Would you lie to convert someone?

[NotWorthy]

I brought this up on another thread and thought it deserves a discussion of it own. I have a friend that told me that Catholics worship idols and saints. After showing him the Catholic teachings on “Communion of Saints” and “Intercessory Prayers”, he agreed that he’d never heard it that way. He didn’t necessarily agree, but he understood that praying in front of a statue does not mean we are worshipping an idol.

So now, I tell him, if he tries that same line to attempt to convert another Catholic, then he is lying. In my book, lying to someone, in order to convert them to your own faith, is pretty despicable. How can you justify this before God?

This isn’t meant to be a discourse on statues and worship, but a discussion on knowingly misrepresenting someone’s Churches’ teaching in order to lead them away from their faith.

What are your thoughts?

NotWorthy

 

[severinus]

Jack Chick does it all the time. He’s not the only one; some of our fundie friends continue to lie about the Church’s teachings even when shown a Catechism. Lies are not of God, so maybe they get their motivation from another source…

 

[scylla]

I just got off the phone with a missionary from Calvary Chapel and boy was it a long discussion.

We went from Mary, to statues, to the Bible, to persecution. And everytime I kept answering his questions he kept asking more. I would try and keep it on one subject and he wouldn’t listen.

He kept accusing us of worshipping statues, and I would say that the Church doesn’t. It is forbidden but we use them as reminders, we respect what the statue represents, we care for the statue because of what it represents. (kinda like using the name of God in vain) Yet he kept saying but I have seen Catholics worship statues.

He just wouldn’t listen no matter which way I presented it to him. I told him, if he knows it against Church teaching why does he accuse us of it? And he would just respond that he has seen Catholics do it so that is why.

I came up with, if I see a protestant pastor doing something wrong does that mean the Bible is wrong? Yet he wouldn’t even pay attention to my point. Finally my wife made me get off the phone as it was taking a super long time.

I will discuss this with him later, but sometimes bias is so difficult to overcome. He doesn’t care what the Catholic Church teaches, just what he thinks it teaches.

BTW anyone have any good links on Papal Infabillity?

God Bless
Scylla

 

[ElizabethJoy]

My thoughts are pretty much in line with yours. It’s really stinko (to say the least) to have found that everything I ever thought about Catholicism was a big fat lie. I would not ever knowingly teach lies against any religion.

My parents passed along to me the prejudices against the Church that were passed to them. I passed along everything I “knew” about Catholicism to others. (And in reparation, I pray the Divine Mercy daily for conversions, especially for anyone who I may have turned away from Christ! Believe me, that hangs heavy in the soul. )

And I wish that it had occurred to me at some point that just because someone is a pastor or a religious leader doesn’t mean that they will always tell the truth about other Christian denominations or other religions. This is most definitely NOT the case.

I guess it just is what it is. I could have, at any time, decided to question the assertions about Catholicism, but I didn’t, so I’m just as angry at myself as I am at the pastors and other leaders who lied to me.

 

[alterserver_07]

I would have to say that it is lying, and that there soul would be in very grave danger if they keep on using the same thing even when they know it is not true. Now, if they don’t know, that is a different thing ofcorse.

 

[deb1]

The ends do not justify the means-as the old saying goes. If you lie to convert someone, sooner or later that person will be presented with the truth. No matter what good you have done in that persons life, they will view you and your beliefs as suspect.

I would much rather present the truth and have someone walk away then for me to distort what I believe. I have to much respect for my religion then to lie. Isn’t it an insult to God, to purposely distort the truth about him?

I don’t think that most people purposely tell lies about the Catholic church. They simply do not know better.

There are some for who witnessing becomes a point of personal pride. If they can confuse you or get you to follow their beliefs then their egos are soothed. It has nothing to do with God, just their own ego trips.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

NotWorthy:

I brought this up on another thread and thought it deserves a discussion of it own. I have a friend that told me that Catholics worship idols and saints. After showing him the Catholic teachings on “Communion of Saints” and “Intercessory Prayers”, he agreed that he’d never heard it that way. He didn’t necessarily agree, but he understood that praying in front of a statue does not mean we are worshipping an idol.

So now, I tell him, if he tries that same line to attempt to convert another Catholic, then he is lying. In my book, lying to someone, in order to convert them to your own faith, is pretty despicable. How can you justify this before God?

This isn’t meant to be a discourse on statues and worship, but a discussion on knowingly misrepresenting someone’s Churches’ teaching in order to lead them away from their faith.

What are your thoughts?

NotWorthy

1. “…The devil is the father of [lies]” (John 8.44)
2. God has no need of our lies
3. To use the devil’s means to do the work of Christ makes no sense - to say the least. To lie in order to serve God’s Truth, makes no sense.
4. Lying is wrong - always. There are no exceptions of any kind whatever.
5. “Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD” (Proverbs 12.22)

6 “And it is to this you were called; because Christ also suffered on your behalf, leaving you an example so that you should follow in His steps. He never sinned, and no deceitful language was ever heard from His mouth” (1 Peter 2. 21, 22.)

1. Why use something as ugly as a lie to propagate something as beautiful as truth - especially the truth of the Gospel ?

 

[arieh0310]

I once had a friend forward me a link to a “great” sermon about the errors of Catholicism (coincidentally, the link was sent to me 1 week after I read “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” which had totally destroyed all my misconceptions about the Church). This pastor, who is affiliated with Calvary Chapel, was basically saying that the early church was identical to his church until Contsantine corrupted it and turned it into a pagan Babylonian cult.

Newly armed with Biblical and historical proof I email the pastor and informed him of his errors in regard to: pagan influence, transubstantiation, papal infallibility, worshiping saints, and others. This was his reply:

*"Dear Arieh,

We could debate your “facts” but that’s not the point. The Catholic faith has added many practices that are not given in the Bible. My point is that we should use God’s Word to define the church and it’s practice, not man’s made-up ideas. People can wear robes and pointy hats, rings, if they want to, but the church should not require these practices to qualify as legitimate worship.

Just a little heads up . . . People might be more receptive to your information if you would add just a touch of humility.

Sincerely," *

What’s with the scare quotes around facts? Touch of humility? All I did was send him historical proof of his errors and did so with charity. It just seems that some people are so blinded with bias that they refuse to even look outside their own comfy paradigm.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

scylla:

I just got off the phone with a missionary from Calvary Chapel and boy was it a long discussion.

We went from Mary, to statues, to the Bible, to persecution. And everytime I kept answering his questions he kept asking more. I would try and keep it on one subject and he wouldn’t listen.

He kept accusing us of worshipping statues, and I would say that the Church doesn’t. It is forbidden but we use them as reminders, we respect what the statue represents, we care for the statue because of what it represents. (kinda like using the name of God in vain) Yet he kept saying but I have seen Catholics worship statues.

He just wouldn’t listen no matter which way I presented it to him. I told him, if he knows it against Church teaching why does he accuse us of it? And he would just respond that he has seen Catholics do it so that is why.

I came up with, if I see a protestant pastor doing something wrong does that mean the Bible is wrong? Yet he wouldn’t even pay attention to my point. Finally my wife made me get off the phone as it was taking a super long time.

I will discuss this with him later, but sometimes bias is so difficult to overcome. He doesn’t care what the Catholic Church teaches, just what he thinks it teaches.

BTW anyone have any good links on Papal Infabillity?

God Bless
Scylla

Hi!

How’d you get into this phone discussion anyway?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

No, I wouldn’t outright lie to someone to try and convert them. I don’t even really try to convert anyone. If someone asked me something about my faith and I made a mistake, then a mistake is a mistake and I would probably correct myself if I found out later. Lying to people to convert them is just idiotic and if they found out you lied; wouldn’t it make that person bitter? Why do you have to lie to show a person the truth anyway?

God bless,

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

scylla:

I just got off the phone with a missionary from Calvary Chapel and boy was it a long discussion.

We went from Mary, to statues, to the Bible, to persecution. And everytime I kept answering his questions he kept asking more. I would try and keep it on one subject and he wouldn’t listen.

He kept accusing us of worshipping statues, and I would say that the Church doesn’t. It is forbidden but we use them as reminders, we respect what the statue represents, we care for the statue because of what it represents. (kinda like using the name of God in vain) Yet he kept saying but I have seen Catholics worship statues.

He just wouldn’t listen no matter which way I presented it to him. I told him, if he knows it against Church teaching why does he accuse us of it? And he would just respond that he has seen Catholics do it so that is why.

I came up with, if I see a protestant pastor doing something wrong does that mean the Bible is wrong? Yet he wouldn’t even pay attention to my point. Finally my wife made me get off the phone as it was taking a super long time.

I will discuss this with him later, but sometimes bias is so difficult to overcome. He doesn’t care what the Catholic Church teaches, just what he thinks it teaches.

BTW anyone have any good links on Papal Infabillity?

God Bless
Scylla

catholic.com/library/papal_infallibility.asp

 

[tadly]

1. “…The devil is the father of [lies]” (John 8.44)

1. God has no need of our lies
2. To use the devil’s means to do the work of Christ makes no sense - to say the least. To lie in order to serve God’s Truth, makes no sense.
3. Lying is wrong - always. There are no exceptions of any kind whatever.
4. “Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD” (Proverbs 12.22)

6 “And it is to this you were called; because Christ also suffered on your behalf, leaving you an example so that you should follow in His steps. He never sinned, and no deceitful language was ever heard from His mouth” (1 Peter 2. 21, 22.)

1. Why use something as ugly as a lie to propagate something as beautiful as truth - especially the truth of the Gospel ?

This is all true.

 

[Beebs]

I am a little unsure of your question.

I understand your point that protestants lie (careful they may be just ignorant and unintentionally spreading false teaching)

For those who know and lie, my God have mercy on them and I urge you all to pray for the Holy Spirt to guild them away from their errors.

As for Catholics, why lie, show them the truth.

If they are in error on what we belive show them the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Beebs

 

[scylla]

I got into the phone discussion after he called me, to check on a video he lent me. I told him the video was mis-representing Catholicism and bearing false witness. I gave him some examples why and then he got pretty testy. Next thing I knew I was in a long discussion for about an hour or so.

I already had spent a few hours in my house a couple months ago pretty much answering every one of his questions. Now he is falling back on saying, he doesn’t care about history since he only believes in the Bible.

I lent him Rome Sweet Rome, he read some of it. I lent him a question and answer book, he has read a little, and he hopefully will watch the Journey Home video I lent him. I have been reading his material, it is like pulling teeth to get him to pay attention to what I am showing him.

All I can do is continue and pray that his heart will soften.

Just show the truth and it hopefully will plant seeds.

God Bless
Scylla

Thanks for the link, I am currently reviewing “Jesus, Peter and the Keys”

 

[Fergal]

Firstly no human can convert anyone. God alone converts.

Since the premise. in this case, would be lies, God certainly would not effect a conversion based on this.

Any conversion that seems to come about because of lies is not of God.

 

[Beebs]

scylla:

I already had spent a few hours in my house a couple months ago pretty much answering every one of his questions. Now he is falling back on saying, he doesn’t care about history since he only believes in the Bible.

:crying: very sad indead. It was church history that was the reason I became a revet.

I had bought into the ideas that the bible was not written until 300AD and subsequent copies were changed. You know that you can’t trust it completely.

On my journey back I read the history of the Early Church Father, the history of the bible and the history of the Church.

It was mind blowing to find out there were fragments of Mark’s before 70 ad and that the 1,000’s of copies of the letters and gosples pre-date 200 AD and they are 99% identical except for minor spelling errors to today’s bible. Also the Dead Sea Scrolls had the entire scroll of Isaiah which is virtual identical to the bible, that’s 2700 years unchanged.

It was something Dr. Peter Kreeft said about his Journey Home.
He was trying to prove Catholics were wrong and realized he should be able to use history to prove that Catholics added all the “pagan stuff”.

What he found from reading the Early Church Father (70 to 100 AD is enough) is that they were Catholics . Reading it for myself I had to agree.

Beebs

 

[scylla]

Amen Fergal!

God gives people the grace to convert, even when it is difficult for them to do so.

This could lead into a whole new thread, where we can speculate about conversion to other religions, or from one religion to another, or just loosing faith. That might not be classified as conversion depending on your point of view but more following convictions or opinions.

When I was last talking to this missionary he mentioned another Catholic he talked to who he said now attends Calvary Chapel. He told me that once he showed this former Catholic where Catholics added to the Bible during the reformation he started going to Calvary Chapel. I was appalled, told him I thought that was wrong, but he keeps insisting that we made up books and changed the Bible.

God Bless, I am going to take a break as just thinking about that disturbs me. I am going to the beach,

Scylla

 

[Della]

scylla:

I got into the phone discussion after he called me, to check on a video he lent me. I told him the video was mis-representing Catholicism and bearing false witness. I gave him some examples why and then he got pretty testy. Next thing I knew I was in a long discussion for about an hour or so.

I already had spent a few hours in my house a couple months ago pretty much answering every one of his questions. Now he is falling back on saying, he doesn’t care about history since he only believes in the Bible.

I lent him Rome Sweet Rome, he read some of it. I lent him a question and answer book, he has read a little, and he hopefully will watch the Journey Home video I lent him. I have been reading his material, it is like pulling teeth to get him to pay attention to what I am showing him.

All I can do is continue and pray that his heart will soften.

Just show the truth and it hopefully will plant seeds.

God Bless
Scylla

Thanks for the link, I am currently reviewing “Jesus, Peter and the Keys”

Your friend is afraid. That is why he doesn’t want to know what the Church actually teaches. People who live within the Fundamentalist mind set have to believe what they do or be eternally lost, or so they think. They think that if they deny their personal experience of Christ for the teachings of the Church they will lose their salvation because they believe their salvation depends on “having a personal relationship with Jesus”. Their prayer life is centered in this belief as well as their reading of the Bible.

Allay his fears by telling him that he doesn’t have to deny having a personal relationship with Christ in order to embrace the teachings of the Church. Let him know that his faith life is legitimate, but his understanding is faulty, but God has not held that against him because he didn’t know the truth about the Church.

Catholics too have a personal relationship with Jesus but we don’t call it that and don’t rely on it for our salvation, because that is not the criteria for salvation. That phrase along with the phrase “accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior” is not biblical. But, baptism and confession and doing good works are.

Instead of fending off his questions, go on the offensive (in the best sense of the word) and help him see that what he fears is nothing and what he has to gain is everything.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

scylla:

Now he is falling back on saying, he doesn’t care about history since he only believes in the Bible.

"

Was it Augustine who said “To be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant”? I think some Protestants are aware of this on some level which is why they stay away from it.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Della]

Catholic4aReasn:

Was it Augustine who said “To be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant”? I think some Protestants are aware of this on some level which is why they stay away from it.

In Christ,
Nancy

You’re thinking of John Henry Cardinal Newman, a convert from Anglicanism to Catholicism.