Would you lie to hide Catholics?

[LittleSoldier]

All human life is to be treated with dignity.

I will not say “innocent” human life, because we are all born with the stain of original sin.

But what about a baptised three year-old child? Isn’t she innocent? I’m not that clear on the Sacrament of Baptism, so I may have this all wrong but I thought one of the reasons we are baptised is to remove the stain of original sin. But I’m probably wrong.

Holy Mother, please keep all
unborn children safe today.

 

[LilyM]

My great-uncle, a priest, was imprisoned by Communists intent on obliterating his and every other faith from the country. No-one had to lie for him, no-one had to conceal him. I hope I would be as brave as he if called upon, and spare others from having to do either.

As for lying - realistically, it would be a minor venial sin under the circumstances, as opposed to the much graver sin of giving up innocent people for persecution.

But on the other hand can you honestly say God would ever put us in a situation where we are required to sin in one fashion or another, with no choice but to sin? He who so abominates ALL sin and calls on all of us not just to avoid mortal sin but to be perfect?

I cannot imagine He wouldn’t put a third option there for those who genuinely seek not to offend Him either by lying or by giving up innocents to persecutors. And often I have sought and found such third options when tempted to lie in other situations, and fared much better than I would have if I’d lied (since I rarely if ever lie convincingly).

 

[dominicandinah]

My great-uncle, a priest, was imprisoned by Communists intent on obliterating his and every other faith from the country. No-one had to lie for him, no-one had to conceal him. I hope I would be as brave as he if called upon, and spare others from having to do either.

As for lying - realistically, it would be a minor venial sin at best, as opposed to the sin of giving up innocent people for persecution.

But on the other hand can you honestly say God would ever put us in a situation where we are required to sin in one fashion or another? He who so abominates ALL sin and calls on all of us not just to avoid mortal sin but to be perfect?

I cannot imagine He wouldn’t put a third option there for those who genuinely seek not to offend Him either by lying or by giving up innocents to persecutors.

I don’t Lily…A lot of good Catholics and Protestants hid Jews during WWll. I’m sure at one point or another they had to lie about who was in their home/barn.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t Lily…A lot of good Catholics and Protestants hid Jews during WWll. I’m sure at one point or another they had to lie about who was in their home/barn.

Not necessarily. I’m sure the practice wasn’t to hide Jews in places where Nazis were prone to look, in fact the contrary, and therefore plenty of them simply weren’t searched or asked.

Anne Frank and her family hid in their attic for a long time before they were discovered, after all, precisely because they chose an unlikely hiding spot. And when they were found by the Nazis, no-one ever, to my knowledge, paid any particular attention to the friends who’d helped them hide. The Nazis had a huge amount of territory to control, and I’m sure didn’t literally search every house of every village, or question every person, or anything like. So I don’t imagine their story is at all unusual.

Then there were those who bartered, bribed or blackmailed the Nazis into leaving them alone (it’s not like they were immune to corruption of various kinds), or simply made friends with them so they wouldn’t be suspected.

Not to mention all sorts of more outlandish ruses I can think of - for example sending your 90-year-old deaf and senile granny (who genuinely doesn’t know that there are Jews in the house) to answer the door or something.

 

[kage_ar]

But what about a baptised three year-old child? Isn’t she innocent? I’m not that clear on the Sacrament of Baptism, so I may have this all wrong but I thought one of the reasons we are baptised is to remove the stain of original sin. But I’m probably wrong.

Holy Mother, please keep all
unborn children safe today.

A baptized three year old is below the age of reason. Chances of me encountering a lone baptized Jewish three year old who needs to be hidden from Nazis is really, really slim.

 

[Jea9]

Jimmy Akin addressed the lying to the Nazi’s in a CAL show this last summer. I can’t remember the date, so I can’t tell you where to look in the archive. But, according to Jimmy, the Catechism USED to say something to the effect of “the culpability of lying is different depending on the circumstances”. But now just blatantly says that it is wrong and a sin. I found this paragraph:

**2485 **By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

but there are several other paragraphs that address lying as well, that I didn’t look too hard at. I was looking for the one I thought Jimmy quoted.

So I guess each person would have to decide if they were comfortable with sinning to avoid another being injured. I don’t think that’s being self-righteous, but to say another is wrong to NOT lie is not good either.

But, I would not be hiding anyone nor would I (hopefully) be in hiding. Persecution is something that Christ told us we would face, and I’d hope to have the Faith to face the opposition.

 

[Rascalking]

A baptized three year old is below the age of reason. Chances of me encountering a lone baptized Jewish three year old who needs to be hidden from Nazis is really, really slim.

You’ve used this method of arguing several times. With all respect, Why don’t you just answer the question instead of saying it’s probably not possible to be in that situation?

I do NOT mean to gang up on you

 

[angelerulastiel]

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

I think that is the important part of this. By lying to someone who is looking to harm others you are not leading them into error.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Certainly the Nazis would have assumed that those who were hiding Jews would have the commonsense to lie to them about it:shrug:
Hardly surprising is it?
Nonetheless lying would be a better strategy than not answering, which would only make them search harder in the certain knowledge there were Jews there somewhere.

 

[apricot_yogurt]

True story. In WW2 Corrie Ten Boom, a Christian, hid some Jewish friends under her table, in a hole in the floor, under a rug.
Nazi soldiers burst in. “Where are you hiding the Jews?” they asked. Corrie found herself in all good conscience unable to lie. “Under the table!” she said and pointed.
The soldier could see that under the table was empty, and thought she was being faceitious. Then they left.
She didn’t lie, and God protected them.

 

[crazzeto]

Yes. I would be willing to hide catholics in my house. And I would be willing to protect them from the prying eyes of an evil government. Even if that requires “misdirecting” them by my statements.

Lying - in the broadest sense, may not be a sin. After all we might tell someone that they are not getting a birthday cake, knowing that you’ve already ordered one, just to preserve and enhance a surprise.
The commandment is to not, “bear false witness against your neighbor”. Hiding and protecting Catholics by “misdirecting” those seeking to kill them is not Lying because there is no “malicious intent” in the statements.

Peace
James

Great observation, and yes I would most certainly do everything I could to preserve the true church in such a senario. That said, I think we’re still a very long way away from going the way of 1500’s England. So while I wouldnt’ stop you from digging out those secrate rooms and passages in your home, I certainly won’t be urgently encouraging you to do so. I’m not so sure they’ll ever see usage.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Clearly any “true” Catholics would be willing to be martyred for their faith, so for the sake of their immortal souls I would hand them over to the authorities.

 

[kage_ar]

You’ve used this method of arguing several times. With all respect, Why don’t you just answer the question instead of saying it’s probably not possible to be in that situation?

I do NOT mean to gang up on you

Because words and terms matter. In the past few years, the meaning of words has been tossed aside. That is tragic, and it impacts our ability to effectlvely communitcate with each other.

I’m nowhere a perfect “speaker”, but, I do try my best to use words for what they mean, not what I want them to mean.

Also, because when we create impossible fairy tale scnarios, we make it easier for those tempted to relativism to slide deeper into that muddy place.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

True story. In WW2 Corrie Ten Boom, a Christian, hid some Jewish friends under her table, in a hole in the floor, under a rug.
Nazi soldiers burst in. “Where are you hiding the Jews?” they asked. Corrie found herself in all good conscience unable to lie. “Under the table!” she said and pointed.
The soldier could see that under the table was empty, and thought she was being faceitious. Then they left.
She didn’t lie, and God protected them.

But Corrie Ten Boom did lie to the Nazi authorities many times to protect Jews. It did bother her conscious a little to begin with but thankfully she got over it.

 

[JRKH]

Great observation, and yes I would most certainly do everything I could to preserve the true church in such a senario. That said, I think we’re still a very long way away from going the way of 1500’s England. So while I wouldnt’ stop you from digging out those secrate rooms and passages in your home, I certainly won’t be urgently encouraging you to do so. I’m not so sure they’ll ever see usage.

Thanks,

I am curious to know why the OP thinks we could soon be faced with such a thing in the US .

Peace
James

 

[kage_ar]

Thanks,

I am curious to know why the OP thinks we could soon be faced with such a thing in the US .

Peace
James

The Catholic Church could go head to head with the govm’t over moral issues and be declared criminal under “hate crimes”. Just watch,

 

[JRKH]

The Catholic Church could go head to head with the govm’t over moral issues and be declared criminal under “hate crimes”. Just watch,

hmmm…
Given that Islam has not been declaed such even with the attacks of 9-11, I’d say the odds of the Catholic Church suffering such a fate are pretty much nill

Can’t see ANY christian church group or any christian legislator supporting such a move. In fact, such a move would be in direct violation of the Consitution and so - were it ever tried - there would be two immediate responses. One lawsuits and two overflowing jails, neither of which the government could afford.

peace
James

 

[plan19]

Clearly any “true” Catholics would be willing to be martyred for their faith, so for the sake of their immortal souls I would hand them over to the authorities.

If God chose that for me, then I only hope that I could muster up the fortitude to do as he wanted and follow in the footsteps of St. Paul.

Colossians 1:24: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church…]

 

[JRKH]

Just watched a program on EWTN yesterday about Karol Wojtyła (John Paul II) during the war years in Poland.
In this program the archbishop in Poland used a number of subtrefuges to protect his “underground” seminarians, one of whom was the future pope. One such method was to issue them “false Identity papers”, in other words papers that would “Lie” to the Germans as to who these people actually were.

When the Church is underground and threatened, the real truth of Christ’s message is brought out. It is less about following the “letter of the Law” (to lie or not to lie) than about the intent of the Law written on our hearts. (And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. Mt 12:7)

Peace
James

 

[Sofa_King_What]

To those that would lie and misdirect (not that there’s a difference), would you hide away homosexuals and lie about them being in your house if they were hiding from brtutilization in the streets (that is, if western society came down on homosexuality and started persecuting them hardcore)?