Would you consider this heretical?

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fermat

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‘One Holy, Universal and Apostolic Church’

In the past, when I have been discussing the Catholic faith with non-Catholics (Protestants, non-Christians, ect) we usually get to a point in the discussion where I am asked what I believe as a Catholic. I like to recite the Nicene Creed since it covers all the basics. When I get to the ‘One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church’ I will sometimes substitute the word ‘Universal’ for ‘Catholic’. I did this because as soon as I say ‘Catholic’, the wheels come off the bus and the conversation shifts more often than not to’Why should I obey the pope!’.

I researched this New Advent (Nicene Creed, Catholic) and the general context of the word is ‘universal’, as opposed to referencing the Catholic Church proper.

What is your opinion on changing the word but keeping the meaning? Part of me feels that if Church wrote catholic, use catholic. Another part of me feels that if I can get to the core issues by changing the word and keeping the meaning, go for it.

Discuss.
 
fermat said:
‘One Holy, Universal and Apostolic Church’

In the past, when I have been discussing the Catholic faith with non-Catholics (Protestants, non-Christians, ect) we usually get to a point in the discussion where I am asked what I believe as a Catholic. I like to recite the Nicene Creed since it covers all the basics. When I get to the ‘One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church’ I will sometimes substitute the word ‘Universal’ for ‘Catholic’. I did this because as soon as I say ‘Catholic’, the wheels come off the bus and the conversation shifts more often than not to’Why should I obey the pope!’.

I researched this New Advent (Nicene Creed, Catholic) and the general context of the word is ‘universal’, as opposed to referencing the Catholic Church proper.

What is your opinion on changing the word but keeping the meaning? Part of me feels that if Church wrote catholic, use catholic. Another part of me feels that if I can get to the core issues by changing the word and keeping the meaning, go for it.

Discuss.
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Keep the word …and then explain it. but part of explaining it will mean of course …at the right time…mentioning the successor of St Peter
 
I believe you will find the word spelled “catholic” with a lower case “c” in the creed; and it is defined as universal by the Church. I also believe other denominations use the same word with the small “c” in their printed creeds. So the problem is on how some people hear and interpret the word; if they were truly versed in their faith, they would know it is “catholic” meaning universal.
 
I don’t think it’s heretical do say universal instead of catholic, but the text is what it is if you are trying to recite the Nicene Creed. You could consider coming up with your own paragraph paraphrasing the Creed instead, and for the last part you can say, “I believe there is one Church. I think it should exemplify holiness. I think it should be universal and open to all mankind. And I believe it should have roots in the Apostles who were the “foundation” as Scripture says.”
 
What is the “universal” Church, and how does it relate to the Catholic Church, and how does it relate to the pope?
 
They are synonymous. The Catholic church IS the Universal Church. The Universal church IS the Catholic church. By saying catholic you ARE saying universal. The question is what did the Bishops have in mind when they said it? “Universal” (catholic) was simply the way they referred to the One church. There was no 30,000 denominations of churches back then (“you shall NOT schism”) so there was no need to make a differentiation between big “C” and little “c.”. If one were to walk up to one of the Bishops in 325AD and ask if they mean bi or little “c” they would probably look at you funny. There was ONE church, and they used the Greek word for universal to refer to that ONE church.

So say Catholic, because it means what it means: Catholic. And if you get pulled off track into a conversation about big and little “c” then simply ask them if they have any evidence of the bishops at Nicea making that differentiation. Bottom line, it doesn’t matter if back then is was a small “C” because at that point there was no need to differentiate.

Not until someone calls the sky pink must you point out that it is Blue.
 
fermat said:
‘One Holy, Universal and Apostolic Church’

In the past, when I have been discussing the Catholic faith with non-Catholics (Protestants, non-Christians, ect) we usually get to a point in the discussion where I am asked what I believe as a Catholic. I like to recite the Nicene Creed since it covers all the basics. When I get to the ‘One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church’ I will sometimes substitute the word ‘Universal’ for ‘Catholic’. I did this because as soon as I say ‘Catholic’, the wheels come off the bus and the conversation shifts more often than not to’Why should I obey the pope!’.

I researched this New Advent (Nicene Creed, Catholic) and the general context of the word is ‘universal’, as opposed to referencing the Catholic Church proper.

What is your opinion on changing the word but keeping the meaning? Part of me feels that if Church wrote catholic, use catholic. Another part of me feels that if I can get to the core issues by changing the word and keeping the meaning, go for it.

Discuss.
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If you change the words than you’re not praying in complete visible union with all other Christians who pray the Creed.
 
The three Creeds we have are all valid and are all infallable teachings of the Church and form the first catechism for Catholics.

I would stick with the exact words approved by the Church.

The problem we have nowadays is that all the old school Protestant faiths all imagine that they are “the” Catholic Church or else everyone who is baptised is “catholic” in a large invisible church.

Christianity is being hijacked by heretics who not only stole the Catholic Bible and re-published it a tithe lite but even stole our Catholic Creed and prayers.

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
The three Creeds we have are all valid and are all infallable teachings of the Church and form the first catechism for Catholics.

I would stick with the exact words approved by the Church.

The problem we have nowadays is that all the old school Protestant faiths all imagine that they are “the” Catholic Church or else everyone who is baptised is “catholic” in a large invisible church.

Christianity is being hijacked by heretics who not only stole the Catholic Bible and re-published it a tithe lite but even stole our Catholic Creed and prayers.

James
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No one stole the Creed. Come on. The Creed was promulgated before most Christian divisions. Protestants pray the same Creed as Catholics. No one stole anything.
 
diggerdomer said:
No one stole the Creed. Come on. The Creed was promulgated before most Christian divisions. Protestants pray the same Creed as Catholics. No one stole anything.
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Agreed. Lets calm down with running around calling our seperated brothers and sisters “heretics” and “theives.”

Good debate in search of truth is good and necessary, but what you’re doing is making people bitter and making people not want to even consider the Catholic faith. God doesn’t smile upon someone who hardens the hearts of others when he could have softened them. we must becareful not to let our interest in apologetics be motivated by a desire to win an argument or put someone down.

To whatever protestants are on this thread, please accept my apologies for any inflamatory words you may hear from some on these forums. I hope in your experiences on here it is the exception rather than the rule.
 
fermat said:
I
What is your opinion on changing the word but keeping the meaning? Part of me feels that if Church wrote catholic, use catholic. Another part of me feels that if I can get to the core issues by changing the word and keeping the meaning, go for it.

Discuss.
Click to expand...
Use Catholic. It was the Bishops of the Catholic Church that wrote the creed. When they said " I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church" they were talking about the Catholic Church that they belonged to.
Christ established a Church. He did not establish denominations.
 
Third_Day said:
Use Catholic. It was the Bishops of the Catholic Church that wrote the creed. When they said " I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church" they were talking about the Catholic Church that they belonged to.
Christ established a Church. He did not establish denominations.
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But at the time there was no other Christian Church except the Catholic Church.
 
MarcoPolo said:
I don’t think it’s heretical do say universal instead of catholic, but the text is what it is if you are trying to recite the Nicene Creed. You could consider coming up with your own paragraph paraphrasing the Creed instead, and for the last part you can say, “I believe there is one Church. I think it should exemplify holiness. I think it should be universal and open to all mankind. And I believe it should have roots in the Apostles who were the “foundation” as Scripture says.”
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I like this line thought. The whole reason that I used the creed was that I knew it by heart and could recite it extemporaneously, as if I was thinking of it on the spot. I could better apply that approach with something more customized.
 
diggerdomer said:
But at the time there was no other Christian Church except the Catholic Church.
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There still is only one Christian Church - The Catholic Church.
The non Catholic faiths are considered “ecclesial communities”.
The Orthodox being substantially the same faith as Catholics are considered a proper Church but in schism to the Catholic Church - a missing lung so to speak. But we will eventually get them back into full communion.

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
There still is only one Christian Church - The Catholic Church.
The non Catholic faiths are considered “ecclesial communities”.
The Orthodox being substantially the same faith as Catholics are considered a proper Church but in schism to the Catholic Church - a missing lung so to speak. But we will eventually get them back into full communion.

James
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Your statement is a bit confusing. You say there’s only one Christian Church, but then you say the Orthodox are a proper Church. In addition to the Catholic Church? Or separate but still a Church?

Regardless, everyone you note above are Christians, and as such profess the same Creed, essentially. So still, no one “stole” a Creed (or a New Testament, which all Christians also share in common). Chill. Relax. Pray for Christian unity (especially at this time of year).
 
diggerdomer said:
Your statement is a bit confusing. You say there’s only one Christian Church, but then you say the Orthodox are a proper Church. In addition to the Catholic Church? Or separate but still a Church?

Regardless, everyone you note above are Christians, and as such profess the same Creed, essentially. So still, no one “stole” a Creed (or a New Testament, which all Christians also share in common). Chill. Relax. Pray for Christian unity (especially at this time of year).
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The wording in the catechism is very subtle and I confess I can’t put together a proper taxonomy for how the Orthodox work in. All I I know is that Rome does acknowledge them as Church’s but I think more in the sense of the early NT churches - just off the reservation so to speak. All I know for certain is that Protestants are not considered proper churches and are just clusters of baptised people who congregate together but are informal Catholics. I never said they were not Christian. You seem to have a sensitivity in this area and keep probing me for my sentiments. Why?

As for the Creed it has been essentially hijacked with a new semantic when it is attested in an ecclesial community outside of formal membership in the Catholic Church. Non Catholics expressing it outside of a communion with the Catholic Church render the attestation of faith disingenuous. It is devoid of a factual concept of unity such that when attested it renders it almost an irrelevant expression. One can believe in all the other important concepts (forgivness of sins, resurrection of the deat etc.) but without being in communion and in unity wth Catholics the “We” is not the same “We” and becomes “Separated Brother”. Our seperated brothers believe they are substantially in a seperate free standing but protesting relationship but still somehow still fully part of something that they are not in accord with. Thus the semantic has drifted to become an “invisible” catholic Church that are imagined to be all the same faith. This is not consistent with the Catholic semantic of the Creed which starts of with the assumption that "WE (who “believe”) and speak the prayer and faith attestation are in substantial formal communion (and in good graces) in a UNITY of faith and in conformity to apostolic authority and each other. Obedience to apostolic authority matters in the reckoning of “We”. Non-Catholics are factually NOT in conformity to the apostolic church’s authority nor therefor in any orthodox semblance of unity. The attestation is sincerely spoken but is not an actuality in fact and so is overall objectively insincere. That is why I call it hijacked since its semantic is changed.

It’s running very late here and I need to get to bed. Hope that makes sense.

James
 
This Creedal subtopic discussion has casued me to go back and re-examine the Creed and the historical forms accepted by the Catholic Church.

I learned something here. Originally it was called the “Symbol” and was a kind of common password so that Christians would recognize each other (useful in times of persecution) as well as a profession of faith in community worship and used for initiation into the Church before baptism. It was a held tradition/legend (small t) throughout the Middle Ages that the Apostles, on the day of Pentecost, while still under the direct inspiration of the Holy Ghost, composed our present “Apostles Creed” between them, each of the Apostles contributing one of the twelve articles. Very interesting.

I have listed the original Roman Symbol, the apostles Creed and then the Nicene Creed. I note that the emphasis shifts from a personal attestation “I” to a community attestation “we” in the Nicene form as the Church comes out of the catecombs when widespread persecution ends.
Catholic Creeds:
Old Roman Creed/Symbol
(1) I believe in God the Father Almighty,
(2) And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;
(3) Who was born of (de) the Holy Ghost and of (ex) the Virgin Mary;
(4) Crucified under Pontius Pilate and buried;
(5) The third day He rose again from the dead,
(6) He ascended into Heaven,
(7) Sitteth at the right hand of the Father,
(8) Whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
(9) And in the Holy Ghost,
(10) The Holy Church,
(11) The forgiveness of sins;
(12) The resurrection of the body.

APOSTLES CREED
  1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
  2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
  3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
  4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
  5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
  6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
  7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
  8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
  9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
  10. the forgiveness of sins,
  11. the resurrection of the body,
  12. and life everlasting.
Nicene Creed
**We believe **(I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. **We confess **(I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And **we look for **(I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."
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The Nicene Creed was written a millennium before the Protestants exist but there is definately a concept of “we” that works into the Creed in 381 AD as Christianity comes out of its persecution to shift the emphasis from personal to open community worship. Christianity is fully out of the catacombs and the Creed is no longer a secret pass phrase but rather a bold community profession of faith.

So from the Nicene Creed’s emphasis on a context of “Church” community I think it is fair to say that those who seperated themselves from the original Church, that Catholic Church, are in no way in communion with the universal “We” of the Catholic Church.

James
 
fermat said:
‘One Holy, Universal and Apostolic Church’

In the past, when I have been discussing the Catholic faith with non-Catholics (Protestants, non-Christians, ect) we usually get to a point in the discussion where I am asked what I believe as a Catholic. I like to recite the Nicene Creed since it covers all the basics. When I get to the ‘One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church’ I will sometimes substitute the word ‘Universal’ for ‘Catholic’. I did this because as soon as I say ‘Catholic’, the wheels come off the bus and the conversation shifts more often than not to’Why should I obey the pope!’.

I researched this New Advent (Nicene Creed, Catholic) and the general context of the word is ‘universal’, as opposed to referencing the Catholic Church proper.

What is your opinion on changing the word but keeping the meaning? Part of me feels that if Church wrote catholic, use catholic. Another part of me feels that if I can get to the core issues by changing the word and keeping the meaning, go for it.

Discuss.
Click to expand...
Look at the problem with the filioque, and you want to change the Creed? That will cause more damage.
 
fermat said:
‘One Holy, Universal and Apostolic Church’

In the past, when I have been discussing the Catholic faith with non-Catholics (Protestants, non-Christians, ect) we usually get to a point in the discussion where I am asked what I believe as a Catholic. I like to recite the Nicene Creed since it covers all the basics. When I get to the ‘One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church’ I will sometimes substitute the word ‘Universal’ for ‘Catholic’. I did this because as soon as I say ‘Catholic’, the wheels come off the bus and the conversation shifts more often than not to’Why should I obey the pope!’.

I researched this New Advent (Nicene Creed, Catholic) and the general context of the word is ‘universal’, as opposed to referencing the Catholic Church proper.

What is your opinion on changing the word but keeping the meaning? Part of me feels that if Church wrote catholic, use catholic. Another part of me feels that if I can get to the core issues by changing the word and keeping the meaning, go for it.

Discuss.
Click to expand...
How about a practical approach?

Explain that One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic are considered the four Marks (characteristics) that identify the Catholic Church as the one uniquely founded by Jesus Christ, Himself. They are visible, essential, and unmistakable. (CCC 811-870)

Our Church is seen as Catholic because the Greek roots of the term “Catholic” mean universal in the sense of wholeness or totality. Primarily, the Church is Catholic because Jesus Christ, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, is wholly and totally present in her.

The Church is Catholic because God wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2: 1-6) The Church is Catholic in that it safeguards all truth in all ages. Pope John Paul II wrote that the Revelation of Christ will continue to be “the true lodestar” in history for all humanity.

Our Church is seen as One because of its unity of doctrine, unity of worship through the seven Sacraments, and unity of government under one head. Its founder is the One God Who is Truth. Thus, it follows that God being One, there is one true divine plan of creation, redemption, and final beatitude for all. The one truth of salvation is given in the mystery of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Second Person of the Triune God.

Our Church is seen as Holy because it witnesses with fidelity to the Gospel of Jesus, Whose Holy Presence continues within the Church. (Matthew 28: 16-20) Christ calls all to a holy life. Nonetheless, members of His Church acknowledge their sinfulness and through grace follow the path of conversion, penance, and renewal. United with Christ, their holiness on earth is real, though imperfect. Saints are public examples of the holiness within the Church.

Our Church is seen as Apostolic because it is a single Church founded by Jesus Christ and existing today through the succession of the Popes beginning with St. Peter. The Catholic Church relies on the faith of the apostolic age. The whole Church is apostolic in that all her members, including us, share in the mission of the Apostles to establish the Kingdom of God
for all.

Blessings,
granny

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