Would you give up all that you have to never know "need"?

[Joysong]

sawman:

A man so different that you would sell all give to the apostles and live in common with them?

While I cannot speak for ncjohn and realize that you were addressing him, I did not get the impression from his original post that he was advocating this. His closing words were:

… and more importantly a true focus on the treasures stored up in heaven that moths cannot eat.

Nor did I understand that he was promoting a disdain for wealth as some may have believed. What I think all of us are called to is the virtuous practice of temperance and prudence as stewards of all God’s blessings to us.

Temperance calls us to justly modify our craving and strivng to acquire more and more, which consequently blinds us to the real sufferings and needs of the poor in our midst. Striving is the word used by St. Teresa who counselled that anyone in this position can be assured he will not enter into the embrace of union with God.

Prudence helps us to balance how much to conserve for our basic needs as heads of families called to sustain those in our care, while remembering charity in bestowing a just portion on the needy. It is good to reflect on the teaching of St. James 2:15.

And if a brother or a sister be naked and in want of daily food, and one of you says to them, “God in peace, be warmed and filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for the body, what does it profit? So faith too, unless it has works is dead in itself.

 

[CarrieH]

Even if we gave up all we had and pooled our resources, this doesn’t mean that we might never know “need.” One of our priests is quite fond of the following message, and reminds us of this frequently:

Money can buy a house, but not a home.
Money can buy a bed, but not sleep.
Money can buy a clock, but not time.
Money can buy a book, but not knowledge.
Money can buy food, but not an appetite.
Money can buy position, but not respect.
Money can buy blood, but not life.
Money can buy insurance, but not safety.

 

[ncjohn]

Dear ncJohn, Cheeto1,
ncJohn, can you say that what Jesus showed you has made you a man so different than before you knew Him?A man so different that you would sell all give to the apostles and live in common with them?Would I,can I say the same thing?No I cannot.But what I can say is that by trials and suffering and dying to ones self,I have started to see what a great thing it is! I can just begin to take my eyes off of myself long enough to see something else.I see Jesus in heaven calling.I see the saints who have gone on before us calling.I can hear the saints join me in my prayers.I can fall prostrate before the Lamb who was slain,and now lives again.That is something that could change me! Is changing me!

I would say, as you have, that it is something that could change me and is changing me. As I have been reminded on occasion, when I start to beat myself up as I am prone to do, that it is a journey and that I am where God means for me to be at this point on it to accomplish what He wants accomplished.

Perhaps there is as much example for my children and grandchildren in seeing me struggle with this as there would if I was already “there”. Just as we learned how suffering can be handled by seeing Jesus himself suffer rather than seeing him already in his glory in a way with which we could not possibly identify, perhaps others can also take heart and be willing to take small steps in seeing someone else willing to do so with them, joining them on the journey.

So, I still cry and moan to God about my troubles but they are not as bad as many of the bretheren.But,I can also give thanks for these same things because they are the cause of my drawing nearer to Him.I think maybe this is just a small taste of what happened to the early disciples.Something like this must be conversion.I can almost see from that vantage point that nothing else matters as long as I can be nearer to Christ in the midst of the bretheren.What do you think?

This is absolutely the ongoing conversion we are all called to sawman. As a Franciscan, the need for daily and ongoing conversion is deeply rooted in me; the recognition that each day I have to recommit myself to moving forward rather than letting myself slide back, and that each day God will give me the grace to do so if I trust and follow.

I still have to admit though that I seldom find the ability to give thanks for my trials while they are going on, though I have gotten much better at being able to see after the fact that they were in fact for my own good. I have also found that I have learned much, much more from the horrible mistakes I have made, and their consequences, than I have ever learned from my “successes”, though the successes are certainly necessary to give us encouragement to continue.

In th end, whatever it is God really is calling me to, while I have to admit that I’m not close to perfect I can confidently say that I’m further along than I used to be, and that at least in my better moments I’m trying to listen.

Peace to you on your journey!

 

[ncjohn]

While I cannot speak for ncjohn and realize that you were addressing him, I did not get the impression from his original post that he was advocating this. His closing words were:

… and more importantly a true focus on the treasures stored up in heaven that moths cannot eat.

Nor did I understand that he was promoting a disdain for wealth as some may have believed. What I think all of us are called to is the virtuous practice of temperance and prudence as stewards of all God’s blessings to us.

In all truth, Carole, I’m not sure myself what I’m advocating, or if I am advocating some particular path. I’m surely not recommending any universal call for anyone else as I believe God’s plan for each of us is unique.

Part of my original reflection was on whether a literal call to do what was described in that reading was still possible, and whether at least some of us might actually be called to do so. Whether my family and I would be better off and more focused on the true journey under such circumstances.

You are right though that it was not a disdain for wealth, in and of itself, though I do fully recognize the temptations that come with wealth. God will use whatever we have and whatever we are willing to give Him to accomplish His will. Jesus did indeed exalt the widow who gave from her own need, and commented on how difficult it is for those with wealth to enter the kingdom. But he also commended Zaccheus for his willingness to give from his wealth to make restitution without calling on him to give away all.

Are we all called to hand over all our worldly goods as St. Francis did? Even his own brothers mostly disagreed with that idea and modified his rule of life even before his last breath. Some certainly are called to it, as monastics or cloistered religious. But I tend to agree that not all are.

In the end, as you note, prudence and stewardship are the key. If we bury our “talents” in the ground and do not use them to serve the Master, we have failed. But that does not mean that we should not use them to prosper, as without prosperity at some level there can be no lifting up of the poor. As some wise man once said, “without profits there can be no welfare.”

 

[sawman]

While I cannot speak for ncjohn and realize that you were addressing him, I did not get the impression from his original post that he was advocating this. His closing words were:

… and more importantly a true focus on the treasures stored up in heaven that moths cannot eat.

Nor did I understand that he was promoting a disdain for wealth as some may have believed. What I think all of us are called to is the virtuous practice of temperance and prudence as stewards of all God’s blessings to use

Dear Joysong,I In no way thought ncJohn was advocating disdain for wealth. I would not have been able to provide for my family all these years without wealthy people wanting my services.I am sorry if youthought that from my poorly worded post. The passage ncJohn used in Acts has always impressed me.I’ve always thought,what motivated those early christians to do such a thing?I cannot think of a modern day equivilent. Except maybe Mother Theresa’s outfit.What did those people see and here? For that matter, what in the world kind of change came over Peter? His preaching certainly had the power of the Holy Spirit in it.Thousands came to believe in such a short time.I for one have never witnessed that kind of power or preaching.I have never heard of it in modern times either.
Mybelief is that those who were witnesses to the God-Man,who saw Him, heard Him, felt Him, both before and after the resurection,were so affected, so changed,so out of the ordinary,that their preaching and example was irrefutable by human standards. Was this a charism of the early church? I think perhaps it was,to the extent that it was displayed.There are many examples of mass conversions from the preaching of many saints down thru the ages.We moderns though, I think only have access to this phenomenon through history books.So what was it that urged so many to sell all?What do you think?Am I way off base here? Or worse, off thread. If I’ve inadvertantly breeched thread etiquette please forgive me.

 

[Joysong]

Sawman:

Dear Joysong, I In no way thought ncJohn was advocating disdain for wealth. I would not have been able to provide for my family all these years without wealthy people wanting my services. I am sorry if you thought that from my poorly worded post.

Not at all, sawman. I did not direct that wording to you, but used the words, as “some” MAY have believed. I thought that may have been the case with Reen’s post, and possibly any who might tend to think that way who were reading this thread.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Joysong]

So what was it that urged so many to sell all? What do you think? Am I way off base here?

I would hope that they decided through an incredible love for Christ and their neighbor, otherwise we read in scripture that these actions may be ‘clanging symbals’ if not motivated by love.

The incredible awe over hearing about Jesus would have had a more profound influence on these early christians, I think, than we who live in much later centuries and did not hear the first witnesses speak of the resurrection. The apostles and disciples were utterly filled with the Holy Spirit and gave first-hand testimony, touched by God’s anointing and joy that is not as apt to hold sway today. Maybe if we were there at that time, we might have done likewise???

Hopefully, it was under a special inspiration of the Spirit for that particular time and people.

 

[ncjohn]

I found this wonderful little story this morning that well describes what I seek.

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A man runs out to meet a monk who is passing by his village. “Give me the stone,” he cries, “the precious stone!”

The monk says, “What stone are you talking about?”

The man says, “Last night God appeared to me in a dream and said, ‘A monk will be passing by the village at noon tomorrow, and if he gives you a rock that he is carrying with him, you will be the richest man in the country.’ So give me the stone!”

The monk reached into his sack and took out a diamond; the biggst diamond in the world, the size of a human head! And he said, “Is this the stone you want? I found it in the forest. Take it!” The man seized the stone and went running home. But he couldn’t sleep that night. Very early the next morning he went to where the monk was sleeping under a tree, woke him up, and said “Here’s your diamond back. I want the kind of wealth that enables you to throw wealth away.”