Would this mass count for Sunday?

[Vico]

I suggest he ask a priest because I was told by a very reliable priest that the reading have to be Sunday readings. I never heard of changing the rules to fit our “modern life”!! God Bless, Memaw

Well, you will have after reading this!

Be sure to read this from CAF and note that evening time is given as after 12:00 PM, or after 2:00 PM, or after 4 PM, based upon the canon law commentary.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=20461

Eucharisticum Mysterium allowed the anticipated evening liturgy for Sunday or holy day of obligation, and use the Mass assigned in the calendar to the Sunday or holy day of obligation. (As you posted.) And states that “The purpose of this concession is in fact to enable the Christians of today to celebrate more easily the day of the resurrection of the Lord” This did not become canon law in 1983, rather a less restrictive law was made, and overrides the liturgical. (See Canon 2 and 1248.1 below.)

Eucharisticum Mysterium, Instruction on Eucharistic Worship, Sacred Congregation of Rites, May 25, 1967

28. Anticipating the Sunday and Feast Day Masses on the Previous Evening

Where permission has been granted by the Apostolic See to fulfill the Sunday obligation on the preceding Saturday evening, pastors should explain the meaning of this permission carefully to the faithful and should ensure that the significance of Sunday is not thereby obscured. The purpose of this concession is in fact to enable the Christians of today to celebrate more easily the day of the resurrection of the Lord.

All concessions and contrary customs notwithstanding, when celebrated on Saturday this Mass may be celebrated only in the evening, at times determined by the local Ordinary.

In these cases the Mass celebrated is that assigned in the calendar to Sunday, the homily and the prayer of the faithful are not to be omitted.

What has been said above is equally valid for the Mass on holy days of obligation which for the same reason has been transferred to the preceding evening.

The Mass celebrated on the evening before Pentecost Sunday is the present Mass of the Vigil, with the Creed. Likewise, the Mass celebrated on the evening of Christmas Eve is the Mass of the Vigil but with white vestments, the Alleluia and the Preface of the Nativity, as on the feast. Nevertheless it is not permitted to celebrate the Vigil Mass of Easter Sunday before dusk on Holy Saturday, certainly not before sunset. This Mass is always that of the Easter Vigil, which, by reason of its special significance in the liturgical year and in the whole Christian life, must be celebrated with the liturgical rites laid down for the Vigil on this holy night.

The faithful who begin to celebrate the Sunday or holy day of obligation on the preceding evening may go to Communion at that Mass even if they have already received Communion in the morning. Those who "have received Communion during the Mass of the Easter Vigil, or during the Mass of the Lord’s Nativity, may receive Communion again at the second Easter Mass and at one of the Masses on Christmas Day."80 Likewise “the faithful who go to Communion at the Mass of Chrism on Holy Thursday may again receive Communion at the evening Mass of the same day,” in accordance with the Instruction Tres abhinc annos of May 4, 1967, no. 14.

adoremus.org/eucharisticummysterium.html

CIC (Latin Canon Law)

Can. 2 For the most part the Code does not define the rites which must be observed in celebrating liturgical actions. Therefore, liturgical laws in force until now retain their force unless one of them is contrary to the canons of the Code.

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

 

[MN19]

Thanks for all of the (name removed by moderator)ut, I ended up going to the vigil mass earlier tonight so there won’t be any dispute over whether I fulfilled the obligation or not.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

In order for a Mass to be counted for Sunday, it HAS to be the Sunday readings and you should ask a reliable priest about the time situation. I would go again to a Sunday Mass. God Bless, Memaw

The fulfillment of the obligation in canon law to assist at Mass does not depend on the choice of readings. What you write, therefore, is not correct.

As to the time issue, as a general principle, there are two schools of thought that are in conflict. Neither the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts nor the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has seen fit to resolve the dubium.

I am not sure why you suggest turning to a “reliable” priest…whatever that means. In this case, the bishop himself has spoken. Without knowing the disposition that the bishop of the diocese makes regarding confirmation Masses on Saturday afternoon relative to the Sunday obligation, the best any priest can do is speculate whereas, again, the bishop has spoken. Actually, there is more that one permutation this could take by which the bishop’s answer would be completely correct…but that would require knowing details that are not supplied.

The original poster is not clear if the bishop is simply a retired bishop from somewhere or is, in fact, the retired bishop of the diocese. That is a significant fact in itself. I would defer to the bishop in either event – but above all if he was the retired diocesan bishop.

I used to accompany my bishop on his confirmation tour. It was over a hundred confirmations each year. The bishops invariably know what they are doing. I have rarely met one who did not know his mind on anything or any issue. Since I know neither the bishop nor the diocese, I can only say that I would presume that the bishop certainly knows of what he is speaking.

 

[MN19]

^
I believe he is a retired bishop of the diocese.

 

[Inquiringperson]

In order for a Mass to be counted for Sunday, it HAS to be the Sunday readings and you should ask a reliable priest about the time situation. I would go again to a Sunday Mass. God Bless, Memaw

Not so. According to Fr. Mark Gurtner, JCL (JCL means that he would be licensed to teach canon law in a major seminary), Father says this about Mass readings and the Sunday Obligation.
"Fr. Gurtner:

Nothing in the law states that it has to be a particular “kind” of Mass in order to fulfill the obligation. Nothing in the law states even that to fulfill the Sunday obligation, for example, it must be a Mass in which the Sunday readings are heard. Thus, if one were to attend a Sunday afternoon Nuptial Mass, this would certainly fulfill the obligation. If one were to attend a Saturday evening Funeral Mass, the obligation would be fulfilled. Even if the celebrant illicitly changed the readings and prayers for a Sunday Mass, the obligation would still be fulfilled.

The start time for an anticipatory Mass is as directed by the Archbishop of each Diocese. I would say the use of the Saturday readings should be a clue that that Mass is not a Sunday anticipatory Mass.

Saturday evening Masses to fulfill your obligation would start at 4 PM at the earliest. Once again, according to Fr. Gurtner:
"Fr. Gurtner:

Returning to the notion of the Mass on the “evening of the preceding day,” the precise meaning of this was set by Pope Pius XII in the Apostolic Constitution, Christus Dominus (1953). “Evening” is always to be understood as 4 p.m. and after. Thus, any Mass which begins before 4 p.m. on the evening preceding a Sunday or Holy Day does not fulfill the obligation.

I would say that if the bishop himself (even a retired bishop) told those present that it counts for Sunday, they would be absolutely safe in following what they were told.

Unless one would know exactly that the bishop was wrong, then I would say yes, those present would not be sinning in doing what bishop told them. But I am not sure the bishop is right here. Once again, according to Fr. Gurtner:
Fr. Gurtner:

I would argue that in those places in which bishops have “dispensed” 4 p.m. as the starting time for Saturday evening Mass, such dispensations are invalid. First, one who has the power to dispense cannot dispense from those things which are essentially constitutive of a juridic act (canon 86). Thus, a diocesan bishop does not have the power to dispense from what “evening” is. Evening is evening. A diocesan bishop has not the power to make afternoon be evening. Second, even if one were to capitulate that this could be done, canon law instructs us that a dispensation is the relaxation of a merely ecclesiastical law “in a particular case” (canon 85). Dispensations cannot be given in a blanket way. They can only be given for specific persons in a specified instance, not generally and indefinitely. Only the Holy See can make such provision, and in that case it would not be a dispensation but an indult (we will save that topic for another article).

Thus, the diocesan bishop does not have the power to say, “I dispense the 4 p.m. starting time of Saturday evening Mass for the diocese.” He has not the power to do it, not only because he cannot dispense from what “evening” is but also because he has not the power to give general, indefinite dispensations. Those who attend Mass before 4 p.m. under these circumstances do not fulfill the Sunday obligation.

Granted, in the OP’s situation, this wasn’t a “general, indefinite” dispensation, but I don’t think that the bishop has a power to make the afternoon be considered evening. However, (assuming that Fr. Gurtner is right and I have made the correct interpretation that Fr. Gurtner’s commentary applies here) we must be charitable with the bishop, as the bishop may have made an honest mistake. Although he is a bishop, his specialty might have been in theology and not canon law. Of course, that is assuming that Fr. Gurtner’s commentary is correct. Here is the link to where I got my info.
blogs.nd.edu/oblation/2011/04/13/liturgy-and-canon-law/

 

[Inquiringperson]

**
As to the time issue, as a general principle, there are two schools of thought that are in conflict. Neither the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts nor the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has seen fit to resolve the dubium**.

I am not sure why you suggest turning to a “reliable” priest…whatever that means. In this case, the bishop himself has spoken. Without knowing the disposition that the bishop of the diocese makes regarding confirmation Masses on Saturday afternoon relative to the Sunday obligation, the best any priest can do is speculate whereas, again, the bishop has spoken. Actually, there is more that one permutation this could take by which the bishop’s answer would be completely correct…but that would require knowing details that are not supplied.

The original poster is not clear if the bishop is simply a retired bishop from somewhere or is, in fact, the retired bishop of the diocese. That is a significant fact in itself. I would defer to the bishop in either event – but above all if he was the retired diocesan bishop.

I used to accompany my bishop on his confirmation tour. It was over a hundred confirmations each year. The bishops invariably know what they are doing. I have rarely met one who did not know his mind on anything or any issue. Since I know neither the bishop nor the diocese, I can only say that I would presume that the bishop certainly knows of what he is speaking.

Huh, that’s interesting to know that this dubium is still unresolved in the eyes of the CDWDS.

 

[Red_James]

In order for a Mass to be counted for Sunday, it HAS to be the Sunday readings and you should ask a reliable priest about the time situation. I would go again to a Sunday Mass. God Bless, Memaw

Not true, every summer my parish moves our patron saint’s feast day to a Sunday and uses specific readings regarding our patron saint and not the Sunday readings. The diocesan bishop and a few auxiliary bishops have celebrated the solemn high mass on that day and none of them said a word about the readings being changed.
I could be wrong, but the only time the readings cannot be changed on a Sunday are on Sundays in the seasons of Advent, Lent, and Easter. The readings for Sunday during Ordinary time can be changed, such as when the feast day of the parish’s patron saint is celebrated on a Sunday.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Not so. According to Fr. Mark Gurtner, JCL (JCL means that he would be licensed to teach canon law in a major seminary), Father says this about Mass readings and the Sunday Obligation.

Saturday evening Masses to fulfill your obligation would start at 4 PM at the earliest. Once again, according to Fr. Gurtner:

Unless one would know exactly that the bishop was wrong, then I would say yes, those present would not be sinning in doing what bishop told them. But I am not sure the bishop is right here. Once again, according to Fr. Gurtner:

Granted, in the OP’s situation, this wasn’t a “general, indefinite” dispensation, but I don’t think that the bishop has a power to make the afternoon be considered evening. However, (assuming that Fr. Gurtner is right and I have made the correct interpretation that Fr. Gurtner’s commentary applies here) we must be charitable with the bishop, as the bishop may have made an honest mistake. Although he is a bishop, his specialty might have been in theology and not canon law. Of course, that is assuming that Fr. Gurtner’s commentary is correct. Here is the link to where I got my info.
blogs.nd.edu/oblation/2011/04/13/liturgy-and-canon-law/

While I agree with Father on his first assertion that you cite regarding fulfillment of the Sunday Mass obligation…I would tread extremely cautiously on his latter declarations, which go against entire national societies of canon law as well as the determinations of bishops in various countries. There are several dioceses that have made other disposition and it is not for us who are priests to say concerning bishops that those dispositions are invalid. That matter rests with the Holy See.

As to the second point, there are several dispositions that can resolve the issue of this particular Mass any one of which the bishop may have in his mind and we do not know all that stands behind what the bishop said…nor do we need to know it; he is a bishop and is there on behalf of the bishop of the diocese and has spoken in that capacity.

I don’t find it useful to call into question the competence of this unknown bishop. If he governed a diocese, I can assure you that he had by the end, if not actually at the beginning, a quite good understanding of what bishops could and could not do.

In any event, we don’t know what the disposition is in that diocese. He would be in this parish to confirm because the diocesan bishop wanted or permitted it…the retired bishop very well could be informing the people of either what he himself had enacted and his successor has kept in place or what the diocesan bishop has himself determined relative to the Sunday Mass obligation. That would be my presumption.

I see no reason to cast doubt upon the bishop.

 

[Vico]

T…

As to the time issue, as a general principle, there are two schools of thought that are in conflict. Neither the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts nor the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has seen fit to resolve the dubium…

Canon law trumps liturgical law.

Can. 2 For the most part the Code does not determine the rites to be observed in the celebration of liturgical actions. Accordingly, liturgical laws which have been in effect hitherto retain their force, except those which may be contrary to the canons of the Code.

Also, the documents at the time of the drafting of the 1983 canon law, show that the time for fulfillment of the day of obligation was considered to be a concession. A concession is a favor which means it is not strictly interpreted.

Exegetical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law (8 Volume Set, 2004, Midwest Theological Forum) cites Communicationes 15, pp. 251-253, that the canon is “intentionally ‘general in order to avoid casuist situations and anxieties.’”

 

[Memaw]

Canon law trumps liturgical law.

Can. 2 For the most part the Code does not determine the rites to be observed in the celebration of liturgical actions. Accordingly, liturgical laws which have been in effect hitherto retain their force, except those which may be contrary to the canons of the Code.

Also, the documents at the time of the drafting of the 1983 canon law, show that the time for fulfillment of the day of obligation was considered to be a concession. A concession is a favor which means it is not strictly interpreted.

Exegetical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law (8 Volume Set, 2004, Midwest Theological Forum) cites Communicationes 15, pp. 251-253, that the canon is “intentionally ‘general in order to avoid casuist situations and anxieties.’”

Then would a Funeral Mass on Sat. afternoon qualify for a Sunday obligation also?? Seems this sort of thing causes casuist situations and anxieties. God Bless, Memaw

 

[TheDoctor]

Then would a Funeral Mass on Sat. afternoon qualify for a Sunday obligation also?? Seems this sort of thing causes casuist situations and anxieties. God Bless, Memaw

Yes. As would a Nuptial Mass (e.g. ours was scheduled to start at 3:30 but due to traffic and members of my family to whom start time is a suggestion and not a rule, our Nuptial Mass did not start until after 4 - and Father did mention that it would also fulfill the Sunday obligation).

 

[Neofight]

I suggest he ask a priest because I was told by a very reliable priest that the reading have to be Sunday readings. I never heard of changing the rules to fit our “modern life”!! God Bless, Memaw

The rule haven’t changed, you just heard them wrong.

 

[Neofight]

Then would a Funeral Mass on Sat. afternoon qualify for a Sunday obligation also?? Seems this sort of thing causes casuist situations and anxieties. God Bless, Memaw

Anxieties lessen when one worries less about what the rule might be or should be, an instead focuses on the love and mercy of God.

 

[Vico]

Then would a Funeral Mass on Sat. afternoon qualify for a Sunday obligation also?? Seems this sort of thing causes casuist situations and anxieties. God Bless, Memaw

Yes, ritual Masses are good too, and Roman (OF or EF), Divine Worship (Anglican Catholic), Ambrosian, Mosarabic, Braga, Carmelite, etc., and also those of a different Catholic church sui iuris. Those that claim that certain readings must be used are ignoring this canon that it need only be a Catholic rite. “CIC Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite …”. We may fulfill the obligation in any Catholic Mass (or Divine Liturgy) including any of the twenty-three eastern Catholic churches sui iuris. There are certainly different readings between the Catholic sui iruis traditions because different lectionaries are used.

Also:

“The precept may be satisfied at any Catholic Mass, i.e…, not only when the texts are those of Sunday or holy day.”

New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law by John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, Thomas Joseph Green, p. 1445.

 

[baliano]

According to some of these responses we can do about anything we want on Saturday and call it good for Sunday! Why not just attend Mass any day during the week and call it good.

I think the point being overlooked in this thread is the sad fact we lack the discipline, maybe it’s a lack of devotion, to attend Mass on both Saturday and Sunday. Vatican II, individualist Bishops, whatever the reason, we seem to be spinning out of control as well as losing our sense of reverence and devotion.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

According to some of these responses we can do about anything we want on Saturday and call it good for Sunday! Why not just attend Mass any day during the week and call it good.

I think the point being overlooked in this thread is the sad fact we lack the discipline, maybe it’s a lack of devotion, to attend Mass on both Saturday and Sunday. Vatican II, individualist Bishops, whatever the reason, we seem to be spinning out of control as well as losing our sense of reverence and devotion.

As a priest, I find your post very less than helpful.

When you have made the sacrifice to actually become a priest and then find yourself juggling 3, 4, or even 5 pastoral responsibilities, I would be glad then to hear your thoughts.

I remember a time when I had not the luxury of even offering a weekday Mass on Saturday due to the required bination/trination while contending with the canonically imposed limits while also having to supply at least one Mass that would fulfill the obligation to multiple communities, which included some places only having the option of an anticipated Mass on Saturday.

I distinctly remember one vivid occasion when a confrere was taken ill suddenly and I confronted having eight scheduled Masses, which necessitated an emergency call to the vicar general for dispensation to exceed trination. He asked if I had another option. I asked if he had anyone he could send to help me. He responded, “I grant the dispensation.”

“Losing our sense of reverence and devotion,” you say.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Similar question discussed at length here including comments from 2 priests:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1009027&highlight=saturday+vigil+mass+readings&page=2

In short, the readings make no difference on whether or not the Mass fulfills the Sunday obligation. According to FrDavid in the thread, the Mass must start after 4 PM according to Canon Law to be valid however in this case we have the good Bishop who said your obligation for Sunday is fulfilled so there’s that.

Bottom line: You will never knew for sure from this wise and venerable forum if your obligation was fulfilled or not so let your conscience be your guide. If in your heart you think you should go to Mass go. If you stay home, based on the Bishop’s instructions, I don’t see the sin.

Today, it is a portion of the Americans who contend that the Mass must start after 4 relative to fulfilling the Sunday obligation. In fact there are two dioceses in the United States whose cathedrals have anticipated Masses at 2:30 on Saturday afternoon, so even the Americans are not in agreement with that position.

This writer speaks to what is the position in Spain, Italy, Ireland, and the United Kingdom. While we await a clarification from the appropriate dicastery of the Holy See, being European, I go with the European thought on this matter until the dubium is resolved one way or the other.

canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2014/12/08/a-question-on-mass-start-times-that-warrants-attention/

 

[Vico]

According to some of these responses we can do about anything we want on Saturday and call it good for Sunday! Why not just attend Mass any day during the week and call it good.

I think the point being overlooked in this thread is the sad fact we lack the discipline, maybe it’s a lack of devotion, to attend Mass on both Saturday and Sunday. Vatican II, individualist Bishops, whatever the reason, we seem to be spinning out of control as well as losing our sense of reverence and devotion.

Just curious, which post had that “we can do about anything we want on Saturday and call it good for Sunday”? I did not see it.

The concession was given so the the faithful have more opportunity to assist at the Mass.

 

[dans0622]

… Once again, according to Fr. Gurtner:

…

Granted, in the OP’s situation, this wasn’t a “general, indefinite” dispensation, but I don’t think that the bishop has a power to make the afternoon be considered evening. However, (assuming that Fr. Gurtner is right and I have made the correct interpretation that Fr. Gurtner’s commentary applies here) we must be charitable with the bishop, as the bishop may have made an honest mistake. Although he is a bishop, his specialty might have been in theology and not canon law. Of course, that is assuming that Fr. Gurtner’s commentary is correct. Here is the link to where I got my info.
blogs.nd.edu/oblation/2011/04/13/liturgy-and-canon-law/

Certainly, the notion of “dispensation” (i.e., a relaxation of an ecclesiastical law) has nothing to do with how a word or obligation is defined.

The question is whether or not a diocesan bishop can issue some sort of general, executive norm (see canon 31) which lays down when “evening” starts in his diocese, for the purposes of the Sunday obligation. I don’t see why he can’t, as long as his own norms are in accord with the law he is trying to enforce/define. I wonder if any bishops have done this…

If a bishop stated that “evening” is any time after noon, I might respond by raising an eyebrow since I tend to think that “evening” (vesper), in a ecclesiastical/liturgical setting, means something a little later in the day…at least after *none *(3 pm).

Dan

 

[Memaw]

Certainly, the notion of “dispensation” (i.e., a relaxation of an ecclesiastical law) has nothing to do with how a word or obligation is defined.

The question is whether or not a diocesan bishop can issue some sort of general, executive norm (see canon 31) which lays down when “evening” starts in his diocese, for the purposes of the Sunday obligation. I don’t see why he can’t, as long as his own norms are in accord with the law he is trying to enforce/define. I wonder if any bishops have done this…

If a bishop stated that “evening” is any time after noon, I might respond by raising an eyebrow since I tend to think that “evening” (vesper), in a ecclesiastical/liturgical setting, means something a little later in the day…at least after *none *(3 pm).

Dan

I called my Chancery Office and they told me in order for the Mass to fulfill the Sunday obligation it has to be after 4:30 on Sat. and it does HAVE to be the Sunday readings. And they have never heard of a Bishop giving permission for a funeral, wedding or any other special Mass said earlier in the day to be allowed to fulfill the Sunday obligation. The rules should be the same everywhere. I think I will follow our Bishop All ‘special’ Masses have to be said before 2 pm so they don’t interfere with the Sat. evening Sunday vigil Mass. God Bless, Memaw