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Sword_Brethren
Guest
Muslim countries? North Africa and the Holy Land were Christian and the muslims took them over.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
And you know everything.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
St. Louis IX knew of war and he went and fought in two Holy Crusades, any way. Because he was a man of God.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
The muslims sacked Rome is 846 A.D. and invaded Spain and the Catholic people of Spain fought a 700 year war to rid Spain of the muslim invader. In 732 the Franks stopped the muslim invaders near Pioters , France. In 1009, Hakem, the Fatimite Caliph of Egypt ordered the destruction of the Holy Sepulchre, in Jeusalem. The muslims made war with the Byzantine Empire and Emperor Alexius asked for Catholic help in fighting off the muslim invaders.I “thought” that Christians lived peacefully in the Muslum countries until the Crusades???.
Also, Christians who lived under muslim rule were treated like second class citizens.
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Servus_Pio_XII
Guest
How do you reconcile with the fact that Catholic theology for the first three-hundred years was vehemently opposed to military service in any fashion?
How do you reconcile a bellicose, crusading Church with the Church of the Fathers that was nearly pacifist in its opinions?
T
txsoldier94
Guest
Heh…could it be that for the 1st 300 years of Christianity, military service meant service under the command of the “god”-emperors of Rome? And lest we forget…there are several saints from that period that were Roman soldiers (e.g. St. Martin)
Mik
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Servus_Pio_XII
Guest
You know, its also interesting…one post hereabove stated that a Crusade was a form of martyrdom.
A great saint of the East, a patriarch, was asked by the Byzantine Emperor to declare those soldiers who perished against the Moslems to be martyrs.
The saint refused, contending that they could not be called martyrs, who bore arms.
Even in a Christian Empire, military service was not viewed as “holy”.
A great saint of the East, a patriarch, was asked by the Byzantine Emperor to declare those soldiers who perished against the Moslems to be martyrs.
The saint refused, contending that they could not be called martyrs, who bore arms.
Even in a Christian Empire, military service was not viewed as “holy”.
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mschrank
Guest
You do realize you are saying Pope Urban II was wrong, and you are right?
All hail Servus Pio, great Antipope!
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OldRedleg
Guest
An interesting discussion/debate.
As an Army retiree after 23 years of service I want to toss a salute to all you other veterans who have posted. Thanks for your service!
Anyone who has served and seen the horrors of war is not about to advocate the haphazard initiation of war or placing young men and women in harms way. Blessed are the peacemakers. I pray every day that the leaders of the world find ways to resolve conflicts without resorting to the use of arms.
However, there is a plaque that has hung on the wall of every place that I have worked for 25 years. It is a quote by the English Philosopher John Stuart Mills.
These days I can identify very much with those who advocate pacifism. My last five years in the Army I really struggled with moral conflicts over the use of arms and possibly being a participant in causing the death or injury of innocent noncombatants. But in the final analysis I realize that there are times when there is no other option than to take up arms and do what is right if the cause is just.
As an Army retiree after 23 years of service I want to toss a salute to all you other veterans who have posted. Thanks for your service!
Anyone who has served and seen the horrors of war is not about to advocate the haphazard initiation of war or placing young men and women in harms way. Blessed are the peacemakers. I pray every day that the leaders of the world find ways to resolve conflicts without resorting to the use of arms.
However, there is a plaque that has hung on the wall of every place that I have worked for 25 years. It is a quote by the English Philosopher John Stuart Mills.
If a situation existed where the Pope called upon Catholics to take up arms for the Faith I would have to believe it was a just cause.
These days I can identify very much with those who advocate pacifism. My last five years in the Army I really struggled with moral conflicts over the use of arms and possibly being a participant in causing the death or injury of innocent noncombatants. But in the final analysis I realize that there are times when there is no other option than to take up arms and do what is right if the cause is just.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
I don’t recall our Lord condeming the Centurion. Matthew 8:5-10 "And when he had entered into Capharnaum, there came to him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, and is grieviously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith to him: I will come and heal him. 8 And the centurion making answer, said: Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof: but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed. 9 For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers; and I say to this, Go, and he goeth, and to another, Come, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel."
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Servus_Pio_XII
Guest
Pope = infallible
Pope =/= impeccable
I don’t recall this passage having anything to do with military service, beyond the fact that our Lord came to minister to sinners, not the righteous.
Furthermore, he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
You need to do some history research.Oky doky. Would you clarify some history for me as I seem a bit muddled about who was attacking the Pilgrims on their way to Jerusalem. I “thought” that Christians lived peacefully in the Muslum countries until the Crusades??? and that the Pilgrims were being attacked by robbers, bandits etc. Thus sprang up the Knights Templar. I don’t believe it was an all out attack of Muslims preventing Christians from visiting the Holy places in the Holy Land. Just trying to get to the bottom of the cause of unrest in the Middle East between Islam and Catholocity. And yes, I am a Pacifist until I am threatened by individuals or groups, but it has to be a real threat, not one imagined.
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Caesar
Guest
Every now and then there is a cause where it is right and just to take up the sword and defend the Church. We are not a religion of force and arms, like Islam, where violence is lauded; but niether are we a religion that ignores the problems of this world and shuns action. We must defend the Church with force if necessary, but not necessarily by force.
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elt1956
Guest
Okay, I am reeeely confused. Anyone of the Islamic faith says Islam is a peaceful religion. I would think they would understand their own religion. Have you read any of the postings by Sister Amy in the non-Catholic forum?
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TemplarKnight
Guest
Talk is cheap. The religion of “peace” is a storied religion of war, terrorism, oppression, double standards, etc. Just because a member “says” something doesn’t mean it’s true. Of course they are going to say they’re a religion of peace; as long as you are a muslim and live by their rules.Okay, I am reeeely confused. Anyone of the Islamic faith says Islam is a peaceful religion. I would think they would understand their own religion. Have you read any of the postings by Sister Amy in the non-Catholic forum?
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idrum677
Guest
Isn’t this the kind of stuff that started the Crusades in the first place?
:knight1: :knight1: :knight1: :knight2: :knight2:
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Caesar
Guest
To be honest, I try not to venture into the Non-Catholic Forum too much. I have no desire to succumb to my family history of heart problems this early in my life.Okay, I am reeeely confused. Anyone of the Islamic faith says Islam is a peaceful religion. I would think they would understand their own religion. Have you read any of the postings by Sister Amy in the non-Catholic forum?
The “peaceful Islam” presented to westerners today is actually a water-down brand of the religion. This would be the liberal version that has emerged in the 20th century. In reality those who we call “fanatics” and label as fringe-groups are actually closer to the authentic, historical Islam.
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SanJudas
Guest
God bless all here.
There is a good reason why the Church does not get into the business of war these days. That reason is the massive destruction of innocent lives and property that inevitably occur in a modern military conflict.
And I quote:
“During the Mass of Beatification [for the Bl. Emperor Karl] on 3 October 2004, Pope John Paul II stated:
The decisive task of Christians consists in seeking, recognizing and following God’s will in all things. The Christian statesman, Charles of Austria , confronted this challenge every day. To his eyes, war appeared as “something appalling”. Amid the tumult of the First World War, he strove to promote the peace initiative of my Predecessor, Benedict XV.”
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_Austria
Most Muslims are not raving, bomb-throwing jihadists. They are farmers, cab drivers, cooks, shopkeepers, doctors, economists, or schoolteachers. I had a Muslim Palestinian roommate for one year at college. In 1986 he predicted the 1993 Oslo peace agreement between Begin and Arafat. He use to rise every morning at 5:30 a.m., wash his hair in the sink, and pray. He now works for an engineering firm in Chicago. I have a Pakistani co-worker, our resident computer geek. He spends his lunch hour every day at the local mosque, praying. He is a vocal supporter of the US and NATO efforts in Afghanistan.
My point is this: Before we imagine another military adventure in the Middle East, why don’t we dedicate that same energy and courage to a renewal of our own Faith here at home? How many Catholics rise at dawn to pray? How many spend lunch hour at the church instead of eating, even during Lent? People like my ex-roommate and my coworker would be the most likely victims of any violent crusade, not the terrorists, who simply run away and hide in the hills.
However, I am not opposed to an armed guard, composed of “military-minded Catholics,” to defend our brethren in Iraq, Palestine, or Lebanon, as was suggested on the “Warrior Monks?” thread. Any ideas on how to make that become reality?
There is a good reason why the Church does not get into the business of war these days. That reason is the massive destruction of innocent lives and property that inevitably occur in a modern military conflict.
And I quote:
“During the Mass of Beatification [for the Bl. Emperor Karl] on 3 October 2004, Pope John Paul II stated:
The decisive task of Christians consists in seeking, recognizing and following God’s will in all things. The Christian statesman, Charles of Austria , confronted this challenge every day. To his eyes, war appeared as “something appalling”. Amid the tumult of the First World War, he strove to promote the peace initiative of my Predecessor, Benedict XV.”
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_Austria
Most Muslims are not raving, bomb-throwing jihadists. They are farmers, cab drivers, cooks, shopkeepers, doctors, economists, or schoolteachers. I had a Muslim Palestinian roommate for one year at college. In 1986 he predicted the 1993 Oslo peace agreement between Begin and Arafat. He use to rise every morning at 5:30 a.m., wash his hair in the sink, and pray. He now works for an engineering firm in Chicago. I have a Pakistani co-worker, our resident computer geek. He spends his lunch hour every day at the local mosque, praying. He is a vocal supporter of the US and NATO efforts in Afghanistan.
My point is this: Before we imagine another military adventure in the Middle East, why don’t we dedicate that same energy and courage to a renewal of our own Faith here at home? How many Catholics rise at dawn to pray? How many spend lunch hour at the church instead of eating, even during Lent? People like my ex-roommate and my coworker would be the most likely victims of any violent crusade, not the terrorists, who simply run away and hide in the hills.
However, I am not opposed to an armed guard, composed of “military-minded Catholics,” to defend our brethren in Iraq, Palestine, or Lebanon, as was suggested on the “Warrior Monks?” thread. Any ideas on how to make that become reality?
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hosemonkey
Guest
“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.”
I could not agree more with this quotation. As another of our founding fathers has said;
“He who would trade freedom for security, deserves neither”. My concern is that the lives of our young men be wastefully spent in ill-conceived operations run at the behest of ill-advised or ill-intentioned civilians. Military operations are not the province of amateurs with political axes to grind. Crusades fit into the same category. Ill-conceived crusades fail at the same rate as ill-conceived secular wars. If we are to go crusading, let’s do our homework before we begin. A good crusade against moslem extremists and those who support them would not be such a bad idea, if done right.
I could not agree more with this quotation. As another of our founding fathers has said;
“He who would trade freedom for security, deserves neither”. My concern is that the lives of our young men be wastefully spent in ill-conceived operations run at the behest of ill-advised or ill-intentioned civilians. Military operations are not the province of amateurs with political axes to grind. Crusades fit into the same category. Ill-conceived crusades fail at the same rate as ill-conceived secular wars. If we are to go crusading, let’s do our homework before we begin. A good crusade against moslem extremists and those who support them would not be such a bad idea, if done right.
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Servus_Pio_XII
Guest
No matter the storm, Christ will preserve his Church…without our resort to arms.
The resort to arms shows a lack of faith that Christ will protect His Church, and that She needs to take arms for Herself.
The resort to arms shows a lack of faith that Christ will protect His Church, and that She needs to take arms for Herself.
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