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CilladeRoma
Guest
It is both. Why is that so hard to understand?
Would you agree that the below list has broken down belief in the Real Presence?
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Dovekin
Guest
Poor catechesis indeed!
Catholic Answers had a good article Symbol, reality or both? explaining the real teaching.
Modern catholics have a highly developed understanding of symbols because they see images of what is far away when they turn on their TV. “A sacrament is symbol that effects what it symbolizes.” is how I was taught it. We cannot expect people to deny what is obviously true.
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steph03
Guest
None of the above. This is more a reflection of society in general. Protestants (Bible as the word of God, inherrant, etc.) are facing identical problems (60% of Baptists today say the Bible contain mistakes…) … Same with hindus and Buddhists. The is a worldwide phenomenon to no longer accept absolute truths regardless of the faith. It is almost prophetical in nature, the human race as a whole has become more skeptical and naive at the same time. They have never had access to so much information like they do today, and have an opinion on everything yet know so little. So what you mention has nothing to do with the problems you are pointing to.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
I agree it is both with the most primary role as the Holy Sacrifice, which is why a priest can say Mass for us without anyone there and we can have Masses said for people who are not there.
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RogueSemicolon
Guest
I highly recommend another little book on the topic of the Eucharist, if one has yet to read it: God is Near Us: the Eucharist, the Heart of Life, by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.
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OraLabora
Guest
As a public prayer it is to gather as a community to worship God. The two are not mutually exclusive. Weaken the community and you weaken communion. Doing so dishonours God just as lack of reverence dishonours God. As you do it to others, you do it to Christ.
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Brian_K
Guest
Regarding shaking hands at the sign of peace, I see it as an opportunity to try to see Christ in others and and strive to let them see Him in me.
I think the rationalism and egalitarianism of the last few centuries have diminished belief in the sacred in general. Presumptuousness has become a secular virtue. Many see themselves as customers to whom the world owes sales pitch rather than created beings who owe everything to the One Who made and sustains them.
I think it would be helpful when dealing with our fellow man and ourselves to remember that our sense of being created, versus being the central observer of the universe, is something we have to work hard and seek God’s grace to cultivate. The more we treat all of creation with patience and charity, the more deeply God can enter into the dark spaces of doubt. Then “glad-handing” can become “communing”, non-formal clothing can become “non-pretentious”, and communion in the hand seen as less of a right to our dignity and more a sense of the profound trust our Lord puts in us to handle him directly.
I think the rationalism and egalitarianism of the last few centuries have diminished belief in the sacred in general. Presumptuousness has become a secular virtue. Many see themselves as customers to whom the world owes sales pitch rather than created beings who owe everything to the One Who made and sustains them.
I think it would be helpful when dealing with our fellow man and ourselves to remember that our sense of being created, versus being the central observer of the universe, is something we have to work hard and seek God’s grace to cultivate. The more we treat all of creation with patience and charity, the more deeply God can enter into the dark spaces of doubt. Then “glad-handing” can become “communing”, non-formal clothing can become “non-pretentious”, and communion in the hand seen as less of a right to our dignity and more a sense of the profound trust our Lord puts in us to handle him directly.
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melonhead
Guest
I throw in with others and say no to the list, and that lack of faith and poor catechesis are responsible for lack of faith in the Real Presence.
That being said, I think #2, 4, and 6 could definitely be symptoms of lack of belief in the Real Presence.
That being said, I think #2, 4, and 6 could definitely be symptoms of lack of belief in the Real Presence.
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GLam1761
Guest
I recently read Kay Arthur’s “Our Covenant God”, it seems
that the REAL meaning of the Eucharistic meal or communion
is to “remember” our Covenant w/ Jesus Christ, ie reaffirm our
Baptismal vows!! She doesn’t make a distinction between the
Catholic and Christian denominations!! It might go a LONG WAY
to unify a divided Body of Christians!!
that the REAL meaning of the Eucharistic meal or communion
is to “remember” our Covenant w/ Jesus Christ, ie reaffirm our
Baptismal vows!! She doesn’t make a distinction between the
Catholic and Christian denominations!! It might go a LONG WAY
to unify a divided Body of Christians!!
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Hodos
Guest
The scriptures do not prescribe a means of distribution. Just because someone with a number after his name said it, doesn’t make it true.
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steph03
Guest
But when the person in question is a successor of St Peter, it tends to have some weight.Margaret_Ann:
The scriptures do not prescribe a means of distribution. Just because someone with a number after his name said it, doesn’t make it true.
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Hodos
Guest
Not without scriptural authority. I find it interesting that St. Paul, someone actually commissioned by Christ himself did not provide any specific instructions regarding the Lord’s supper other than confirming the Words of Institution which is the promise of Christ in the sacrament. I have personally received communion in the hand my entire life and am stolidly convinced of the Real Presence of Christ.
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
If memory serves me correctly, an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox priest actually cannot celebrate the Divine Liturgy without the presence of at least one other person - simply because of the fact that the liturgical celebration implies the community.
If memory also serves me correct, it’s written in the GIRM that for a priest to celebrate Mass in the Ordinary Form, at least one other person must be present in order to emphasize the fact that liturgy itself is a communal act.
I’m open to correction on both points, however.
If memory also serves me correct, it’s written in the GIRM that for a priest to celebrate Mass in the Ordinary Form, at least one other person must be present in order to emphasize the fact that liturgy itself is a communal act.
I’m open to correction on both points, however.
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steph03
Guest
Same here, only ever attended the oridinary form of the mass and have never received communion other than in the hand. Yet I am 100% certain of the real presence of Christ. But the distribution is what I consider Church discipline, not doctrinal. Church discipline may change depending on circumstances. Doctrine cannot. So Saint paul VI had reservation about communion in the hand, but we are no longer in 1978… What do the later Popes say…steph03:
Not without scriptural authority. I find it interesting that St. Paul, someone actually commissioned by Christ himself did not provide any specific instructions regarding the Lord’s supper other than confirming the Words of Institution which is the promise of Christ in the sacrament. I have personally received communion in the hand my entire life and am stolidly convinced of the Real Presence of Christ.
https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2...eceive-communion-in-the-hand-where-permitted/
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Gorgias
Guest
1: Nope. The priest could be facing the moon, and the Eucharist would still be the Real Presence!
2: Nope. Priests have held communion in the hand for 2000 years, and it doesn’t affect the Real Presence. Neither did “communion in the hand” in the early days of the Church!
3: Priests have always communicated while standing. Are you suggesting that this causes them to lose belief in the Real Presence?
4: That depends on what you mean. Do you mean “in a state of venial sin”? If so, then nope! After all, venial sin is absolved by reception of the Eucharist! On the other hand, if you mean “in a state of mortal sin”, then there’s no difference there – other than adding an additional mortal sin on top of the already-present one!
5: The Sign of Peace? Seriously? OK, then: are you suggesting that people didn’t greet each other in Christ’s presence while He was ministering on earth? Or that the fact that they greeted each other in His presence made them believe in Him any less?
6: I think you have your ‘causes’ and ‘effects’ confused. I might gently suggest that immodest dress at Mass follows a lack of belief, rather than causes it.
Taken as a whole, this list really asks “do you think that the changes in the Mass since 1969 have damaged the faith?”, or, if you put it another way, “isn’t the TLM grand?”
I think that both the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form of the Mass may be celebrated piously. I think that folks can be edified by both forms. I also think that folks can fail to be edified by both. It’s not like one form will magically transform a person into a pious Catholic and the other will transform them into an atheist.
2: Nope. Priests have held communion in the hand for 2000 years, and it doesn’t affect the Real Presence. Neither did “communion in the hand” in the early days of the Church!
3: Priests have always communicated while standing. Are you suggesting that this causes them to lose belief in the Real Presence?
4: That depends on what you mean. Do you mean “in a state of venial sin”? If so, then nope! After all, venial sin is absolved by reception of the Eucharist! On the other hand, if you mean “in a state of mortal sin”, then there’s no difference there – other than adding an additional mortal sin on top of the already-present one!
5: The Sign of Peace? Seriously? OK, then: are you suggesting that people didn’t greet each other in Christ’s presence while He was ministering on earth? Or that the fact that they greeted each other in His presence made them believe in Him any less?
6: I think you have your ‘causes’ and ‘effects’ confused. I might gently suggest that immodest dress at Mass follows a lack of belief, rather than causes it.
Taken as a whole, this list really asks “do you think that the changes in the Mass since 1969 have damaged the faith?”, or, if you put it another way, “isn’t the TLM grand?”
I think that both the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form of the Mass may be celebrated piously. I think that folks can be edified by both forms. I also think that folks can fail to be edified by both. It’s not like one form will magically transform a person into a pious Catholic and the other will transform them into an atheist.
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Hodos
Guest
This I would agree with. I think that practice can reinforce doctrine. However, if you aren’t teaching doctrine then the practice is meaningless. And, as you stated, it is a matter of adiaphora in the sense that the means by which I receive communion doesn’t make communion inefficacious, it can however reinforce our teaching.
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Brendan_64
Guest
But are both reasons to be viewed on an equal footing to each other?
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melonhead
Guest
The priest washes his hands prior the consecration, laity don’t. From the time I walk out of my house with my family until I receive Communion, I have touched door handles, picked stuff off the floor, wiped a toddler’s nose, blown my nose, wiped a toddler’s butt, coughed into my hands, had a kid cough or snot onto my hands, possibly scratched my own rear, and shaken hands with folks who’ve done the same. I realize Communion in the hand is permitted, but that’s my reason for preferring on the tongue.
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Brendan_64
Guest
I agree with that.
Yes, the community is very important, but I think that a view of the Mass that is too ‘horizontal’ and ‘community focussed’ could potentially run the risk of downplaying the centrality of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
If Mass was simply a gathering of the community in prayer, we could gather anywhere, without even the need for a priest.
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
You’ve just described my Sundays to a T!
Plus, I’m usually trying to escort my handicapped daughter up the isle to approach Communion, and trying to keep her hands down so she doesn’t grab the paten, the vestments, the priest’s beard, or whatever else is within arm’s reach. So receiving in the hand isn’t really an option for me when I’m at a Roman parish.
And it’s not an option at all at my home Maronite parish because we do communion by intinction
Plus, I’m usually trying to escort my handicapped daughter up the isle to approach Communion, and trying to keep her hands down so she doesn’t grab the paten, the vestments, the priest’s beard, or whatever else is within arm’s reach. So receiving in the hand isn’t really an option for me when I’m at a Roman parish.
And it’s not an option at all at my home Maronite parish because we do communion by intinction
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