Would you comment on this pls

[Hello_All]

yesterday,i came across rev billy graham’s column on our newspaper,which a reader was concerned about losing her salvation, from sinning.Rev .Graham allayed her fears and responded that Jesus completely paid the penalty of our sins,past ,present and future,when he died on the Cross,quoting Colossians 2:13-14 and that by God’s grace we will all go to heaven.Does he mean that Hitler,Abortionists,future terrorists sins, have been forgiven already? He encouraged though everyone, to emulate Christ.But,I am still baffled about his response.Any comment will be appreciated.

 

[JonNC]

yesterday,i came across rev billy graham’s column on our newspaper,which a reader was concerned about losing her salvation, from sinning.Rev .Graham allayed her fears and responded that Jesus completely paid the penalty of our sins,past ,present and future,when he died on the Cross,quoting Colossians 2:13-14 and that by God’s grace we will all go to heaven.Does he mean that Hitler,Abortionists,future terrorists sins, have been forgiven already? He encouraged though everyone, to emulate Christ.But,I am still baffled about his response.Any comment will be appreciated.

Do you have a link? Just for context’s sake.

Jon

 

[tabycat]

Need some sort of context. Since non of us, on this side of death, knows who is and who is not in heaven or hell. Only God knows before hand where someone is going to be in enternate.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Does he mean that Hitler,Abortionists,future terrorists sins, have been forgiven already?

Graham is an Evangelical Baptist. He believes salvation is attained by “accepting” Jesus as savoir (whatever that means), and once that is done, it cannot be undone (ie, once-saved, always saved). This is called an “assurance of salvation.”

The logical flaw is someone who “accepts” Jesus but later commits horrendously sinful acts. Most adherents will claim that such a person never really accepted Jesus in the first place, because someone who accepts Jesus won’t do those things. Of course, that’s not much of an “assurance.”

Graham would maintain that any evil person can be saved if they “accept” Jesus, presumably after they have done their evil. The Catholic Church teaches the same with regard to Baptism (which is how an adult “accepts” Jesus in the Catholic Church).

I have not seen the column in question, but if Graham seemed to suggest that everyone is saved then he would have been assuming that the reader was familiar with his teaching and would know that he refers to “everyone” who has “accepted” Jesus.

He might have said that everyone is “redeemed” (something that both Catholics and Baptists believe). Redemption is not the same as salvation (though they are often confused).

 

[Daizies]

This might be it - it seems to fit the question at any rate
kansascity.com/2012/07/20/3714904/billy-graham-gods-will-is-for.html

 

[tabycat]

Everyone is ‘redeemed’ but not everyone is ‘saved’.

 

[jenwha]

I argue this with a Protestant family member all the time, ie, once saved, always saved.

This is the view that Evangelicals have which conflicts with Catholic teaching, inasmuch as that we don’t believe salvation is a one moment in time immediate happening.

Most evangelicals I know loudly profess that they know they are going to heaven, which kind of makes me cringe because it seems to me they are presuming to know the judgment of God. This to me is a dangerous idea to have.

 

[Hello_All]

this is derived from the newspaper ,san antonio express news dated, 07/21/2012.life section, page E4.

QUESTION:does the bible say that if you become a christian then you shoudnt sin anymore,and if you do you’ll lose your salvation?i heard someone say this once,and it really worries me,because i know,im not perfect.
REV.GRAHAM:no,this is not what the bible says.one of the bible greatest truths is that we are saved only by Gods grace,and never how good we are.our only hope is in Jesus Christ,because by his death on the cross he completely paid the penalty for all of our sins-past,present and future.the bible says .“he forgave us all our sins…he took it away,nailing on the cross” (collosians 2:13-14).

that should give you great comfort,because what you say is true.no matter who we are,we’re never completely free from sin.nor,will never be,unti God takes us home to heaven.

the apostle paul was the greatest christian ,who ever lived —and yet even he wasnt perfect or free from sin,and he knew he was saved only by god’s grace.he declared “not that i …have already been made perfect,but i press on to take hold of that for which christ jesus took hold of me”( Philippinans 3:12).

does this mean we shouldnt be concerened when we sin or we shouldnt try — with God’s help --to be better?no,of course not.God’S WILL IS FOR US TO BECOME MORE AND MORE LIKE cHRIST.make that your goal and then learn to walk with christ everyday as you pray,read his word and have fellowship wiith other believers.the bible says"let the word of christ dwell in you richly… with gratitude in your hearts to God"(collosians 3:16).

 

[Hello_All]

This might be it - it seems to fit the question at any rate
kansascity.com/2012/07/20/3714904/billy-graham-gods-will-is-for.html

thanks daisy,that’s the one!

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

yesterday,i came across rev billy graham’s column on our newspaper,which a reader was concerned about losing her salvation, from sinning.Rev .Graham allayed her fears and responded that Jesus completely paid the penalty of our sins,past ,present and future,when he died on the Cross,quoting Colossians 2:13-14 and that by God’s grace we will all go to heaven.Does he mean that Hitler,Abortionists,future terrorists sins, have been forgiven already? He encouraged though everyone, to emulate Christ.But,I am still baffled about his response.Any comment will be appreciated.

The problem we have with this belief is if we agree with it then it means we believe that Christian’s sin in the state of grace which is impossible since grace and sin are incompatible with each other. Heck if they were compatible with each other their would have been no point to a redeemer and no reason for why adams sin contributed to the fall of man kind.

Love by its very nature cannot be forced; it must be offered and it must wait to be accepted. The belief that God forces his mercy on us (or anything for that matter) would void the very purpose of having a relationship with him. Yes the debt for all sin has been paid for by Christ; however you have to chose to drink from that well…it is not given to you automatically simply because you profess a belief in the well. The parable of the prodigal son address this reality when we see one of the sons leave the fathers house with all of his riches (grace) and losses them all by a riotous living (sin). Notice in the story the father doesn’t go out and give his son more money. He waits for the son to return to him; however, as a long as the son choses to stay away from the father, he will be thought of as lost and dead. Finally though the son returns to the father and* confesses* (to his Fr. ) that He has sinned against heaven and earth and he is no longer worthy to be called a son of the father. Yet the father seeing his sorrow forgives (absolution) him and clothes him in new garments (grace) and has a feast rejoicing that his son has finally returned and that now his son is no longer dead but alive again. Note that the son started his journey as a professed son of his father and that he had all the riches that came with being a son of the father; however he lost theses riches by sinning.

“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived” ( 1 corinthians 6:9)

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. " (Matthew 7:21)

“But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves” (James 1:22)

“No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other.” (Matthew 6:24)

“If you love me, you will obey what I command.” (John 14:15)

 

[Jehannette]

yesterday,i came across rev billy graham’s column on our newspaper,which a reader was concerned about losing her salvation, from sinning.Rev .Graham allayed her fears and responded that Jesus completely paid the penalty of our sins,past ,present and future,when he died on the Cross,quoting Colossians 2:13-14 and that by God’s grace we will all go to heaven.Does he mean that Hitler,Abortionists,future terrorists sins, have been forgiven already? He encouraged though everyone, to emulate Christ.But,I am still baffled about his response.Any comment will be appreciated.

Read Life in the Son and Elect in the Son by the Protestant scholar Robert Shank. The Greek tense of the verb “believe” is not aorist but present, continous. One must believe and continue to believe… Also, read “Not by Faith Alone” by Robert Sungenis.

 

[jschutzm]

continuing on with what “Credo Deum” said.

Christ also went into some detail about the Vine and the Vineyard onwer. – In this analogy, Christ makes it clear that those who sin will be CUT OFF from the vine (body of Christ)
He is speaking NOT of non-believers, because they were never part of the vine. He is specifically talking about fallen away believers… those who believed and then chose to reject him and are thus cut-off.

It is the only explanation that makes sense. So the idea of ‘once saved always saved’ (OSAS) is pure nonesense.

I believe it is in the book of John that says we must…what? “endure to the end” – not until we merely believe, not until we make some one time acknowledgement of faith. – but to the END. Salvation is not a past event… as in “I was saved on July 2nd 1962” It is an ongoing process NOT because God is unsure, but because WE have freewill and with that, can CHOOSE to turn away from him.

TRUE, the bible says that no one can snatch us from God’s hand. - Not even the devil. HOWEVER, that says nothing about us willingly walking away from God or leaving him of our own freewill.

Many non-Catholics believe in a one-time decision to believe. Catholics on the other hand choose every moment of everyday. We continuingly choose to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. We either choose to grow slower or to grow apart from him. We either use our will to be a believer, or live as a non-believer. We either continue to grow in grace or reject that and pursue more worldly endeavors.
To a Catholic we are Saved, we are BEING saved, and we HOPE to be saved. We were saved by Christ’s sacrifice, we are being saved by God’s mercy and grace, and we Hope to be saved when we appear before God for our final judgement.

 

[Della]

continuing on with what “Credo Deum” said.

Christ also went into some detail about the Vine and the Vineyard onwer. – In this analogy, Christ makes it clear that those who sin will be CUT OFF from the vine (body of Christ)
He is speaking NOT of non-believers, because they were never part of the vine. He is specifically talking about fallen away believers… those who believed and then chose to reject him and are thus cut-off.

It is the only explanation that makes sense. So the idea of ‘once saved always saved’ (OSAS) is pure nonesense.

I believe it is in the book of John that says we must…what? “endure to the end” – not until we merely believe, not until we make some one time acknowledgement of faith. – but to the END. Salvation is not a past event… as in “I was saved on July 2nd 1962” It is an ongoing process NOT because God is unsure, but because WE have freewill and with that, can CHOOSE to turn away from him.

TRUE, the bible says that no one can snatch us from God’s hand. - Not even the devil. HOWEVER, that says nothing about us willingly walking away from God or leaving him of our own freewill.

Many non-Catholics believe in a one-time decision to believe. Catholics on the other hand choose every moment of everyday. We continuingly choose to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. We either choose to grow slower or to grow apart from him. We either use our will to be a believer, or live as a non-believer. We either continue to grow in grace or reject that and pursue more worldly endeavors.
To a Catholic we are Saved, we are BEING saved, and we HOPE to be saved. We were saved by Christ’s sacrifice, we are being saved by God’s mercy and grace, and we Hope to be saved when we appear before God for our final judgement.

Many Evangelicals do not understand what we mean by the part I bolded of your great explanation. When we say we hope for salvation they think we mean we cannot be assured that God will keep his promise to save us. Of course, that’s not what we mean at all. We mean that we have hope that we won’t lose God’s grace through committing mortal sin, thus cutting ourselves off from God’s love. They have very little theological understanding of the underpinning of Catholic belief and practice. The think all sin is the same, even though the Scriptures themselves tell us otherwise. They cannot believe that they will fall from grace, therefore they attach those feelings to God and put it on him to preserve them instead of on cooperating with God’s grace, a concept they neither know nor understand when they are told of it because it is completely outside their way of thinking/believing. Getting them to see outside their limited theology is the hard part because they have invested their salvation in it.

 

[jschutzm]

Many Evangelicals do not understand what we mean by the part I bolded of your great explanation. When we say we hope for salvation they think we mean we cannot be assured that God will keep his promise to save us. Of course, that’s not what we mean at all. We mean that we have hope that we won’t lose God’s grace through committing mortal sin, thus cutting ourselves off from God’s love. They have very little theological understanding of the underpinning of Catholic belief and practice. The think all sin is the same, even though the Scriptures themselves tell us otherwise. They cannot believe that they will fall from grace, therefore they attach those feelings to God and put it on him to preserve them instead of on cooperating with God’s grace, a concept they neither know nor understand when they are told of it because it is completely outside their way of thinking/believing. Getting them to see outside their limited theology is the hard part because they have invested their salvation in it.

AMEN!.. I agree 100%
The older I get… the more imprecise I realize the spoken and written language is. How often it is that we misunderstand each other.

I can say:

“I hope to be saved when I stand before God at the final judgement”

and they can HEAR “Gee… I don’t know if God will save me! I’m completely confused about how one is saved”

I can say:

“I am being saved by God’s grace”

and they can HEAR: “I am being saved by my works and by my actions, apart from God and Christ’s sacrifice.”

So I agree, that they often misunderstand what we say because of their limited theological scope/understanding and/or because they have a certain amount of energy and momentum vested in a certain set of preconceived notions about Catholics.

And you are right that this is hard to break out of… even for the most eloquent of speakers.

I’ve had many a misunderstanding between myself and my wife, who is baptist on these types of topics. We both swear we are being as clear as possible, and yet we end up on complete polar opposite sides of the discussion.