Would You Attend This Mass?

[KellyPalmer]

A classical definition of prayer is “lifting of the heart and mind to God”. That is our primary task as Mass. We pray in community, but not focused primarily on each other, yet aware we are all focused, together, on the Lord. As we receive His presence in Mass, whether in the Real Presence of Holy Communion or his spiritual presence, we are filled with supernatural charity. This cannot help but spill out to our neighbor. This “spilling out” is reflected in a reserved and gentle “sign of peace”, and in hearty and heartfelt greetings after Mass. There is no conflict between focusing on God during Mass, and being kind and loving to each other after Mass. To the contrary, God’s love, and our love for him, is what allows us to love our neighbor. Some people don’t want to socialize after Mass, perhaps out of shyness, perhaps they are not socially inclined. But true prayer and reflection on God is not the cause of their reticence, it is the cure. Everyone is made a better person through contact with the living God. If you have a more outgoing personality, perhaps you could help draw some of these people out in conversation.

Beautiful response – I agree! I’m probably not doing a good job of expressing myself but if it may help, I’m not trying to pit these ideas against each other. Rather I am suggesting that they are one in the same.

I’m certainly not outgoing at all, the opposite in fact! I don’t suggest that those who are should do anything in particular above those who aren’t, because that’s not the cure. Focusing on God is the cure. But first we must understand what it means to focus on God and who He is. And what that means in relation to the members of His Body.

 

[casmarsh]

Yes, yes, and yes! I was thinking just this morning at mass, that all of the sung responses and prayers seem as if they have become so complicated and taxing – detracting from one’s ability to reflect and pray.

 

[englishredrose]

Prayer does not make one “dreary and sullen” it fills you with joy!

too right it does Amen to that.

But from my own experience I feel too many people miss the real joy of prayer that is obtainable every time we really pray… I think there is a lot of confusion around prayer and has taken me good 25 years to find how to pray as of what works for me and God. There are lots of different ways of Praying and my priest has taught me Brother Lawrence’s style of prayer which be the easiest way for me to explain. Awesome, in the risk of sounding american.

 

[Tigg]

I’m not big on the hand holding and things like that but you make an excellent point. I think some people miss the bigger picture here. Being all about HIM is being all about US. Jesus doesn’t just have children, He is His children. When you fail to welcome your neighbor, you fail to welcome Jesus. When you walk away from your fellow children of God at Mass, you walk away from Jesus. You can’t have HIM without having US. American culture is so individualistic and Catholics haven’t been immune from those effects. So many people want to go to Mass just for Him and no one else as if that were even possible.

Your post is important because it illustrates the reason Catholic parishes can be completely separate in nature.

Father said it best, but God commands worship of Himself and it is our individual duty. We are each to worship Him from the heart during liturgy. God does not judge this obligatory action based upon human emotion or the “feeling” of goodwill we might have toward our friends. We assemble together to publically worship Him and give Him His rightful due. Why have we confused ourselves by thinking that a general bonhomie toward neighbor absolves us of this or that love of our fellow man can ever replace it? Love and adoration of God is the cause and the reason we are even able to love neighbor.

 

[Pablopedro]

Your post is important because it illustrates the reason Catholic parishes can be completely separate in nature.

Father said it best, but God commands worship of Himself and it is our individual duty. We are each to worship Him from the heart during liturgy. God does not judge this obligatory action based upon human emotion or the “feeling” of goodwill we might have toward our friends. We assemble together to publically worship Him and give Him His rightful due. Why have we confused ourselves by thinking that a general bonhomie toward neighbor absolves us of this or that love of our fellow man can ever replace it? Love and adoration of God is the cause and the reason we are even able to love neighbor.

I take issue with this seeming constant insistence that the parishes are “completely separate in nature.” They have a valid Mass, go to Mass to worship God, have a valid Sacrifice of the Mass, and receive the very same Sacrament. Yet because they have different preferences on how Mass goes, because they find loving the Lord and loving their neighbor go perfectly hand in hand, because they want to warmly welcome others into the Parish so that others can share in the Divine Love, their Mass is somehow inferior? Wrong? Different in nature?

I find it extremely bizarre that some of the people who most claim adoration of God think a Mass changes value based on how the people of that Mass are interacting with each other. I have seen people stand up and leave Mass early because they didn’t like something the Priest or Parish was doing toward the end of Mass. This does not translate into a great love of God, rather it is a great love of self and personal preferences.

 

[rfournier103]

I would recommend that you implement this very slowly. Too much change too fast will shock the system. Just my two cents, Father.

 

[Pablopedro]

Prayer does not make one “dreary and sullen” it fills you with joy!

Fantastic! But would you light a candle and place it under a basket? Share that Joy for the world to see and so that they can share theirs with you.

 

[Tigg]

I take issue with this seeming constant insistence that the parishes are “completely separate in nature.” They have a valid Mass, go to Mass to worship God, have a valid Sacrifice of the Mass, and receive the very same Sacrament. Yet because they have different preferences on how Mass goes, because they find loving the Lord and loving their neighbor go perfectly hand in hand, because they want to warmly welcome others into the Parish so that others can share in the Divine Love, their Mass is somehow inferior? Wrong? Different in nature?

I find it extremely bizarre that some of the people who most claim adoration of God think a Mass changes value based on how the people of that Mass are interacting with each other. I have seen people stand up and leave Mass early because they didn’t like something the Priest or Parish was doing toward the end of Mass. This does not translate into a great love of God, rather it is a great love of self and personal preferences.

We don’t seem to be communicating with each other and your post is a red herring because nothing was ever said or implied that all Masses were not valid, or that one is inferior to another, or that love of man should be excluded. The point is simply being made that the emphasis should not be placed upon community within the context of the Mass, even though it is a gathering of community. What we receive at Mass by individually glorifying God is internalized and from that an outward sharing of love is given to neighbor. The difference can be in the focus of community (us). I think one poster put it most succinctly - it’s not about us - it’s about HIM!

 

[Pablopedro]

We don’t seem to be communicating with each other and your post is a red herring because nothing was ever said or implied that all Masses were not valid, or that one is inferior to another, or that love of man should be excluded. The point is simply being made that the emphasis should not be placed upon community within the context of the Mass, even though it is a gathering of community. What we receive at Mass by individually glorifying God is internalized and from that an outward sharing of love is given to neighbor. The difference can be in the focus of community (us). I think one poster put it most succinctly - it’s not about us - it’s about HIM!

I simply do not understand how people lovingly interacting with each other somehow detracts from Mass being about HIM. Is that behavior not caused by and for HIM? What-so-ever you have done to the least of My brethren so you have done to Me? 'Why can’t we glorify God as a community? How are people not individually glorifying God while at the same time being a loving and interactive community? Do strangers generally behave so kindly and lovingly with each other anywhere else? I have never walked down the street and seen perfect strangers hold each others hand and sing praises to God. Because you have different preferences in Mass (you want to be left alone and be quiet) does not mean they are doing it wrong. This also doesn’t mean you are doing it wrong, the other side does not have to be wrong in order for you to be right. God can be glorified and worshiped in many different ways. The contemplative orders have never had to shun or attack active orders because they both realize the other is valid. Does this not translate to the laity and their method of worship as well?

 

[vsedriver]

It would make no difference to me. Any authorized version of the mass is acceptable. In fact anyone promoting one over the other might be bringing scandal upon the church.

it would make no difference to me either. Although I like to hear the prayers of the faithful. It kind of helps focus some of my praying on specific people who need it.

Personally I don’t think the form of the Mass should matter all that much to those who attend. What should matter is a full understanding of what the Mass is and why we are there. And I always appreciate a good homily that is reflective of the readings and also current life issues.

 

[pnewton]

I would attend any Mass. It probably wouldn’t be my regular Mass though. I like singing.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

What do you think?

One cannot argue against such a beautiful Mass [almost monastic]. Are there not parishes offering such a service?

 

[Gelnhausener]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

What do you think?

Fantastic. Tell me which parish and if it is in reach for me, I’ll be there.

 

[Aran_Houlihan]

yes but i would be nice to have a offertory hymn

 

[JackieMom]

Any valid Mass is okay by me. Although you seem to be presenting some lovely choices for your proposed celebration, this version would probably not be the first option for our family. Mainly because I am very uncomfortable with not having the option to receive the Eucharist in the hand, and because it seems so completely divergent from what my children have come to know of the Mass. I don’t know how well attended it would be in my neck of the woods, but there’s a lid for every pot - right? Best wishes!

 

[holyfamily1]

Ave María.

Any valid Mass is okay by me. Although you seem to be presenting some lovely choices for your proposed celebration, this version would probably not be the first option for our family. Mainly because I am very uncomfortable with not having the option to receive the Eucharist in the hand, and because it seems so completely divergent from what my children have come to know of the Mass. I don’t know how well attended it would be in my neck of the woods, but there’s a lid for every pot - right? Best wishes!

"Mainly because I am very uncomfortable with not having the option to receive the Eucharist in the hand"
This quote is a little scary with concern to the Church’s faithful state - if you are very uncomfortable to not have the option to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion on the hand (which is in fact not the ordinary way of reception of Holy Communion)
And, by the way, priests always have the right and duty to deny Holy Communion in the hand if he believes desecration to the Sacred Host may occur.

"completely divergent from what my children have come to know of the Mass"
"Any valid Mass is okay by me"
If this isn’t what you have come “to know” of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (as if there are different categories of Holy Mass) I don’t know how valid or reverent these Masses have been considering what Father presented was what Holy Mother, the Church wants.

Ave María.

 

[Tigg]

"completely divergent from what my children have come to know of the Mass"
"Any valid Mass is okay by me"

If this isn’t what you have come “to know” of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (as if there are different categories of Holy Mass) I don’t know how valid or reverent these Masses have been considering what Father presented was what Holy Mother, the Church wants.

I completely agree with what you have said, (including your comments on CITH) but having had to go to irreverent Masses and seeing the difference in the focus – the vertical vs the horizontal, I can also understand what JackieMom is trying to convey.

I love this article – it explains it so well, and yes, it is the same Sacrifice, the same liturgy, the same Sacrament of the Altar, but for those who participate, the “center,” the focus and the experience of the Mass is different!

(Emphasis added: mine)

……. the progressives are all about the ‘horizontal’ aspect of the church. For them it’s all about people. Remember the 1970s ‘up up with people!’ campaign? That’s them. For them the church is about us. Its about hugs. Its about peace and justice and making the world a better place.

For the conservatives the Church is about the worship of God. It’s about us kneeling in his presence. It’s about adoration and meditation and sanctity and looking for that other country whose builder and maker is God. In other words, it’s all about the vertical.

Now the beautiful fact of the matter is that, at the core of Christianity, is the cross. It stands as a balance between earth and sky. It demands both a vertical and a horizontal. It demands both the love of God and the love of Man. It demands both worship and action. It demands both fine liturgy and fine fellowship.

The horizontals need to be reminded of the need for reverence in worship, the need for contemplation and study and adoration and tradition. However, being more conservative/vertically minded myself, I (and others like me) need to be reminded that service of others, love of others, fellowship, peace and justice, and all that horizontal stuff is also true and necessary and good.

**One of the main problems is that we have tried to cram everything the church does into the Mass. **The vertical and horizontal should be expressed within the whole life of the Church, but the cross shows us that the vertical and horizontal need to be clearly delineated and identified, otherwise confusion sets in.

**In other words, there is a place and time for the vertical and a place and time for the horizontal, and it doesn’t do to mix them up. **The place and time for the vertical is the liturgy. That’s where we meet God. That’s where we face Him together. That’s where the action is up and down. Therefore the liturgy should not be messed up with too much hugging and fellowship songs and focus on me, myself and my friends.

Likewise, the time and place for the horizontal is in all the other activities of the Church: Knights of Columbus, the parish Bible study, the women’s prayer group, the soup kitchen, etc.
~ Fr. Dwight Longenecker ~

patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2008/03/the-horizontal-and-the-vertical.html

 

[MarkInOregon]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.

Could adopt to though I prefer and entrance song --just wish they would try to tie it to the theme of the mass or to the antphon more often.

1. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course

Wish all parishes would adopt this.

1. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving

Would like communion rails - be cognizant of the elderly who can’t kneel, unless you want to pick them up.

1. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular

Could adapt - though I find latin diminishes my assent. I have a hard time with the foreign languages and only a few phrases translate in my head. My eyes are closed for most of mass and I would prefer not to have to look at a missal to know what I am saying. I like to pray in my native tongue.

1. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor

This would be fine. Not sure I’d like post communion reflection sung or canted – I prefer silence.

1. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns

I don’t find silence necessary at the offertory and find it interesting that you list communion after reading #5 above. I’d like silence before the “I confess” to reflect on my sins. I’d like a moment of silence everytime the priest says “let us pray” and especially when we have to change posture–the priest should give us a chance to stand before launching into the prayer.

1. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

Sounds great.

What do you think?

I wish you all the best. And depending on your parish I’d say stay strong and expect some complaining.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Sacredheart1208]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

What do you think?

That would be the best! I would love to go to a mass like that, come to my town! We would love something like that! Keep it up Father, amazing!

 

[YoungTradCath]

And for the thousandth time I would like to reiterate that it makes no sense musically or liturgically to eliminate the Offertory chant while still using all the other chants: Introit, Psalm/Gradual, Sequence if there is one, Alleluia/Tract, and Communion. They are a package deal. Yes, I would say it is better to include just one of them (Introit for example) if that is all a parish can muster, but if a parish and its priest are prepared to sing the Propers, then sing the Propers and don’t leave one of the pieces out; that is inimical to the whole point of using them in the first place, if in fact you are going to use them.

Using all the Propers except the Offertory for “silence” would be as silly as singing a polyphonic mass by Palestrina but leaving out the Credo “because we need some silence.” Do you see now? The Offertory is not envisioned by the books or by liturgical history as being a quiet time. A slow, meditative time for the people, yes, but not quiet. The Offertory chant is very ancient and its use is completely uninterrupted in at least Western liturgy. I cannot state enough how much of a mistake it would be to have all these glorious liturgical bits and then leave out the Offertory chant.

Other than that, and the hymn thing which I have already touched on, again, I am fully in agreement with you, Father.