Would You Attend This Mass?

[FrStevenJones]

Fr., I don’t quite understand why you would go whole-hog with the Ordinary parts, have chanted dialogues, and have the genuine Graduale Introit and Communio, but then leave out the Offertory. That seems to be an odd thing to do. I know you mentioned silence at this part of the Mass, but the Offertorys are very meditative pieces. They are unobtrusive and really add to the Mass. You say they are “optional.” Well, yes, just about everything in the OF re: music is “optional,” but to leave out the Offertory of all pieces doesn’t seem to align with the general spirit of what you are trying to do. To leave out the Offertory and not replace it with at least a motet or something seems very weird. Clearly, the preference is for a chant there.

I’d be interested in including an offertory chant, if I could get a vernacular version of the antiphon from Graduale Romanum. I’ve gotten enough feedback here that a totally silent offertory might not be a good idea. But I also need to keep this fairly simple. In South Dakota, especially in a rural parish, complex sung parts are not going to fly!

 

[jwinch2]

I’d be interested in including an offertory chant, if I could get a vernacular version of the antiphon from Graduale Romanum. I’ve gotten enough feedback here that a totally silent offertory might not be a good idea. But I also need to keep this fairly simple. In South Dakota, especially in a rural parish, complex sung parts are not going to fly!

This resource may be helpful for you Father. It has simple chant in English that is free for you to use in your parish.

icelweb.org/musicfolder/openmusic.php

God Bless,

 

[YoungTradCath]

I’d be interested in including an offertory chant, if I could get a vernacular version of the antiphon from Graduale Romanum. I’ve gotten enough feedback here that a totally silent offertory might not be a good idea. But I also need to keep this fairly simple. In South Dakota, especially in a rural parish, complex sung parts are not going to fly!

So, I don’t understand what you mean. For the Introit, Offertory and Communion do you mean to have them all in a vernacular chant translation or the I&C in Latin from the Graduale, but the O in vernacular?

Re the Propers I think consistency is better, but if it must be done, a mix is also fine.

Also, I recommend you retain some hymns for the procession and recession. You can have a hymn for the procession, and once you reach the foot of the altar to enter the sanctuary, you can have the Introit chanted while you are reverencing and censing it.

 

[Joe_5859]

At our communion rails we have several people that can’t kneel. Usually they stand close, and place one hand on the rail to steady their bones. It’s not a problem at all, and we rejoice they are able to come to the table.

That’s good to hear. I figured some place somewhere had to have dealt with that issue before.

 

[jwinch2]

That’s good to hear. I figured some place somewhere had to have dealt with that issue before.

I’ve seen parishes where they just have people with difficulty coming up for Holy Communion sit up front so that the priest or deacon can bring it to them directly. It seems to work rather well.

 

[Joe_5859]

I would attend a Mass like this by myself, on the rare occasion I go to Mass alone. I enjoy the sacred silence.

I would not bring my child to a Mass like this. My son is 9 years old and has autism, cognitive impairments, and vision impairments. Usually he enjoys going to Mass (some days are really bad and we don’t make it out of the house at all). He works very hard to control his behavior at Mass, but sometimes he fails. He doesn’t do well with stillness and silence. He talks to himself at times, anticipating what is coming next. Some days he dances during the Gloria and the Lamb of God. It’s not a matter of discipline; it’s a fact of his brain being wired differently. He experiences things differently and he expresses things differently. He will only receive communion in the hand, because he does not like having other people’s hands near his face. But he has an amazing faith and a deep relationship with The Lord.

It can be hard to find a parish community that is accepting of children with autism. I know many families who have left the Catholic Church because they were made to feel unwelcome. So I would appreciate the type of Mass you describe as one option. But I would hope the parish would also have the more usual type of Mass, which seems to be more accommodating for individuals with special needs.

That’s a fair point. I love the moments of silence personally. But I can imagine that would increase the likelihood of interruptions from my son with autism. Even though I have my difference of opinion with our music ministry’s choice of songs and instrumentation, I’m always rather grateful when they are playing loudly when he decides now is a great time to scream for no reason.

 

[Joe_5859]

I’ve seen parishes where they just have people with difficulty coming up for Holy Communion sit up front so that the priest or deacon can bring it to them directly. It seems to work rather well.

That’s a good solution, too.

 

[GwenL]

I yearn for a Mass such as this, and I appreciate your enthusiasm. But, Fr Jones, a word of caution from experience. I’m at a parish known as the most “traditional” in a fairly “Californicated” diocese. The rest of the diocese is a spiritual wasteland, in other words. Our rector arrived three years ago with about the same ideas as you have. He started implementing these ideas, little by little (some say too quickly, I don’t think so) and faced open rebellion.

He catechized to the max before introducing Latin and chant. He put articles in the bulletin and made up explanatory handouts. He spent his homily time before Mass explaining the Latin, the reason for Latin, and the spirituality of Latin and chant, and teaching the congregation to sing the songs. We have a fine schola. He started with simple Mass settings and the Gloria, Sanctus, Angus Dei in Latin by the congregation. He started with the Credo and Our Father chanted, but in English. Open rebellion by a large portion of the parish, including the nastiest letters to the bishop that you can imagine. People made rude remarks to the schola as they came and went. People hate the Our Father and Credo chanted, even in English. He started with English propers, and added some Latin for solemnities. All of this was met with hostility.

He started a TLM once a month, on Friday evenings. A good number of parishioners who wouldn’t go near the church no matter what on Friday evening are campaigning against it.

I once hoped that he would celebrate ad orientem at the OF. I don’t think it will happen. This has been terribly disappointing, and the spiritual warfare has taken an incredible toll on a very holy priest.

Fr Jones, you must know your parish. Pick your battles.

 

[SecretGarden]

I wouldn’t go especially if number was forced. I have trouble with my knees therefore kneeling could be an issue, plus I prefer to receive my communion in hand vs my tongue. Plus the latin is pretty but I’m not sure if everyone will enjoy it every week. Not all of us are that conventional therefore, if you decide to follow through with your idea, add it as part of a weekday and see how that goes.

Before you make it permanent in your parish, it might be a wise idea after every mass to ask people to fill out a short survey and then present the findings at a congregational meeting. Let the people speak. Right now, times are tough inside the church and the last thing you want to do is alienate your congregation with a format they may not be comfortable with.

 

[Elizium23]

Father, these are all excellent ideas, and personally I would love to attend such a liturgy, but let me share a point of view that I have not seen yet in this thread. It is the point of view of the common parishioners in many a parish.

I think that there are plenty of pastors who wish to effect reforms such as these and introduce more reverence and more beauty in this manner, but what is really preventing them is the rank-and-file parishioner, a parishioner who is not well-represented here in the CA Forums. The parishioners who are the most vocal and/or offer the most material support to the community. These parishioners do not tend to like change. These parishioners are of the generation of “The Spirit of Vatican II” and they love their folk songs and their Communion standing in the hand and their priest facing versus populum. These parishioners do not read Church documents and they are not aware of the existence of such things as the GIRM and Redemptionis Sacramentum. These parishioners are delightful people, don’t get me wrong. They are likely to be very involved and volunteer, even in liturgical ministries. They feel that they are the ones who made the parish what it is today, and they may well be right. But they aren’t willing to submit to pastoral authority without question. They who dislike these changes will bring it up with you, sometimes very confrontationally, and then they will go over your head, at the same time gathering their forces among the other laity in the parish. They will make life very difficult for you until they either withdraw support from the parish and even leave it in search of greener pastures, or until you relent, or until your bishop agrees with them and reassigns you unexpectedly.

You have options, of course. You can create a long-term plan over the course of your tenure, to implement these reforms piecemeal and gently, with much catechesis and dialogue, and not have it seem such an abrupt rupture with parish custom. You can convince your bishop to assign you to a parish where these changes would be well-received by the cabal of the laity, but if you are a relatively new priest you may not have so much sway or choice in assignments. You can work with your bishop and brother priests to find out just how much to introduce and just when you can get away with imposing new changes, and how to stand firm when there is opposition and complaint and hatred being hurled your way.

Whatever you decide, remember that it is all for the greater glory of God in Heaven. “Save the liturgy, save the world!” You will be in my prayers, Father.

 

[Joe_5859]

I yearn for a Mass such as this, and I appreciate your enthusiasm. But, Fr Jones, a word of caution from experience. I’m at a parish known as the most “traditional” in a fairly “Californicated” diocese. The rest of the diocese is a spiritual wasteland, in other words. Our rector arrived three years ago with about the same ideas as you have. He started implementing these ideas, little by little (some say too quickly, I don’t think so) and faced open rebellion.

He catechized to the max before introducing Latin and chant. He put articles in the bulletin and made up explanatory handouts. He spent his homily time before Mass explaining the Latin, the reason for Latin, and the spirituality of Latin and chant, and teaching the congregation to sing the songs. We have a fine schola. He started with simple Mass settings and the Gloria, Sanctus, Angus Dei in Latin by the congregation. He started with the Credo and Our Father chanted, but in English. Open rebellion by a large portion of the parish, including the nastiest letters to the bishop that you can imagine. People made rude remarks to the schola as they came and went. People hate the Our Father and Credo chanted, even in English. He started with English propers, and added some Latin for solemnities. All of this was met with hostility.

He started a TLM once a month, on Friday evenings. A good number of parishioners who wouldn’t go near the church no matter what on Friday evening are campaigning against it.

I once hoped that he would celebrate ad orientem at the OF. I don’t think it will happen. This has been terribly disappointing, and the spiritual warfare has taken an incredible toll on a very holy priest.

Fr Jones, you must know your parish. Pick your battles.

That’s sad. It sounds like your pastor did everything possible to bring people on board. But some people just resist change. Which in this case is somewhat ironic if you think about it.

That is true, though. Priests need to know their parish and pick their battles.

 

[Gidge]

Father, these are all excellent ideas, and personally I would love to attend such a liturgy, but let me share a point of view that I have not seen yet in this thread. It is the point of view of the common parishioners in many a parish.

I think that there are plenty of pastors who wish to effect reforms such as these and introduce more reverence and more beauty in this manner, but what is really preventing them is the rank-and-file parishioner, a parishioner who is not well-represented here in the CA Forums. The parishioners who are the most vocal and/or offer the most material support to the community. These parishioners do not tend to like change. These parishioners are of the generation of “The Spirit of Vatican II” and they love their folk songs and their Communion standing in the hand and their priest facing versus populum. These parishioners do not read Church documents and they are not aware of the existence of such things as the GIRM and Redemptionis Sacramentum. These parishioners are delightful people, don’t get me wrong. They are likely to be very involved and volunteer, even in liturgical ministries. They feel that they are the ones who made the parish what it is today, and they may well be right. But they aren’t willing to submit to pastoral authority without question. They who dislike these changes will bring it up with you, sometimes very confrontationally, and then they will go over your head, at the same time gathering their forces among the other laity in the parish. They will make life very difficult for you until they either withdraw support from the parish and even leave it in search of greener pastures, or until you relent, or until your bishop agrees with them and reassigns you unexpectedly.

You have options, of course. You can create a long-term plan over the course of your tenure, to implement these reforms piecemeal and gently, with much catechesis and dialogue, and not have it seem such an abrupt rupture with parish custom. You can convince your bishop to assign you to a parish where these changes would be well-received by the cabal of the laity, but if you are a relatively new priest you may not have so much sway or choice in assignments. You can work with your bishop and brother priests to find out just how much to introduce and just when you can get away with imposing new changes, and how to stand firm when there is opposition and complaint and hatred being hurled your way.

Whatever you decide, remember that it is all for the greater glory of God in Heaven. “Save the liturgy, save the world!” You will be in my prayers, Father.

Martyrs were sent to the lions for the faith; I’m sure Father is quite capable of handling any interactions his local ordinary.

Don’t priests get reassigned at various intervals anyway
(i.e. not the worst “punishment” IMO) ?

If the parish in question is currently run by liberal-leaning laypeople, I agree that Father may be in for a fight;
for all we know, Father’s congregation may appreciate reverent liturgy.

If people never try, they’ll never know “what would have been” – nothing in this life is risk-free.

 

[Tigg]

Martyrs were sent to the lions for the faith; I’m sure Father is quite capable of handling any interactions his local ordinary.

If the parish in question is currently run by liberal-leaning laypeople, I agree that Father may be in for a fight;
for all we know, Father’s congregation may appreciate reverent liturgy.

If people never try, they’ll never know “what would have been” – nothing in this life is risk-free.

With an emphasis on the sacred, how can God’s grace fail to influence even among those who would resist?

Don’t priests get reassigned at various intervals anyway
(i.e. not the worst “punishment” IMO) ?

God will have His way and work all things to the good. Your comment reminds me of a story that was in the news a few months ago in El Paso. There were sidewalk protests against the bishop there, and a huge controversy surrounding him and his support of Alyinskian (political) community organizing. A local priest who was still celebrating the TLM was being persecuted in some circles for his defense of Church teaching on SS marriage and eventually was removed and reassigned to a little town some 200 miles away in a forgotten and desolate place. (There’s more to the reports, of course, but supposedly the intent was to minimize his affect on the people.) As the story goes, the townspeople in this God-forsaken place had been praying for 10 years that God would bring them a priest to celebrate the Latin Mass. Upon his arrival, Father Michael Rodriquez transformed the little church and added an altar rail. God will have HIS way!

Take courage, Father Steven, and be of good cheer knowing that there are many many Catholics praying for you and for those like you. We pray constantly for the purification of the Church and for the Triumph of Mary’s Immaculate Heart!

 

[opus101]

At our communion rails we have several people that can’t kneel. Usually they stand close, and place one hand on the rail to steady their bones. It’s not a problem at all, and we rejoice they are able to come to the table.

This is good. At the parish where I sometimes attend the EF, there is no altar rail, and people are expected to kneel on the step to the altar area…there is no rail to assist in getting down and back up.

I’m glad that some people at your parish are able to stand to receive.

 

[opus101]

People hate the Our Father and Credo chanted , even in English.

Wow! It’s amazing to hear how different things are in various places. Even in my former “swinging” parish, the Our Father was always chanted (in English). In fact, I don’t remember any period in my life when it wasn’t, it just seems so normal and natural.

Although your priest has alienated some, hopefully many will be attracted to his changes and join your parish.

Over what time span did your priest introduce these things? It sounds like he did a lot of things to prepare the parish, but in what time span? I now go to a parish that has very reverent and simple Masses, all sung/chanted in English. To get that far, I think it took the priest at least two years. The EF is offered there as well, but is sparsely attended.

I would think that to introduce Latin in as many parts as you indicated might take 4-5 years!

Also, is there an English translation next to the Latin?

It has been 40+ years since the average parish has used Latin. Things won’t change overnight.

 

[mojo321]

I didn’t read all of these pages on this topic, but I will give my two cents. But first an example:

One day I went to church, and few people held hands during the Our Father. The following week, a few more. Then lots of people started doing it. Then, it evolved to holding the held hands up in the air even HIGHER during the doxology. At this point in time, if you DON’T participate in such a thing, you are the outsider. “Why wouldn’t you want this communion with the congregation during the Our Father?!?!” is the common response I get when I say I don’t agree with it. To which I always say “You have just proven my point.”

Required elements of the Mass are great. “Optional” elements of the Mass are divisive. I don’t know if there is a thread on the “holding hands” thing. But the OP of this thread just is a more sophisticated version of the same, in my opinion. Dangerous not by intent, but by the results. Some will love it, others will not, and then the “judging each other” begins.

 

[jwinch2]

Hi Father,

Here are some other great resources that might make your life easier going forward with your thoughts on the Mass:
amazon.com/Parish-Book-Psalms-Arlene-Oost-Zinner/dp/0984865276
amazon.com/Simple-English-Propers-Ordinary-Sundays/dp/1607437260

Here is an article talking about them:
newliturgicalmovement.org/2013/06/music-of-ordinary-form-it-only-took-50.html

God bless,

 

[Catholic_Wife]

People on CAF definitely DO NOT represent the average parishioner. Elizium23 said basically what I was going to add. We have people who have been members of our parish since it began 50 years ago, and they would not take the changes you propose lightly. As a matter of fact, many would either go over your head to the bishop, or just leave and find a parish where they are more comfortable with the style of worship.

Myself, I would most likely find another parish if you implemented all of these changes without consulting the parishioners. Hymns have their place, especially when they are chosen to reflect the readings of the day and not just chosen out of the quarterly OCP flyer. I like times of silence, but you can add those without getting rid of all of the hymns. Ad Orientem would be fine with me, and might actually help me concentrate during the Liturgy of the Eucharist when I am tired and have trouble. I’m fine with the use of a communion rail and COTT, but most in my parish would not be - especially since there is the option to receive standing and in the hand. As for the Ordinaries being chanted in Latin, I didn’t take Latin in school, I don’t know Latin, and I don’t want to learn Latin. I can get the previous three things at the local parish that offers the EF, and choose not to attend that parish for a reason. As for the homily, as long as it’s interesting and engaging, it can be as long as you want it to be. If it’s dull and boring, you might hear heavy breathing from my direction if I had a hard shift at work the night before.

Personally, I believe you make small changes to the liturgy (pick your battles and fight for the ones that are most important to you) and focus more on helping your flock live as faithful Christians, show the love of Christ and be of service to others outside of the Mass.

 

[Fairwinds]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

What do you think?

No. I would not. I do not like Latin, do not read it or understand the language or its nuances. At best, I’d be doing a substitution of English words for the Latin text.

I’m not being argumentative, and forgive me in advance if this question seem so, but if Latin is so important, why not give the readings and homily in Latin as well?

 

[tafan]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

What do you think?

Well, overall sounds pretty good, here are my particular thoughts (for a Sunday, not weekday mass):

1. to absolute. A well done, traditional hymn for entrance procession and final procession seems more appropriate.
2. Very good
3. Very good, encourage people to receive on the tongue, but I don’t think it is allowed to make it absolute requirement at a parish
4. Very good
5. I don’t really like this. I like the intent a lot, I just don’t think it will work. I think best is a very, beautiful, rather quiet hymn/chant sung during communion, with maybe a short period of silence after communion. The problem is that for most folks, absolute silence during mass does not lead to prayer, but a “background” hymn or chant will help people focus on private reflection. But I understand you point, big musical productions during communion, are very distracting to what everyone’s purpose should be at that time. Its just that absolute silence in a setting of the Church being filled with people does the exact opposite of what you want, for most people. You cannot recreate a private, silent reflection in a chapel or church, when few (or no) other people are present or in one’s immediate vicinity at the time of communion. But with the simple, beautiful background music, you can come much closer.
6. for communion and entrance and exit processions, see above. For offertory, it is probably ok.
7. Awesome homily: good. 10-15 minutes: too long. Use some of that time instead using the first Eucharistic prayer. A previous pastor who was the best homilist I ever heard kept his homilies around 5 minutes. Have a really good point and make it well. That should be all it takes, and anything longer, regardless of quality of delivery you will loose the attention of most of the folks. The same pastor, did weekly 2-hour long adult education courses that he delivered himself. And over time, they became very popular, attracting quite a few people.

Overall, I love what you are trying to do, I just am nit picking at some of the details, one of my many faults. God Bless.