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TemplarKnight
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Granted
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holdencaulfield
Guest
This is a hypothetical thread, if the cause was just and the need necessary, would you join a Crusade. I believe that I would, however it is a complex issue. Furthermore, one receives an Indulgence for their service. The only people who opposed the Crusades were the Muslims, who were content to kill Christians.
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StephenSeeks
Guest
can someone please tell me what profit there is in this whole thread???
really???
sounds like an argument between weeds and wheat to me
just when I think I am feeling comfortable with exploring the Catholic faith I read sickening arguments like this.
please forgive me, I am only in the process of conversion but thank you all for giving me STRONG reasons to pause!!!
really???
sounds like an argument between weeds and wheat to me
just when I think I am feeling comfortable with exploring the Catholic faith I read sickening arguments like this.
please forgive me, I am only in the process of conversion but thank you all for giving me STRONG reasons to pause!!!
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Servus_Pio_XII
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I would pause very strongly too if I were converting and 62% of Catholics were willing to go on a Crusade without even marking it as a “complicated issue”.
But, I presume - it could very well be my pacifism which has disgusted you. I don’t know, though I would be interested to know.
Woe is me if I have lead one away from the Faith! I beg forgiveness.
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StephenSeeks
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You would be the wheat in this awful thread Friend
in other words I am STRONGLY in favor of your position…if a crusade meant me standing before an army with innocents behind me and my only defense was hope in God, I would be there.
Vengeance is Gods, unless I am mistaken…The kingdom of God belongs to those who are like innocent children or am I again in error??
Thank you for your post…I guess all we need to know is that there are a few who believe in the goodness of the gospels.
I remember reading a story about a Pope who meet the armies of Mohammed on his own and stopped the attack on the Vatican, surely God was with him that day. that story impressed me so much that I began to look at the Catholic Church.
why are people so eager for bloodshed?
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StephenSeeks
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make that Pope Leo and the attack was by Attila the Hun against northern Italy (in 452)
Impressive man
Impressive man
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SanJudas
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God save all here.
In reply to Stephenseeks last post:
I was glad to hear you mention the story of Pope Leo saving Rome from invasion. As a child I read that story in my third grade Catholic history book. It was accompanied by a drawing of a bearded man in bishop’s dress speaking to a barbarian in furs, with horned helmet, a battle axe held in his hands but resting head down on the ground in a respectful way. That story and corresponding picture have stayed with me to this day.
The invading army turned away from sacking Rome was that of Atilla the Hun, the Muslim religion not yet having come into existence. The idea, however, is the same. Christian martyrs converted the Roman Empire from official paganism not by challenging it on the battlefield, but by “subverting” it from within. Early Christians transformed the Roman Empire through conversion, in spite of the fact that their religion was illegal and often bloodily persecuted, just as it is in some Muslim countries today.
The original crusade had a defensive purpose and was justifiable for that reason. Some here argue that the attacks on Christians in the Holy Land, Lebanon, or Iraq fall into the same category, and should be responded to in the same way. My question is–could they be responded to with brute military force? Can this be done with any reasonable certainty of success? Could this be done without massive civilian death? Can our current adventure in Iraq teach us something about the advisability of using a purely military option to solve problems in the Middle East? I believe the answers to those questions will also explain why our Holy Father has not called for any such action.
In reply to Stephenseeks last post:
I was glad to hear you mention the story of Pope Leo saving Rome from invasion. As a child I read that story in my third grade Catholic history book. It was accompanied by a drawing of a bearded man in bishop’s dress speaking to a barbarian in furs, with horned helmet, a battle axe held in his hands but resting head down on the ground in a respectful way. That story and corresponding picture have stayed with me to this day.
The invading army turned away from sacking Rome was that of Atilla the Hun, the Muslim religion not yet having come into existence. The idea, however, is the same. Christian martyrs converted the Roman Empire from official paganism not by challenging it on the battlefield, but by “subverting” it from within. Early Christians transformed the Roman Empire through conversion, in spite of the fact that their religion was illegal and often bloodily persecuted, just as it is in some Muslim countries today.
The original crusade had a defensive purpose and was justifiable for that reason. Some here argue that the attacks on Christians in the Holy Land, Lebanon, or Iraq fall into the same category, and should be responded to in the same way. My question is–could they be responded to with brute military force? Can this be done with any reasonable certainty of success? Could this be done without massive civilian death? Can our current adventure in Iraq teach us something about the advisability of using a purely military option to solve problems in the Middle East? I believe the answers to those questions will also explain why our Holy Father has not called for any such action.
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Servus_Pio_XII
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You warm my heart, brother
; beyond that, you present an excellent example.I’m not sure how Pope St. Leo the Great slipped my mind, but his is indeed an excellent tale of overcoming a militaristic, violent (barbaric) force bent on one’s destruction without resort to arms.
I’ll contend as I have contended before - the resort to arms is a very simple-minded, easy solution, and one whose inherent vindictive properties (let’s do to them what they did to us) satisfies our fallen natures to a large extent.
Even St. Bernard of Clairveaux, who supported the Crusades, realised this when he marked that most of the Crusaders had gone to war for ignoble, selfish and sinful reasons. I just wonder how one considers what even its staunch supporters considered an occassion for sin as an occassion for martyrdom.
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TemplarKnight
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God’s will be done. God bless you.You would be the wheat in this awful thread Friend
Stephen. I’m glad to see you walk into this thread, not even a Catholic, and start by calling people names. Since your reference to SPXII as the “wheat” in your “wheat and weeds” comparison, that would make me the weed? May I make a suggestion as your pursue your faith? That would be to read Matthew 7 before you continue any more of your assumptions. You know nothing of my works of faith, my works with the Catholic Church, who I am or what I have done. To make a broad statement about my faith by referring me as a “weed” only points out your spiritual immaturity and your general ignorance.
in other words I am STRONGLY in favor of your position…if a crusade meant me standing before an army with innocents behind me and my only defense was hope in God, I would be there.
So which is it? Do you STRONGLY support the position of a pacifist or are you going to stand before an army with innocents behind you and your only defense was hope in God? If you were not going fight, why would you be in front of the innocents? Why wouldn’t you BE one of the “innocents”? Doesn’t this appear very hypocritical to you?
Vengeance is Gods, unless I am mistaken
Can you explain to us in your infinite wisdom HOW God will take his vengeance? Do you know His will? Do you know how he will use His followers? If so, please share with all.
The kingdom of God belongs to those who are like innocent children or am I again in error??
Your reference to St. Mark 11:15 DR indicates your faith must be innocent and complete. Jesus is talking about the heart of children.
Thank you for your post…I guess all we need to know is that there are a few who believe in the goodness of the gospels.
**And there are a few who do not know the Bible outside of the gospels. **
I remember reading a story about a Pope who meet the armies of Mohammed on his own and stopped the attack on the Vatican, surely God was with him that day. that story impressed me so much that I began to look at the Catholic Church.
**What would have happened if he hadn’t? What would have happened if he didn’t stop the Geiseric Vandals three years later? As it was, the still invaded and sacked Rome. **
why are people so eager for bloodshed?
Please point out one person here who is eager for bloodshed. Please point out one person here who would not desire to prevent bloodshed at all costs. Because if you start pointing fingers I will reply to you that A) you do not know the definition of “Context”. B) you do not know the individuals of whom you speak and C) you know nothing of the Bible and history. The difference lies at the fork in the road where, after exhausting every possible peace effort to prevent bloodshed, those willing to defend the “innocents” will do so. Those willing to run and hide, will die in their holes. The example I give is posing the hypothetical question of what would have happened if Attila ran over Pope Leo? Or what if the Vandals killed Pope Leo and the rest of his clergy and continued to sack Rome? Do you do nothing and let the fire consume you or do you at least make some effort to stop them? If I’m going to die because of my faith, I would rather die with my wounds in the front than in the back running away. God will judge, no one else. GOD ALONE.
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TemplarKnight
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Servus_Pio_XII
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Let us not return to insults. You have just made as broad a statement about him on the grounds of one quote alone, extrapolating to judge both his spiritual development and intellect.
Please, let’s call it even and move on.
I can laud their faith whilst deploring their expression of it. For instance, disagreeing on all theological tenets, I can laud the faith and piety of an individual Hindoo.
If you compromise a fundamental of the Faith in its defence, are you truly defending the Faith, or are you destroying it from within?
And, let me tell you above all, the martyrs were no cowards. They were men of an integrity beyond mine and, I can guess - tho uncertain - yours. DO NOT degrade them.
Can anyone who is worthy see himself as worthy? I am nowise innocent, but I am nowise going to use my fallen nature as an excuse to fall further.
I will do all in my power, God help me, to prevent harm from coming to innocents but I will not war and I will not kill to save lives!
As an example to be followed.
Once again, are you under the Old Law or the New? I do not emulate the Old Covenant in all things, for it is not mine. Christianity is of the New Covenant.
And Christianity survived. Amazing, isn’t it, how Truth has a knack for survival without the interference of the bellicose?
I have trust in the grace of God that, as with St. Leo the Great, none of the crises you mention will happen. The Vandals did not kill the Pope, Attila backed down, God will always out, or God is not God.
The only difference in wounds between yourself and the nonviolent martyr is that the martyr, seeing the grave folly of war, was unwilling to inflict wounds - both the martyr and soldier are willing to receive them. The martyr moreso, for he makes no effort to save himself that would bring harm to another; it is the perfect love for all.
And yes, I skipped one point to save for last:
This is a question we ought to ask you, for it expresses our position well. We do NOT know how God will take revenge, we do NOT know His will to your overconfidence, and we do NOT know how he would use His followers.
Because we do NOT know any of these things, we canNOT claim to know that a Crusade is the will of God and canNOT in good conscience sally to war on the grounds of Deus Vult.
On the other hand, you claim that - should the call come - you would be able to recognise it as the will of God (as opposed to the personal opining of the Pope) to the point that you would be willing to KILL (read the word - take a life) on those grounds alone.
And you call us overconfident in our estimations of God’s will?! You, who speak in such terms?! How can I be anything but amused?
Amen. God’s will be done.
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StephenSeeks
Guest
Thank you TemplarKnight for pointing out Matthew 7, my assumption is that you want me to focus on the judge not portion of this chapter…but if you keep reading this same chapter you will find that it also warns us to be beware of false prophets (anyone who claims to speak from scripture or for God)…in the same chapter we are advised to judge the fruits of a person so that we may know if they speak the word of God or not.
I am not judging any persons ultimate eternal destination, I am not even sure if I can be assured a place in heaven…I do hope though (for everyone)
“Enter by the narrow gate for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction…”
you make a bold statement that I am not even a Catholic and therefore make the assumption that I have no right to challenge what my head, heart, soul and my swirling stomach say is not a scriptural or wise thread. (if a member of the public who is completely outside the walls of the Church were to see this thread, they would rightly conclude that there is no unity here)
I have come back for reconciliation but I am still full of fear and your call to arms and wordy attacks is all the proof I may have needed to RUN.
if it were not for Servus Pio XII, I would have believed that you were all as violent as the Catholic Brother (teacher) who slammed me against a brick wall, put his hands around my throat and strangled me for several minutes of insane terror that I will never forget.
I now know that even within the Church there are ravenous wolves and these wolves are everywhere inside and outside of the Church but the the flock of God is still here and survives every attack…as do I.
it does not matter if you are or are not that violent, as Ambassadors for Christ the image that you reflect to the world is of the utmost importance.
if my choice of words has lead you in any way to feel anger, I am sorry…it was only my intention to show how dangerous this thread is…to illustrate how it does not take much to send people who are already in fear fleeing in the other direction.
TemplarKnight, you also ask me to explain in my infinite wisdom HOW God will take his vengeance?
firstly, I thank you for being one of the few who can see I have infinite wisdom (just joking)
any wisdom I have accessed comes from scripture, tradition and history.
Christ told us to make disciples of all nations and if we are rejected to walk on our way and shake the dust off our feet. he told us to follow his example. I do not recall him ever picking up the sword.
I end with the wise words of SanJudas “God Save us all”
I am not judging any persons ultimate eternal destination, I am not even sure if I can be assured a place in heaven…I do hope though
(for everyone)“Enter by the narrow gate for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction…”
you make a bold statement that I am not even a Catholic and therefore make the assumption that I have no right to challenge what my head, heart, soul and my swirling stomach say is not a scriptural or wise thread. (if a member of the public who is completely outside the walls of the Church were to see this thread, they would rightly conclude that there is no unity here)
- I was born into a Catholic family and Baptised within weeks of my birth.
- I attended Catholic schools
- I was so active as a child/teenager in the church I was mocked all throughout my schooling years. (even by the teachers)
- my own Family thought I was crazy due to my mini alter and devotion to God, Mary and the Saints.
- We have 2 priests within my extended family.
I have come back for reconciliation but I am still full of fear and your call to arms and wordy attacks is all the proof I may have needed to RUN.
if it were not for Servus Pio XII, I would have believed that you were all as violent as the Catholic Brother (teacher) who slammed me against a brick wall, put his hands around my throat and strangled me for several minutes of insane terror that I will never forget.
I now know that even within the Church there are ravenous wolves and these wolves are everywhere inside and outside of the Church but the the flock of God is still here and survives every attack…as do I.
it does not matter if you are or are not that violent, as Ambassadors for Christ the image that you reflect to the world is of the utmost importance.
if my choice of words has lead you in any way to feel anger, I am sorry…it was only my intention to show how dangerous this thread is…to illustrate how it does not take much to send people who are already in fear fleeing in the other direction.
TemplarKnight, you also ask me to explain in my infinite wisdom HOW God will take his vengeance?
firstly, I thank you for being one of the few who can see I have infinite wisdom (just joking)
any wisdom I have accessed comes from scripture, tradition and history.
Christ told us to make disciples of all nations and if we are rejected to walk on our way and shake the dust off our feet. he told us to follow his example. I do not recall him ever picking up the sword.
I end with the wise words of SanJudas “God Save us all”
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TemplarKnight
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TemplarKnight
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Thank you TemplarKnight for pointing out Matthew 7, my assumption is that you want me to focus on the judge not portion of this chapter…but if you keep reading this same chapter you will find that it also warns us to be beware of false prophets (anyone who claims to speak from scripture or for God)…in the same chapter we are advised to judge the fruits of a person so that we may know if they speak the word of God or not.
You point out two specific instances where you should have “practiced what you preached”. One, I never claimed to speak for God. Second, you cannot judge me by my fruits as you do not know me. I don’t know how you could even postulate that statement.
you make a bold statement that I am not even a Catholic and therefore make the assumption that I have no right to challenge what my head, heart, soul and my swirling stomach say is not a scriptural or wise thread.
If you are not knowledgeable of the scriptures, then how are you going to criticize an interpretation of the scriptures?
(if a member of the public who is completely outside the walls of the Church were to see this thread, they would rightly conclude that there is no unity here)
There are many, many manifestations of the Church for non-Catholics to conclude unity within the Church. I wouldn’t rely on a friendly discussion on a public forum to sway my beliefs.
it was, however, easy for me to be lead astray, being a victim of violent and sexual abuse at the hands of Catholic people.
**Why was it in the hands of “Catholic people”? What did their religion have to do with it? As if they would not have performed such monstrosities if they were Baptist? I am truly sorry you were abused though. **
I could see when I was told that the Church was evil, how this position could be true…evil is what I was shown within the Church, so how could I, in good conscious, defend the same Church that left my life in ruins?
Because you took out your hurt and anger on the Church when the Church had nothing to do with it. The faith of your attackers was irrelevant. And the fact that you were told the Church was “evil”. Who told you the Church was “evil” and where was your “devotion” you alluded to earlier?
I have come back for reconciliation but I am still full of fear and your call to arms and wordy attacks is all the proof I may have needed to RUN.
**My wordy attacks? I guess being called a “weed” is a compliment in your part of the country. Maybe you live in the weed capital of the world. And if you call my posts a “call to arms” then you have not read my posts. I’m still wondering what steps you are taking to reconcile yourself and how one lowly individual can dissuade you so easily. God forbid you run into a mormon, they’ll have you in tears. **
if it were not for Servus Pio XII, I would have believed that you were all as violent as the Catholic Brother (teacher) who slammed me against a brick wall, put his hands around my throat and strangled me for several minutes of insane terror that I will never forget.
Well thank God for SPXII. Based on an isolated conversation, on a public forum, between (mostly) two individuals who you know NOTHING about, you want to make a blanket, benighted statement. Don’t take this the wrong way buy I’m truly curious as to your maturity level.
You point out two specific instances where you should have “practiced what you preached”. One, I never claimed to speak for God. Second, you cannot judge me by my fruits as you do not know me. I don’t know how you could even postulate that statement.
you make a bold statement that I am not even a Catholic and therefore make the assumption that I have no right to challenge what my head, heart, soul and my swirling stomach say is not a scriptural or wise thread.
If you are not knowledgeable of the scriptures, then how are you going to criticize an interpretation of the scriptures?
(if a member of the public who is completely outside the walls of the Church were to see this thread, they would rightly conclude that there is no unity here)
There are many, many manifestations of the Church for non-Catholics to conclude unity within the Church. I wouldn’t rely on a friendly discussion on a public forum to sway my beliefs.
- I was born into a Catholic family and Baptised within weeks of my birth.
- I attended Catholic schools
- I was so active as a child/teenager in the church I was mocked all throughout my schooling years. (even by the teachers)
- my own Family thought I was crazy due to my mini alter and devotion to God, Mary and the Saints.
it was, however, easy for me to be lead astray, being a victim of violent and sexual abuse at the hands of Catholic people.
**Why was it in the hands of “Catholic people”? What did their religion have to do with it? As if they would not have performed such monstrosities if they were Baptist? I am truly sorry you were abused though. **
I could see when I was told that the Church was evil, how this position could be true…evil is what I was shown within the Church, so how could I, in good conscious, defend the same Church that left my life in ruins?
Because you took out your hurt and anger on the Church when the Church had nothing to do with it. The faith of your attackers was irrelevant. And the fact that you were told the Church was “evil”. Who told you the Church was “evil” and where was your “devotion” you alluded to earlier?
I have come back for reconciliation but I am still full of fear and your call to arms and wordy attacks is all the proof I may have needed to RUN.
**My wordy attacks? I guess being called a “weed” is a compliment in your part of the country. Maybe you live in the weed capital of the world. And if you call my posts a “call to arms” then you have not read my posts. I’m still wondering what steps you are taking to reconcile yourself and how one lowly individual can dissuade you so easily. God forbid you run into a mormon, they’ll have you in tears. **
if it were not for Servus Pio XII, I would have believed that you were all as violent as the Catholic Brother (teacher) who slammed me against a brick wall, put his hands around my throat and strangled me for several minutes of insane terror that I will never forget.
Well thank God for SPXII. Based on an isolated conversation, on a public forum, between (mostly) two individuals who you know NOTHING about, you want to make a blanket, benighted statement. Don’t take this the wrong way buy I’m truly curious as to your maturity level.
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TemplarKnight
Guest
I now know that even within the Church there are ravenous wolves and these wolves are everywhere inside and outside of the Church but the the flock of God is still here and survives every attack…as do I.
Yet you’ve stated earlier you are “full of fear” and “may have needed to run”. So if you know there is bad within the Church, you should either ignore it, find refuge in brothers, or fight it. Whichever your strength and faith allows. But your “survives every attack…as do I” reeks of hypocrisy.
it does not matter if you are or are not that violent, as Ambassadors for Christ the image that you reflect to the world is of the utmost importance.
No it is not. For unlike the Pharisees, I don’t care what my public perception is. I care about my works and how God sees my faith and heart. If the public is not going to judge me on my charitable works and actions, and only judge me on my “image”, then maybe I should grow a beard and my hair long and where a frock carrying a Bible and a Rosary. Then I’ll be the most devout Catholic right?
if my choice of words has lead you in any way to feel anger, I am sorry…it was only my intention to show how dangerous this thread is…to illustrate how it does not take much to send people who are already in fear fleeing in the other direction.
Your words did not anger me. But thank you for the apology. Discussion is never dangerous. If anything, I could easily argue-as I’m certain SPXII would-that conversation prevents action and promotes goodwill.
TemplarKnight, you also ask me to explain in my infinite wisdom HOW God will take his vengeance?
firstly, I thank you for being one of the few who can see I have infinite wisdom (just joking)
**I have a keen eye. **
any wisdom I have accessed comes from scripture, tradition and history.
Which is only your interpretation of said sources correct? Isn’t that what you alluded to in your earlier statement?
Christ told us to make disciples of all nations and if we are rejected to walk on our way and shake the dust off our feet. he told us to follow his example. I do not recall him ever picking up the sword.
While you’re reading scripture, please turn to Joel 3:9 DR
I end with the wise words of SanJudas “God Save us all”
AMEN
Yet you’ve stated earlier you are “full of fear” and “may have needed to run”. So if you know there is bad within the Church, you should either ignore it, find refuge in brothers, or fight it. Whichever your strength and faith allows. But your “survives every attack…as do I” reeks of hypocrisy.
it does not matter if you are or are not that violent, as Ambassadors for Christ the image that you reflect to the world is of the utmost importance.
No it is not. For unlike the Pharisees, I don’t care what my public perception is. I care about my works and how God sees my faith and heart. If the public is not going to judge me on my charitable works and actions, and only judge me on my “image”, then maybe I should grow a beard and my hair long and where a frock carrying a Bible and a Rosary. Then I’ll be the most devout Catholic right?
if my choice of words has lead you in any way to feel anger, I am sorry…it was only my intention to show how dangerous this thread is…to illustrate how it does not take much to send people who are already in fear fleeing in the other direction.
Your words did not anger me. But thank you for the apology. Discussion is never dangerous. If anything, I could easily argue-as I’m certain SPXII would-that conversation prevents action and promotes goodwill.
TemplarKnight, you also ask me to explain in my infinite wisdom HOW God will take his vengeance?
firstly, I thank you for being one of the few who can see I have infinite wisdom (just joking)
**I have a keen eye.
**any wisdom I have accessed comes from scripture, tradition and history.
Which is only your interpretation of said sources correct? Isn’t that what you alluded to in your earlier statement?
Christ told us to make disciples of all nations and if we are rejected to walk on our way and shake the dust off our feet. he told us to follow his example. I do not recall him ever picking up the sword.
While you’re reading scripture, please turn to Joel 3:9 DR
I end with the wise words of SanJudas “God Save us all”
AMEN
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StephenSeeks
Guest
TemplarKnight, if my statements give the appearance of reeking in hypocrisy and my willingness to offer personal information to try and make a point of how fragile people can be when coming to (or back to) faith is missing the mark, then I am doing a very weak job of defending this position.
you seem very upset over my weeds statement, I will again apologize .
yes I am in a vulnerable position, which is why I see my parish priest every week, so you can be sure that I am going through a process of reconciliation the right way…thank you for your concern.
if you re-read my last post you will see I do not blame the Church and yes I used to, yes I was and am weak and yes my devotion crumbled. thank you for pointing it out, it is most uplifting.
there is nothing wrong with looking to Brothers and Sisters in Christ to assist us in coming home…that is the very reason I am here.
there is nothing wrong with my heart knowing that Servus Pio XII speaks under inspiration of the Holy Spirit even though I don’t know Servus Pio XII in the flesh. his words soothed and calmed my fears.
on that note sir, I will bow out of this debate as my ability to communicate seems lacking but I still hold strong (as I have all my life) that violence is in all situations wrong.
I will however talk to my PP and get his view of this lively ummmmm conversation
you seem very upset over my weeds statement, I will again apologize .
yes I am in a vulnerable position, which is why I see my parish priest every week, so you can be sure that I am going through a process of reconciliation the right way…thank you for your concern.
if you re-read my last post you will see I do not blame the Church and yes I used to, yes I was and am weak and yes my devotion crumbled. thank you for pointing it out, it is most uplifting.
there is nothing wrong with looking to Brothers and Sisters in Christ to assist us in coming home…that is the very reason I am here.
there is nothing wrong with my heart knowing that Servus Pio XII speaks under inspiration of the Holy Spirit even though I don’t know Servus Pio XII in the flesh. his words soothed and calmed my fears.
on that note sir, I will bow out of this debate as my ability to communicate seems lacking but I still hold strong (as I have all my life) that violence is in all situations wrong.
I will however talk to my PP and get his view of this lively ummmmm conversation
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Servus_Pio_XII
Guest
I’m admonishing none. I’m pointing out that a one-to-one exchange of generalisations has been given, and that we ought call it even, instead of acting like we are in an honour-based society
.Of course. I think their methods of showing it were as mad as the Shia Moslems who walk through burning coals to prove their faith, but I don’t doubt the sincerety of some of the Crusaders in their belief that God’s will was being accomplished.
I for one, am willing to love the ignorant aggressor and the innocent victim alike, I have no problem with that.
I would guess that you would not be so quick to hold off upon questioning if, say, a sect arose that believed that the will of Christ was free love, and that marriage should be abolished as an act of selfishness (real sect).
Same principle. If not pacifism, then peace is certainly a higher ideal amongst Christians (at least the early ones) than temporal power ever was or will be. Thus, I see no reason, if loss of temporal power is threatened, to compromise a commitment to peace.
Remember as well, just because my statement may be mere informed opinion, that does not mean its converse is Divine Writ. And, you must admit, when two opinions of otherwise equal merit conflict, the most moderate is usually the wisest course.
Martyrdom is the laying down of one’s life for Christ.
If you have a sword in your hand, you are not laying down your life - you are fighting desparately to keep it. A most understandable course, but hardly a martyrdom. You cannot have it both ways.
Almost everything we’re debating is opinion, since the Church has not yet disqualified pacifism as a legitimate viewpoint. Therefore, in this case, being an opinion does not disqualify an argument - to the contrary, we are arguing which opinion is the best.
I have not been given power over life and death. That is God’s. All other means at my disposal will have been dispensed of to save that child, perhaps even to the point of lesser violence; but never killing. Never killing.
Yet the new extrapolates on the old, completes its understanding. Were the old complete, Christ would be unnecessary. Christ came that we might better understand God’s nature, and His nature is reflected perfectly in Christ’s example.
Is not, then, an understanding of the Gospels an understanding of God Himself?
I cannot prove it, no. But I can have faith that it will be so. All I can say to your hypotheticals is that, no matter what, God will out. God will out.
I have to write some music for the morrow, and I tire.
I will reply to the rest tomorrow. Have a blessed Pascha!
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Freshman88
Guest
Just wanted to correct something that caught my eye…
Although Pope Leo the Great did not resort to arms, he had no arms to resort to - the Roman armies had already been defeated and the emperor was hiding in Ravenna.
Although Pope Leo the Great did not resort to arms, he had no arms to resort to - the Roman armies had already been defeated and the emperor was hiding in Ravenna.
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Potato1
Guest
God bless you stephen.TemplarKnight, if my statements give the appearance of reeking in hypocrisy and my willingness to offer personal information to try and make a point of how fragile people can be when coming to (or back to) faith is missing the mark, then I am doing a very weak job of defending this position.
you seem very upset over my weeds statement, I will again apologize .
yes I am in a vulnerable position, which is why I see my parish priest every week, so you can be sure that I am going through a process of reconciliation the right way…thank you for your concern.
if you re-read my last post you will see I do not blame the Church and yes I used to, yes I was and am weak and yes my devotion crumbled. thank you for pointing it out, it is most uplifting.
there is nothing wrong with looking to Brothers and Sisters in Christ to assist us in coming home…that is the very reason I am here.
there is nothing wrong with my heart knowing that Servus Pio XII speaks under inspiration of the Holy Spirit even though I don’t know Servus Pio XII in the flesh. his words soothed and calmed my fears.
on that note sir, I will bow out of this debate as my ability to communicate seems lacking but I still hold strong (as I have all my life) that violence is in all situations wrong.
I will however talk to my PP and get his view of this lively ummmmm conversation
I hope your jouney ends in peace and love that only the Church provides. I Am sincere in this regard. You seem hurt. I hope that your fleeting emotions are laid to peace by God in His one True Church. Remember that Catholics can disagree all the while being faithful to Her Guidence. My violence would only protect those who are innocent or could not/would not protect themselves. call me primordial if you wish but I would Gladly fight and die for you and many other innocents. “there is no greater love than to lay down ones life for thier friends” (the actual word iis not friends but tribe/ brothers. So, brother, I pray for you and I ask you to pray for me. For while we do not agree on the ways of the world we agree as Gods Children. And as such we are in Communion with the Church and Her Head. God bless Happy Easter.
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StephenSeeks
Guest
Thank you Potato1 I guess I can respond to this and still be out of the debate ha-ha
I regret my posts in this thread as they have given the wrong impression of what I was trying communicate (and I now have a very red face when I read them the day after
)…I do not feel hurt any more, however the effects are still there…I guess it’s like war when the battle is long over the effects of battle linger.I am not in a boo hoo state of mind, there are just mines within my mind and certain things can set them off. (how am I doing with my war/weapon analogy?)
this thread set off several mental explosions.my vulnerability (and no doubt the vulnerability of many others) is an issue of trust. letting go and saying yes I can trust Catholics and the Church.
we need to know that there is a peaceful refuge that is for all who feel a deep yearning for it, a place of safety that all can approach with confidence.
it’s also important (I feel) that because many (me included) have been the victims of revisionist history in regards to Church history with a slant towards painting the Church as an institution of blood shed and world domination, this topic might set of mental mines in many people. (hmmmmm am I back in the debate
)we would make a heck of a pair Potato1…if we stood in the same place and under attack, you would be trying to stand in front of me ready to fight and lay down your life for me, and I would be trying to stand in front of you to lay down my life for you without a fight…I have a feeling the enemy would get rather bored with our fight to be the one to die for the other they would walk away in disgust.
Thank you for your post, it put a smile on my face…thank you for your sincerity and prayers (I will absolutely pray for you also)
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