Would this count as impotence?

[Kid_Charlemagne]

In any case, in real life, if a guy can orgasm by masturbating, he isn’t fully impotent; it’s likely a psychosexual thing and could possibly be fixed with therapy or medication. This would be the best course of action.

Also, not sure how the man would engage in the marital act without climaxing… I mean, if he is aroused, but 100% can’t orgasm, isn’t it a bit pointless? He’ll just end up incredibly frustrated all the time. If he wasn’t getting medical help, abstinence would make the most sense.
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So if it’s the wife who is unable to reach a climax from the marital act alone, do you think that she also could be “fixed” with “therapy or medication”? I doubt it. And for the sake of our premise, neither can the husband be “fixed”. So that’s the circumstance we have to address.

As far as the marital act being “pointless” for him in that case, again…given that 75% of women cannot reach climax from the marital act alone, is it “pointless” for her too? Why does she even bother? (Procreation aside - let’s assume it’s not her fertile time of the month or even that she’s barren or post-menopausal). I would assume it’s far from pointless to her - it’s probably very emotionally rewarding as a form of intimacy with her mate, and very pleasurable for her too (just that it falls short of giving her climax)

So back to our hypothetical couple - neither one can achieve climax from the marital act and that’s not going to change. Yet they love each other very deeply and both very much enjoy the intimacy of the marital act. You are saying they must live as brother and sister and cannot share the physical intimacy of married people? Even though they be sacramentally married and all?

That can’t be right. Now we know that God can’t ask something of them that they physically are not capable of (in this case, climaxing from the marital act alone), or else God would be unjust. So what options are there for such a couple?

You sure it’s not complicated at all?

 

[Rau]

…So back to our hypothetical couple - neither one can achieve climax from the marital act and that’s not going to change. Yet they love each other very deeply and both very much enjoy the intimacy of the marital act.** You are saying they must live as brother and sister and cannot share the physical intimacy of married people? **Even though they be sacramentally married and all?

He did not say that (bolded) at all. He expressed a personal perspective on what he thought might make the most sense. [And that would be a matter for each such hypothetical couple to judge.] He didn’t express any statement about what must be done (for the sake of morality, or otherwise).

 

[Rau]

…Now we know that God can’t ask something of them that they physically are not capable of (in this case, climaxing from the marital act alone), or else God would be unjust. So what options are there for such a couple?

What makes you sure that God is asking them to do anything in particular at all? It’s as though you have a premise that this marriage, at this time, must involve orgasms.

 

[Kid_Charlemagne]

What makes you sure that God is asking them to do anything in particular at all? It’s as though you have a premise that this marriage, at this time, must involve orgasms.

No, I’m asking what is the Church’s stance regarding our hypothetical couple.

Again, their options boil down to three (so it seems to me):

A). Abstain and live as brother and sister

B). Continue to engage in the marital act, but resign themselves to never climaxing, ever.

C). Engage in the marital act, and then help each other achieve climax afterwards, through other acts which could probably be summed up as mutual masturbation.

Now keep in mind, our couple is properly, sacramentally married and want very much to engage in marital relations. Left to their own devices, I’m gonna guess they would choose option C. The question is, do they sin by doing so? If yes, then the correct answer must be A) or B) but those choices are going to be very hard on them and seem excessively rigid - after all, they did get properly married and it’s not their fault that they cannot climax from the marital act.

 

[Rau]

No, I’m asking what is the Church’s stance regarding our hypothetical couple.

Again, their options boil down to three (so it seems to me):

A). Abstain and live as brother and sister

B). Continue to engage in the marital act, but resign themselves to never climaxing, ever.

C). Engage in the marital act, and then help each other achieve climax afterwards, through other acts which could probably be summed up as mutual masturbation.

Now keep in mind, our couple is properly, sacramentally married and want very much to engage in marital relations. Left to their own devices, I’m gonna guess they would choose option C. The question is, do they sin by doing so? If yes, then the correct answer must be A) or B) but those choices are going to be very hard on them and seem excessively rigid - after all, they did get properly married and it’s not their fault that they cannot climax from the marital act.

Your prior post went in entirely other directions, and you’ve not respond to the points I put to you about that.

The couple should decide for themselves if and when they will engage in marital relations according to their circumstances. They should not engage in morally wrong acts.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

So if it’s the wife who is unable to reach a climax from the marital act alone, do you think that she also could be “fixed” with “therapy or medication”? I doubt it. And for the sake of our premise, neither can the husband be “fixed”. So that’s the circumstance we have to address.

As far as the marital act being “pointless” for him in that case, again…given that 75% of women cannot reach climax from the marital act alone, is it “pointless” for her too? Why does she even bother? (Procreation aside - let’s assume it’s not her fertile time of the month or even that she’s barren or post-menopausal). I would assume it’s far from pointless to her - it’s probably very emotionally rewarding as a form of intimacy with her mate, and very pleasurable for her too (just that it falls short of giving her climax)

So back to our hypothetical couple - neither one can achieve climax from the marital act and that’s not going to change. Yet they love each other very deeply and both very much enjoy the intimacy of the marital act. You are saying they must live as brother and sister and cannot share the physical intimacy of married people? Even though they be sacramentally married and all?

That can’t be right. Now we know that God can’t ask something of them that they physically are not capable of (in this case, climaxing from the marital act alone), or else God would be unjust. So what options are there for such a couple?

You sure it’s not complicated at all?

Well, biologically, intercourse doesn’t necessarily arouse a woman… depends on the woman - everyone is different. A “normal” woman could very well struggle to orgasm from sex alone, as you stated. There is nothing to “fix” here.

Now, we know that sex has 2 purposes that are intrinsically linked - procreation and unity. On pg 28 of the first article I linked above, JPII discusses how, if a woman does not climax ever during sex, she will find it hard to forgive her husband. They should both put each other first and try their best to come together, but as we have established, that isn’t always possible. This is the unity aspect of sex. The husband can help the wife to come afterwards if she hasn’t already, because they will have completed the life giving portion and the woman just needs a little more help to fully enjoy the experience and bond with her husband.

The male orgasm is intrinsically linked to the entire life-giving purpose of sex. There IS something wrong with him if he can’t orgasm from vaginal intercourse. If the man 100% cannot climax inside the woman, then the couple cannot have sex that is open to life. He is basically fully impotent as far as morals go - masturbation is not an option. Then, since husband and wife cannot have intercourse, the wife cannot orgasm either since it would be outside of the context of open-to-life sex and would just be selfish masturbation.

Now, if they want to “try” and have sex, because they believe that it will just take some practice to achieve orgasm the natural way, I believe that would be permissible. Intentions matter, even if they keep failing.

It really isn’t complicated. It’s exactly the same as if the husband was fully impotent.

I’m also slightly confused by your use of the phrase “marital act”. Orgasm does not equal marital act. Open to life sex does. Any form of masturbation has nothing to do with the marital act if it occurs outside of the context of foreplay or just after sex, in the case of the woman. It’s just self-gratification.

God does not ask them to do anything impossible - he asks them to NOT do something sinful.

Imagine a 2nd hypothetical: a woman has a life-threatening condition - she could die if she gets pregnant. This condition also affects her cycles so that NFP is impossible to use (I have no idea if this would occur in real life, this is purely hypothetical). In this case, if the couple are convinced that vaginal intercourse is 100% out if the question, then their only recourse is abstinence - masturbation is out of the question.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

The couple should decide for themselves if and when they will engage in marital relations according to their circumstances. They should not engage in morally wrong acts.

Yes, this says it all (in a far more concise manner than I managed!)

 

[ShrodingersCat]

No, I’m asking what is the Church’s stance regarding our hypothetical couple.

Again, their options boil down to three (so it seems to me):

A). Abstain and live as brother and sister

B). Continue to engage in the marital act, but resign themselves to never climaxing, ever.

C). Engage in the marital act, and then help each other achieve climax afterwards, through other acts which could probably be summed up as mutual masturbation.

Now keep in mind, our couple is properly, sacramentally married and want very much to engage in marital relations. Left to their own devices, I’m gonna guess they would choose option C. The question is, do they sin by doing so? If yes, then the correct answer must be A) or B) but those choices are going to be very hard on them and seem excessively rigid - after all, they did get properly married and it’s not their fault that they cannot climax from the marital act.

Assuming that they were never able to have vaginal intercourse that resulted in ejaculation, this could well be grounds for annulment. If they wanted to remain married, they could abstain fully, or attempt to have sex in hope that it will just take practice, but they haven’t “had marital relations” if the man hasn’t ejaculated.

In the same way that it would be very inappropriate for a husband to “leave his wife hanging” every time they have sex, it would (in my opinion) be inappropriate for the wife to be able to orgasm from this “vaginal intercourse that doesn’t result in male climax” situation - the man will be permanently frustrated. They would be better to abstain altogether if there is no hope of fixing the man.

 

[felix_mandon]

Thank you for sources!
Have been searching days to find an answer!

Love and Responsibility by JPII. There is a review article at the link below, which sort of implies what I said on pg. 28 but isn’t said explicitly; it’s in the book though, apparently.

catholicculture.com/jp2_on_l&r.pdf

Good News about Sex and Marriage: Answers to Your Honest Questions about Catholic Teaching by Christopher West, directly quoted here:

spot.colorado.edu/~tooley/CatholicismOralSex.html

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I know a man who has conditioned himself (mostly by fantasizing) so that he will only finish during a certain act…and I know another who has essentially been conditioned to not finish during sex.

Well, then they can uncondition then.
BTW. I don’t believe it is true.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

Thank you for sources!
Have been searching days to find an answer!

No problem! Took me a while to find them too online!

 

[Phemie]

Can you point to the sources you are referencing here?

I have to say that the book that my parents were given by their parish priest before they got married pretty much said the same thing. In fact it went a bit further. It said that it behooved the man to make sure his wife achieved orgasm by caresses if necessary after he’d climaxed and couched it in terms of making the marital act pleasurable for her so that she would be less likely to sin by refusing his requests.