Would you lie to hide Catholics?

  • Thread starter Thread starter kage_ar
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
K

kage_ar

Guest
This is a situation that we all may face, and soon!!

The Catholic Church is declared illegal. She is forced to go underground - there is a “State Sponsored” Church that calls itself Catholic, but, that permits gay marriage and abortion rights, all those things that made the Church be branded as intolerant and illegal.

Would you hide Priests in your house? Would you lie when the US Soldiers come to your door, asking if you are hiding Catholics?
 
It’s my understanding that we cannot outright lie, but that we can obfuscate the truth.

“What, me? Hide a priest in my house? What a joke!” rather than “I am not hiding a priest in my house.”

Or “There is no priest here” with the mental reservation of “at the front door.”
 
kage_ar said:
This is a situation that we all may face, and soon!!

The Catholic Church is declared illegal. She is forced to go underground - there is a “State Sponsored” Church that calls itself Catholic, but, that permits gay marriage and abortion rights, all those things that made the Church be branded as intolerant and illegal.

Would you hide Priests in your house? Would you lie when the US Soldiers come to your door, asking if you are hiding Catholics?
Click to expand...
Yes. I would be willing to hide catholics in my house. And I would be willing to protect them from the prying eyes of an evil government. Even if that requires “misdirecting” them by my statements.

Lying - in the broadest sense, may not be a sin. After all we might tell someone that they are not getting a birthday cake, knowing that you’ve already ordered one, just to preserve and enhance a surprise.
The commandment is to not, “bear false witness against your neighbor”. Hiding and protecting Catholics by “misdirecting” those seeking to kill them is not Lying because there is no “malicious intent” in the statements.

Peace
James
 
It would depend if those Catholics thought it was sinful to lie in the circumstances or not;)
 
Isn’t there something in the catechism that says if faced with a choice between a lesser and a greater sin, you must choose the lesser? Perhaps someone who knows the catechism can back this up.
St_Francis said:
It’s my understanding that we cannot outright lie, but that we can obfuscate the truth.

“What, me? Hide a priest in my house? What a joke!” rather than “I am not hiding a priest in my house.”

**Obfuscating the truth like that is the same thing as lying. **

Or “There is no priest here” with the mental reservation of “at the front door.”

Also lying. It’s like I say “no Catholics in here” with my fingers crossed behind my back.
Click to expand...
It is a lie. Plain and simple. However, I believe telling the truth in this scenario is wrong because it means you are so scrupulously trying to avoid a sin of your own (the lie) that you would surrender innocent people to their persecutors. This is not a case of doing evil so that good may come of it. It is a matter of being forced to choose between a lesser and a greater evil.
 
I hate to say it, but I probably would be to nervous in a situation like that to pull off the mental reservation thing correctly and would probably end up flat out lieing…

I’m trying to imagine how I would react, and my gut says I wouldn’t want to hesitate, so that they didn’t think that I was lieing, but then the words don’t come to me quick enough to plan out and say something like “no, there are no catholics here” and then in my mind say (“who want to see you”). So I probably would end up responding quickly, and phrasing things in a way that makes the mental reservation difficult to accomplish in a logical way. I’m also afraid that I might think it out loud and give it away…or that I might be faced with follow up questions like “are you sure?” and have to immediatly answer that question and fail to do the mental reservation bit of the first response…
 
D0UBTFIRE said:
I hate to say it, but I probably would be to nervous in a situation like that to pull off the mental reservation thing correctly and would probably end up flat out lieing…

I’m trying to imagine how I would react, and my gut says I wouldn’t want to hesitate, so that they didn’t think that I was lieing, but then the words don’t come to me quick enough to plan out and say something like “no, there are no catholics here” and then in my mind say (“who want to see you”). So I probably would end up responding quickly, and phrasing things in a way that makes the mental reservation difficult to accomplish in a logical way. I’m also afraid that I might think it out loud and give it away…or that I might be faced with follow up questions like “are you sure?” and have to immediatly answer that question and fail to do the mental reservation bit of the first response…
Click to expand...
The mental reservation thing is flat out lying. How is saying **“no, there are no catholics here” and then in my mind say (“who want to see you”). ** not lying? If mental reservations make a lie not a lie then one could do it in any situation: e.g.
Did you steal the money?
No, I didn’t steal the money (in my mind: “last week” but I did steal the money this week)
 
I thought the sinful sort of lying had something to do with withholding information that the one inquiring has the right to.

Unless you believe that soldiers of an oppressive regime are entitled to information that would result in the murder of innocent people (e.g. like in Nazi Germany), I don’t see why people are looking for excuses to be legalistic uptights here. :ehh:

With that said, yeah I’d lie to hide people of my own religion just as I’d hide people from any other religion suffering unjust persecution.

P.S.

In the case of our religion though, I’m more concerned if any of the more zealous types would actually want to hide in my place. You see one of the things I like to visualize for my life’s goal is to have a successful hobby shop… for geeks that is. 😛 I’m fearing they might not take kindly to hiding underneath all the uh “eccentric” merchandise I have in my basement. 😛
 
kage_ar said:
This is a situation that we all may face, and soon!!

The Catholic Church is declared illegal. She is forced to go underground - there is a “State Sponsored” Church that calls itself Catholic, but, that permits gay marriage and abortion rights, all those things that made the Church be branded as intolerant and illegal.

Would you hide Priests in your house? Would you lie when the US Soldiers come to your door, asking if you are hiding Catholics?
Click to expand...
Yes, I would hide priests in my house, and your darn right I would lie to the Goverement to protect them!

I’m troubled Kage-Would you? In order to be morally consistent, you would have to say nothing or not lie to the US goverment.

Why would you ask this question? Of course I would-as would most people. Do you think that the life of a jew in the holocaust was of somehow lesser value to that of a priest?!
 
I ask for two reasons, one, it is very easy to say “I would lie to the Nazis”, when all we know is from stories and movies. Chances are that 90% of the people reading this board would not be brave enough to hide Jews from the Nazis, let alone lie to those Nazis about it.

Second, I was hoping just one poster would say “what hide Catholics, I would BE in hiding!”
 
kage_ar said:
I ask for two reasons, one, it is very easy to say “I would lie to the Nazis”, when all we know is from stories and movies. Chances are that 90% of the people reading this board would not be brave enough to hide Jews from the Nazis, let alone lie to those Nazis about it.

Second, I was hoping just one poster would say “what hide Catholics, I would BE in hiding!”
Click to expand...
I disagree with you completely.

Kage, that’s a very low opinion of others. I have faith in my fellow people-I strongly think they would lie to the Germans! And I think that we would lie to the government to protect our fellow man. Jew, Catholic, Black, or white- or whatever. I know you would do the right thing-and I know other people of faith would as well.

But my question was also unanswered-yes or no, would you lie to hide a priest and not a jew?
 
Yes. I’d rather lie and save a life than be pious and uppitty and be an eccesory to murder
 
Rascalking said:
I disagree with you completely.

Kage, that’s a very low opinion of others. I have faith in my fellow people-I strongly think they would lie to the Germans! And I think that we would lie to the government to protect our fellow man. Jew, Catholic, Black, or white- or whatever. I know you would do the right thing-and I know other people of faith would as well.

But my question was also unanswered-yes or no, would you lie to hide a priest and not a jew?
Click to expand...
If I had been alive in Nazi germany, I would have been one of the first put into the camps, so, I’d not have been able to hide anyone.

If scnario two came up, I am a practicing Catholic so I would be in hiding.

For me, I have to think “would I have asked someone to lie to hide me, either from the Nazis or from a future oppression”. The honest answer, I hope and pray that I would have the strength not to ask someone to lie for me.
 
kage_ar said:
If I had been alive in Nazi germany, I would have been one of the first put into the camps, so, I’d not have been able to hide anyone.

If scnario two came up, I am a practicing Catholic so I would be in hiding.

For me, I have to think “would I have asked someone to lie to hide me, either from the Nazis or from a future oppression”. The honest answer, I hope and pray that I would have the strength not to ask someone to lie for me.
Click to expand...
I asked a yes or no question. I didn’t ask if you where alive in Nazi germany and not put into the camps. I didn’t ask secenrio two.

I asked, yes or no, would you lie to hide a priest and not a jew? Yes, or no. The honest answer than would be…
 
SugarMagnolia said:
Isn’t there something in the catechism that says if faced with a choice between a lesser and a greater sin, you must choose the lesser? Perhaps someone who knows the catechism can back this up.
Click to expand...
Hey Sugar!!! 🙂

Well, some really really really holy Catholics think it’s a sin to lie. So, I would not lie for those Catholics and make them accessories to sin. So, no I wouldn’t lie to hide some Catholics. What’s fair is fair! We don’t want to cost them their immortal souls.
It is a lie. Plain and simple. However, I believe telling the truth in this scenario is wrong because it means you are so scrupulously trying to avoid a sin of your own (the lie) that you would surrender innocent people to their persecutors. This is not a case of doing evil so that good may come of it. It is a matter of being forced to choose between a lesser and a greater evil.
Click to expand...
Well, maybe you’re right Sugar. Maybe the best and fair thing to do is to ask the Catholic in hiding if he or she thinks it would be a sin to lie. And basically, leave it up to them, that way, we don’t cause their souls to be in jeapordy.
 
Rascalking said:
I asked a yes or no question. I didn’t ask if you where alive in Nazi germany and not put into the camps. I didn’t ask secenrio two.

I asked, yes or no, would you lie to hide a priest and not a jew? Yes, or no. The honest answer than would be…
Click to expand...
I wake up every morning and pray to have the grace to avoid sin. Many days I fall. One day I could be strong and not sin, the next, I would tell the lie and sin. I don’t know, I am not yet perfect.
 
kage_ar said:
I wake up every morning and pray to have the grace to avoid sin. Many days I fall. One day I could be strong and not sin, the next, I would tell the lie and sin. I don’t know, I am not yet perfect.
Click to expand...
I hope this means you view Jews and Priests the same way. That innocent human life is just that-innocent human life.

For me, the answer is clear-I would openly lie to the goverment and to a Nazi to save either a Jewish family, a catholic priest, or, for that matter, any other group of innocent people from those trying to kill them.
 
All human life is to be treated with dignity.

I will not say “innocent” human life, because we are all born with the stain of original sin.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top