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lovesMary
Guest
I was curious, is it is the hope of anyone here eventually have the Church totally revert back to pre-Vatican II liturgies, eventually eliminating the newer form of the Mass.
Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?
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Angel_Bradford
Guest
Absolutely not!!!
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
I for one hope this never happens. I believe there is room in our Church for both. What people fail to recognize is that mass in the vernacular all over the world is a great help in evangelizing, especially in less developed nations where education is not as good as we are blessed to have. It is an immense help in evangelization for the people to understand what is going on. I am not saying that TLM does not have a place in the Church. What I am saying is that the Novus Ordo also has a place in the Church. Lets look beyond our noses and see this in a world perspective rather than in just our own little cocoon.
Prayers and Blessings
Deacon Ed B
Prayers and Blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Aragorn1
Guest
No. As Deacon Ed said, there’s room for both. Summorum Pontificum decreed that the Novus Ordo is the Ordinary Form of the Roman Missal, and the Tridentine mass is the Extraordinary form. Both forms should continue exist, and there will be no problem whatsoever as long as they are both celebrated according to their respective rubrics. There’s no reason why they can’t coexist, and no reason why they shouldn’t. Both should be available to those who desire them.
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markadm
Guest
I too believe there is room for both, but I would like to see an honest evaluation of the novus ordo Missae, and a resacralisation of it, for want of another word. Certain elements could be reformed/reintroduced from the TLM, e.g. bring back the Prayers at the foot of the Altar! 
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Brian777
Guest
What about the fact that the Institute of Christ the King has had overwhelming success in saying the TLM in places such as central and North Africa?
I for one think that if everybody would simply study the basic differences between the TLM and NO theology, everyone would soon see that we are attending a Mass Luther would be proud of. Not a good thing if you ask me…
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Spiller
Guest
If the Church actually did this, I would likely follow, but it’s a ludicrous hypothetical. It ain’t gonna happen.
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Spiller
Guest
Nothing at all wrong (or inferior) about the Pauline Mass theology.What about the fact that the Institute of Christ the King has had overwhelming success in saying the TLM in places such as central and North Africa?
I for one think that if everybody would simply study the basic differences between the TLM and NO theology, everyone would soon see that we are attending a Mass Luther would be proud of. Not a good thing if you ask me…
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Brian777
Guest
Ok folks lets remember that the question was if we would care for a phasing out of the NO. Obviously a sudden removal of it would be disastrous…JUST as the sudden removal of the TLM was disastrous in 1969. Also it doesnt really matter what we think of a phasing out, because our Holy father has already begun a slow yet sure process if revampin the NO into pretty much a vernacular TLM. They have already retranslated the Canon and the pope would like to see more versus deum masses im sure (he said so in an interview i watched).
May God speed his plans and bring them to fulfillment!
May God speed his plans and bring them to fulfillment!
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Spiller
Guest
I think you’re right, although I don’t think the EF is any sort of gold standard that is beyond reproach nor is it inherently “better” than the Pauline Mass.I too believe there is room for both, but I would like to see an honest evaluation of the novus ordo Missae, and a resacralisation of it, for want of another word. Certain elements could be reformed/reintroduced from the TLM, e.g. bring back the Prayers at the foot of the Altar!
As we stand right now, if the Pauline Mass were simply celebrated per the rubrics, that would be a huge step forward. Add to that the little things that our current Pope is communicating by example and I think we have a GORGEOUS Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
I really hope his Masses here in the USA are “by the book.” That would really make an impression in this day and age…
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Brian777
Guest
read this…immaculata-one.com/section_15.html and you will understand. Almost all of the changes to the NO were changes that Luther and the Anglican heretics had changed in their masses in the 1500s. No wonder when you consider the fact that 6 Lutheran ministers and a Free mason “Cardinal” were incharge of writing the NO…
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lovesMary
Guest
So, Brian, you believe that these new changes are a beginning of this process? We will keep seeing gradual changes which will ultimately lead back to a Mass very similar to the TLM?
Do you think that this will all end up with a total return to the pre-Vatican II Mass?
Do you think that this will all end up with a total return to the pre-Vatican II Mass?
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Spiller
Guest
That’s simply not true. In fact the Pope has not instituted any changes – but he does appear to be a stickler for following the extant rubrics (good!) and he does appear to appreciate taking advantage of the existing options within the Pauline Mass that allow for the most solemnity and reverence (good!)Ok folks lets remember that the question was if we would care for a phasing out of the NO. Obviously a sudden removal of it would be disastrous…JUST as the sudden removal of the TLM was disastrous in 1969. Also it doesnt really matter what we think of a phasing out, because our Holy father has already begun a slow yet sure process if revampin the NO into pretty much a vernacular TLM. They have already retranslated the Canon and the pope would like to see more versus deum masses im sure (he said so in an interview i watched).
May God speed his plans and bring them to fulfillment!
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Spiller
Guest
Do you really believe this silly nonsense? Honestly, do you? If you do, then you would have to concede the Church (including the Pope and the rest of the magisterium) allows it – as it takes place – at least in your mind.
So if the Church (and not just isolated bishops or priests) is capable of making such a horrid and prolonged mistake in your eyes, why on Earth would you remain a Catholic Christian?!?
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StevenFrancis
Guest
What I hope to see before I die is:
Novus Ordo - in vernacular
Novus Order - in Latin
TLM
Avaiable in every Diocese in the world, if not every Parish. No phasing, and no forcing. Just please make them ALL available. For starters, we need Priests who can speak Latin, (at least in the U.S.). They’re just now teaching it again in Seminary from what I understand. I’ve only been Catholic since 2005, but apparently after Vatican II, the clergy in the U.S. just went absolutely nutso with the vernacular Mass, to the exclusion of TLM, or even NO in Latin. Holy Father says that’s not was intended, and the U.S. Bishops goofed up with their interpretation of Vat. II. It’s very hard to re-cage a tiger. I’m hoping the Pope continue to clarify and interpret the documents of that council. I do know Americans love choice. If these masses were all made readily available, they would all find their adherents, and we’d likely be more unified as a Church.
Anyway…Peace to all,
Steven
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Spiller
Guest
Actually for starters we need a great many more priests – particularly if they are going to celebrate the EF in many parishes that will have tiny audiences.
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sphilomena
Guest
He is referring to the commission that came up with the NO. There’s been plenty written about Bugnini being suspected of being a Mason, and the Lutherans and other non-Catholics were observers at Vat II; not sure if they were part of the commission, maybe so. It’s all well documented, he’s not making it up. You have to read the history.
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saint_rafael
Guest
Spiller,
I think reality has already proven what a disaster the Novus Ordo Mass has been. The Statistics never lie and they give the hard, cold, sad facts.
Mass Attendace in U.S.
1957: 78%
2007: 23%
Seminarians for the priesthood:
1965: 48,000
2007: 4,200
The Mass has always grown organically since it was codified in Trent. Minor changes in prayers and subtractions.
The New Mass was a complete revolution and break from Tradition. Never before had the priest faced the people, and so many prayers and gestures completely removed.
This was a admistrative decision by Pope Paul VI. There was no infallibility associated with this move or anything to do with dogma. Catholics are free to agree or disagree with the governing decisions of Popes. Pope Paul’s Mass will go down as one of the biggest blunders in history of the Church.
I think reality has already proven what a disaster the Novus Ordo Mass has been. The Statistics never lie and they give the hard, cold, sad facts.
Mass Attendace in U.S.
1957: 78%
2007: 23%
Seminarians for the priesthood:
1965: 48,000
2007: 4,200
The Mass has always grown organically since it was codified in Trent. Minor changes in prayers and subtractions.
The New Mass was a complete revolution and break from Tradition. Never before had the priest faced the people, and so many prayers and gestures completely removed.
This was a admistrative decision by Pope Paul VI. There was no infallibility associated with this move or anything to do with dogma. Catholics are free to agree or disagree with the governing decisions of Popes. Pope Paul’s Mass will go down as one of the biggest blunders in history of the Church.
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Brian777
Guest
Have you heard of the new translation of the missal? Im not sayin its happening tomorrow! Im sayin its a good long road, but God will get us there.
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Brian777
Guest
Thankyou! thankyou very much!. Now im not saying the NO is completely heretical or anything like that. As long as true orthodox Catholics and their priests say the No the way it was meant to be said (Versus deum, in Latin, and with gregorian chant) we will have a valid mass. But the facts are clear, the TLM is just more clear on theolgy and it is bringing about many new vocsations whereever it appers
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