Would you join a Crusade?

[TemplarKnight]

a just Crusade would have to be declared by the Pope for the good of the Church and the world.

Isn’t that what we are talking about? A Crusade, by definition, is declared by the Pope for the good of the Church…If that’s not what we’re talking about, then “Crusade” should be taken out of the equation and then it’s an entirely different conversation. The OP said Crusade; which unequivocally implies a call from His Holiness and the Church. period

without proper munitions and advanced weaponry, as well as experienced military strategarists to coordinate the effort of a multinational force, such a Crusade would be futile. The Church doesn’t have any of these prerequisites necessary for war, doesn’t have the expertise needed to actually organize the effort, and most critically has no way to get the advanced weapons needed to actually make a success of it.

WHAT??? Granted that Vatican City has no military but I guarantee you they could acquire absolutely everything they need. Strategists, munitions, and they already have all the cash to buy the latest, greatest weaponry available today. Plus, how many experienced servicemembers, current and former, would pick up and fight a CRUSADE? I gather quite a bit. So if you think the Holy See would be a rollover, you’re taking an ignorant position.

 

[TemplarKnight]

Those of us here who have truly experienced war will be the last ones to advocate it’s use if no other way is possible.

So you are saying you would be the last ones to support a war if no other way is possible???

SO in other words if no other way is possible, you STILL would not support a war? That’s the way it is written.

Or did you mean to say you would be the first ones to support a war if no other way was possible?

I would like some clarification.

 

[goofyjim]

Exactly.

Right now Peregrino is pacifist who is so devoid of love that he would have sat by and watched as my family, nation and race was brutally murdered and enslaved despite having the power to stop such an evil.

I hope he recants such a position and expresses some kind of warmth.

I hope he looks at the Catechism and accepts Church teaching on war not his own. The Church teaches that there is a Just war. Peregrino is pontificating that this is not so. Good thing his position is anti-Catholic.

Count me in as a pacifist as well. But to accuse me of not loving is just wrong. I love by following the Ten Commandments. Remember number five-thou shalt not kill.

 

[TemplarKnight]

I love by following the Ten Commandments. Remember number five-thou shalt not kill.

Actually the commandment says "thou shall not murder" There are many examples in Catholicism where killing is justified.

 

[Freshman88]

Count me in as a pacifist as well. But to accuse me of not loving is just wrong. I love by following the Ten Commandments. Remember number five-thou shalt not kill.

Also thou shalt no kill makes no sense given the history of Israel. How many times did the Israelites break this commandment when they defended the nation of God?

It is clear that the logic of fighting for a loved one makes no sense to a pacifist.
so…
Do you love Church teaching? The Church teaches that war can be just.

 

[Peregrino]

Also thou shalt no kill makes no sense given the history of Israel. How many times did the Israelites break this commandment when they defended the nation of God?

It is clear that the logic of fighting for a loved one makes no sense to a pacifist.
so…
Do you love Church teaching? The Church teaches that war can be just.

To the contrary, a pacifist completely understands the logic of self-defense and other-defense and would willingly sacrifice themselves for others out of love (following the example of Jesus and the early martyrs). How many people did Jesus kill with his self-sacrifice? Perhaps it was precisely the reasons you stated above regarding the Israelite’s violation of the 5th commandment encouraged Jesus to speak so plainly against violence and killing. “let those with ears hear”…

Jesus said that some teachings are hard.

“You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say to you, Offer the wicked man no resistance. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go two miles with him.” Mt. 5.38-41

How do you reconcile these types of passages with your concept of crusade “for the faith”?

 

[goofyjim]

Also thou shalt no kill makes no sense given the history of Israel. How many times did the Israelites break this commandment when they defended the nation of God?

It is clear that the logic of fighting for a loved one makes no sense to a pacifist.
so…
Do you love Church teaching? The Church teaches that war can be just.

Church teachin leaves it to the individual to decide for themselves the idea of a just war. Noon can force us to pick up a weapoon and kill. Besides going off to a crusade is not fighting for a loved one. When they come here then I will defend my loved ones. But I’m not going to seek out war and pretend to have peace talks on the side. And that is a wrong statement that a pacifist does not love.

 

[Freshman88]

How do you reconcile these types of passages with your concept of crusade “for the faith”?

Easy - the CHURCH.

It is our only standard for interpreting scripture. The Church has said that there is such a thing as just war, and the Church has said that one can kill in self-defense.

There really is no need for discussion, unless you disagree with the Church - in which case, you need our prayers.

 

[goofyjim]

Easy - the CHURCH.

It is our only standard for interpreting scripture. The Church has said that there is such a thing as just war, and the Church has said that one can kill in self-defense.

There really is no need for discussion, unless you disagree with the Church - in which case, you need our prayers.

Since when has the Church had the ability to override Christ’s directive? That is what bothers me.

 

[Freshman88]

Since when has the Church had the ability to override Christ’s directive? That is what bothers me.

Easy- the Church doesn’t override it. You simply misunderstand Christ and why he choose the pacifist positon. He like modern Priests holds a vocation that did not call for war.
Now because his vocation called to be a pacifist and a martyr does not mean we share the same vocation. Just as Christ was celibate - we are not all called to celibacy.

Quite clearly, either you are right, or the Church is wrong. I hope you realize the seriousness of this.

 

[goofyjim]

Easy - the CHURCH.

It is our only standard for interpreting scripture. The Church has said that there is such a thing as just war, and the Church has said that one can kill in self-defense.

There really is no need for discussion, unless you disagree with the Church - in which case, you need our prayers.

Going to war and self defense are two different things. I will defend myself and my loved ones but not by going to war in a foreign country.

 

[goofyjim]

Easy- the Church doesn’t override it. You simply misunderstand Christ and why he choose the pacifist positon. He like modern Priests holds a vocation that did call for war.

Quite clearly, either you are right, or the Church is wrong. I hope you realize the seriousness of this.

I am not saying the Church is necessarily wrong but you seem to imply that if they declare a war is just we all have to pick arms and go. We are still free to decide for ourselves whether or not we can go. One can love and be a pacifist as well. There is NO sin in that.

 

[TemplarKnight]

Since when has the Church had the ability to override Christ’s directive? That is what bothers me.

What bothers me is your total disregard for the teaching of the Catholic Church. If you are a Catholic, then you acknowledge the directive of the Church and her interpretation of the scripture rather than taking a verse out of context.

The context of Jesus in that verse was to show the Israelites were not to take vengeance against either their fellow, or other tribesman. It wasn’t a blanket statement against violence period. It was for vendettas.

 

[TemplarKnight]

I am not saying the Church is necessarily wrong but you seem to imply that if they declare a war is just we all have to pick arms and go. We are still free to decide for ourselves whether or not we can go. One can love and be a pacifist as well. There is NO sin in that.

Don’t take this the wrong way but can you grasp the concept between a “war” and a “Crusade”?

 

[goofyjim]

What bothers me is your total disregard for the teaching of the Catholic Church. If you are a Catholic, then you acknowledge the directive of the Church and her interpretation of the scripture rather than taking a verse out of context.

The context of Jesus in that verse was to show the Israelites were not to take vengeance against either their fellow, or other tribesman. It wasn’t a blanket statement against violence period. It was for vendettas.

I am not going to war. That is my option. This is a personal decision and cannot be directed by any outside authority. There is no Church teaching that would mandate killing anyone other than self defense and war does not fall under that category.

 

[Freshman88]

Going to war and self defense are two different things. I will defend myself and my loved ones but not by going to war in a foreign country.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/just_war.htm

You may not go to war, but war can be a valid option.

But tell me, what if war comes to you and your family? Would you join those who fight for you and your family? Or simply sit by idly as they die on your behalf?

 

[goofyjim]

Don’t take this the wrong way but can you grasp the concept between a “war” and a “Crusade”?

Yes. And I am even more opposed to a Crusade because it does not constitute self defense.

 

[Freshman88]

I am not going to war. That is my option. This is a personal decision and cannot be directed by any outside authority. There is no Church teaching that would mandate killing anyone other than self defense and war does not fall under that category.

I responded to an unedited post, so allow me to respond to this post.

You are again incorrect.

All Catholics are called to obey valid authority and the just laws given by a valid authority. IF there was a Just war, and you were drafted, you would be breaking a valid command given by a valid authority.

To avoid the draft to a just war would be a sin.

 

[goofyjim]

Again there is no teaching that can force one to pick up a weapon and kill except as a means of defending loved ones and oneself. And all other options must be exhausted first. Now I have had enough of all the personal attacks against peregrino and myself and I am washing my hands and feet clean of these forums.

 

[TemplarKnight]

Yes. And I am even more opposed to a Crusade because it does not constitute self defense.

The best defense is a good offense.

Should I wait until the robber is in my house and in my child’s room or should I stop him at the window?