originated as a means for families and friends to pray together outside of the liturgy (and our Lord’s Prayer is obviously a common choice of prayer), and some misguided individuals decided to repeat the gesture during the the same segment in the mass as well.
 
On the Concluding Doxology and on the new translation: I would give all our priests a break. Unless it is a new priest who was recently ordained, most of our priests have been saying the old translation every day for years…ten, twenty, thirty years. A priest who has been a priest for 30 years, has used the old translation of the Mass well over 11,000 times (that’s just accounting for one mass a day for 30 years…that’s not including the other Sunday Masses and holy days of obligation, funerals, weddings, quinceneras).

Imagine saying something as easy and repetitive as the Concluding Doxology every day for 30 years and then people expect you to change the way you say it over night. You can practice all you want but it’s going to take a few months to re-write 30 years of programming.

There are going to be slip ups. Especially on the easy, repetitive parts of the Mass. Treat those with charity and don’t come tattling to people on a public forum.
 
😃
PacoG said:
On the Concluding Doxology and on the new translation: I would give all our priests a break. Unless it is a new priest who was recently ordained, most of our priests have been saying the old translation every day for years…ten, twenty, thirty years. A priest who has been a priest for 30 years, has used the old translation of the Mass well over 11,000 times (that’s just accounting for one mass a day for 30 years…that’s not including the other Sunday Masses and holy days of obligation, funerals, weddings, quinceneras).

Imagine saying something as easy and repetitive as the Concluding Doxology every day for 30 years and then people expect you to change the way you say it over night. You can practice all you want but it’s going to take a few months to re-write 30 years of programming.

There are going to be slip ups. Especially on the easy, repetitive parts of the Mass. Treat those with charity and don’t come tattling to people on a public forum.
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Ok sorry guys ill give him a break. he was very elderly so whoever said about the genuflecting may have been right. but another thing that i was concerened about. since the new mass came out durring advent and there is no gloria in advent this parish hasn’t learned the new gloria due to the fact that lent is fast approacthing and then there will be 6 sundays without it . so durring the time for the gloria the choir sang angels we have heard on high. granted it does say gloria in excelcis deo but is that acceptable honestly i was just so tired yesterday that was the main thing i was questioing but in my hurry to post i forgot :o
Merry Christmas everyone. thanks for making me feel welcome on the forums

😃
 
taylormcbee said:
😃
so durring the time for the gloria the choir sang angels we have heard on high. granted it does say gloria in excelcis deo but is that acceptable honestly i was just so tired yesterday that was the main thing i was questioing but in my hurry to post i forgot :o
Merry Christmas everyone. thanks for making me feel welcome on the forums 😃
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:eek: That is NOT right! The Gloria hasn’t changed all the much, you’d think they could manage it. That’s what choir practice is for.

And a blessed & merry Christmas to you! :heaven:
 
taylormcbee said:
it was going well until the priest when saying the words of consencration did not lift the host all the way up or genuflect . he did genuflect but not untill he had consencrated both the body and precious blood.
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The rubrics don’t state exactly how high to life the host. So as long as he didn’t leave it on the patten he fulfilled the basics.
As for genuflection, he should genuflect after the consecration of the host, however he might have knee problems and once is all he can muster.
also when doing the concluding doxology he said through him with him in the in the unity of the holy spritit but the new missall says through him with him o god all mighty father
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Old habits die hard.
also durring the our father some of the parisohoners held hands but what i found the most shocking is at least 85 percent were using the orans postion. it was actually in this churches bulliten to use the orans posture a while back
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There’s not much that can be done about spontaneous hand holding. There’s nothing to prevent the laity from using the orans posture during the Our Father but it also should not be put forth as any kind of norm by the pastor. Perhaps it was suggested as an alternative to holding hands?
 
Bonnie said:
:eek: That is NOT right! The Gloria hasn’t changed all the much, you’d think they could manage it. That’s what choir practice is for.

:
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Wow. Just wow.

First of all, angels we have heard on high should not be used in place of the Gloria, however. There is an accurate gloria to the same tune.

But the Gloria HAS changed…a LOT…so much so that new music has to be written because the words do not fit in the same places if using old music. And in the same time that a choir is practicing for all the other Christmas music. It has been very taxing on my choir to learn the new gloria for ordinary time while preparing for Christmas. (We are using the Christmas gloria to the tune of " angels we have heard" so I have a cantor singing it during the Christmas season).

And this is just ONE. We of course have to learn more eventually.

I would ask before casting such judgements that you actually know what you are talking about.
 
agapewolf said:
I would ask before casting such judgements that you actually know what you are talking about.
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Well, all I can say is that our choir, which consists of enthusiastic amateurs, managed it. Words & music both. While I’m not happy with them because of the quality of their music, I can say they give it the old college try! 😃
 
Bonnie said:
Well, all I can say is that our choir, which consists of enthusiastic amateurs, managed it. Words & music both. While I’m not happy with them because of the quality of their music, I can say they give it the old college try! 😃
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That’s not all you said. You said the gloria hasn’t changed all that much it should be managed.

And that is completely inaccurate. The gloria has been the most exhaustive issue in the translation changes for music directors. I chose a mass based on the gloria because it is textbook awkward to sing. THe amount of stresses in the phrasing of the words makes it extremely difficult to write something that is singable music to it.

You saying that is hasn’t changed much shows you really don’t have an idea about it.
 
taylormcbee said:
😃
OK sorry guys ill give him a break. he was very elderly so whoever said about the genuflecting may have been right. but another thing that i was concerened about. since the new mass came out durring advent and there is no gloria in advent this parish hasn’t learned the new gloria due to the fact that lent is fast approacthing and then there will be 6 sundays without it . so durring the time for the gloria the choir sang angels we have heard on high. granted it does say gloria in excelcis deo but is that acceptable honestly i was just so tired yesterday that was the main thing i was questioing but in my hurry to post i forgot :o
Merry Christmas everyone. thanks for making me feel welcome on the forums

😃
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and that has changed a lot!

Our Choir had “open” rehearsals inviting everyone to either come a little early before and stay a little bit after several of the Masses over the last two months so that the faithful could hear the new translations, and as the Gloria has a few different settings, we could hear these too. Hopefully, your choir will use the simpler music settings, or chants, for awhile and you should approach the choir director and suggest something like the open practices as we’ve done for our church.

Also wouldn’t hurt to suggest a study of The Mass… our parish used “A Biblical Walk Through The Mass” ( www.BibleStudyforCatholics.com )! Shows in scripture where the Catholic Mass comes from and covered how the new translations fit. Nicely done, and, IMHO, parts should be included in all RCIA classes with the full version available to the entire parish!

Merry Christmas!
 
agapewolf said:
That’s not all you said. You said the gloria hasn’t changed all that much it should be managed.

And that is completely inaccurate. The gloria has been the most exhaustive issue in the translation changes for music directors. I chose a mass based on the gloria because it is textbook awkward to sing. THe amount of stresses in the phrasing of the words makes it extremely difficult to write something that is singable music to it.

You saying that is hasn’t changed much shows you really don’t have an idea about it.
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I think we’re looking at 2 different things. I meant that the words were not changed much. All I know about the music is that I am not able to sing it (which goes for most music in my case), but our choir managed. If need be, the Gloria can be chanted - most people can manage that. There is no need to substitute a Christmas carol, no matter how pretty, for the Gloria.
 
Bonnie said:
I think we’re looking at 2 different things. I meant that the words were not changed much. All I know about the music is that I am not able to sing it (which goes for most music in my case), but our choir managed. If need be, the Gloria can be chanted - most people can manage that. There is no need to substitute a Christmas carol, no matter how pretty, for the Gloria.
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No we aren’t. The words are VERY different. Thats my point. It is impossible to just “tweak” a little music because it “hasn’t changed that much”. You are downplaying something that was no small thing.

Chant is difficult to learn as well. Especially the standard one…it is not very “glorious” as the notes keep going down in pitch.

And as I said, “Angels” should not substitute, but there is a gloria written to the tune.

Please stop making such judgements on this. It is just plain incorrect.
 
Friends, let’s not derail this into whether the Gloria needs a new tune composed for it or not. 🙂
taylormcbee said:
😃
Ok sorry guys ill give him a break. he was very elderly so whoever said about the genuflecting may have been right. but another thing that i was concerened about. since the new mass came out durring advent and there is no gloria in advent this parish hasn’t learned the new gloria due to the fact that lent is fast approacthing and then there will be 6 sundays without it . so durring the time for the gloria the choir sang angels we have heard on high. granted it does say gloria in excelcis deo but is that acceptable honestly i was just so tired yesterday that was the main thing i was questioing but in my hurry to post i forgot :o
Merry Christmas everyone. thanks for making me feel welcome on the forums

😃
Click to expand...
Now that’s liturgical abuse. :eek:
 
agapewolf said:
No we aren’t. The words are VERY different. Thats my point. It is impossible to just “tweak” a little music because it “hasn’t changed that much”. You are downplaying something that was no small thing.

Chant is difficult to learn as well. Especially the standard one…it is not very “glorious” as the notes keep going down in pitch.
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It doesn’t need to be chanted. This is perfectly legal as it was played at an OF (Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago)

youtube.com/watch?v=BrRLptJVPmM&feature=related
 
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